Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
If you're going to edit your movie, I strongly suggest against it. Let's face it. You're not Shaolin Productions. Unless you've got a really decent amount of experience, you shouldn't edit movies. Not even if it's to add music to it. Timing is really difficult, and it takes a long time before you're able to properly pull off such mixing. Cutting out parts of the game where you're waiting is not a good idea. Cutting out parts of the game where there are status screens that remain visible for a long time, but can't be skipped, can be a good idea in very rare cases (e.g. the "new weapon" screens in Rockman 2), but shouldn't be done in tool-assisted speedruns. Cutting out actual gameplay is completely out of the question. Your run will be "different" than conventional runs, but consider if your proposed changes will actually be for the best. Wouldn't your run end up like a cheap fragvid on own-age.com? There are many people who try to enhance their videos, but only a very select few who are able to do this and at the same time entertain their audience. Music and other editing makes your video more personal, and thus, there's a large chance that your potential watchers will be turned off because they can't identify themselves with it. If you make a speedrun, whether tool-assisted or not, you're best off positioning yourself for people who enjoy watching runs without these sort of additions, and prefer the original soundtrack of a game over another layer of music added on top of that.
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
I doubt that this will be the same thing over and over. Atleast if what you say is true. Still though I don't like the sound of AVI editing to shorten down the watching time. It somewhat kills the feeling. Please be keen to provide the regular zmv/smv along with the avi. Not only because it's unedited, but also because it's alot smaller than the AVI.
Former player
Joined: 7/12/2004
Posts: 524
Location: USA
Yes, my vid will feel different. That's what I want, though. Not the same thing done over and over.
If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Seriously going by your logic on editing the AVI, I could just make a movie showing the Space Colony escape, then showing me beating Mother Brain and escaping. Yeah, I just skipped the whole game, but it's faster then any other Super Metroid run. I even got 100% Items and you didn't even need to see me collect them, because thats too much waiting.
Working on: Command and Conquer PSX Nod Campaign
Player (71)
Joined: 8/24/2004
Posts: 2562
Location: Sweden
Extreme explnation.
Former player
Joined: 5/31/2004
Posts: 375
Three thoughts here: 1) I think cutting out the waiting would interrupt the flow of the game more than leaving it in: There's a segmented MM2 run out there somewhere that does something similar (only between levels), and it just feels "wrong," because I've played it so many times and just expect the new weapon screen to show up. 2) I'm with Kyrsimys on the music: the ambiance is a large part of Metroid, and adding in music would radically change the feel of the game, even if it was done well. There is/was an SMW vid circulating that used music, and it seriously distracted from the actual playing. 3) Flamewars. "OMG he admited he edited teh .aiv! it's FAKE! FAAAAK!" We don't want any.
Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands
nifboy wrote:
1) I think cutting out the waiting would interrupt the flow of the game more than leaving it in: There's a segmented MM2 run out there somewhere that does something similar (only between levels), and it just feels "wrong," because I've played it so many times and just expect the new weapon screen to show up.
I made that run. The weapon screens are cut out because I wanted it to be a series of runs on individual levels rather than it looking like a full game speedrun. It was partially to accentuate the fact that it was a segmented run rather than a single-segment run. Looking back on it, I probably shouldn't have done it, though. I'll keep that in mind next time I ever make a speedrun (I actually have an unannounced project that I'm working on).
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
michael flatley wrote:
I'm operating under the assumption that a re-record feature in zsnes will never come because there are still some synchonization issues that have persisted for years now.
Wrong! ZSNES once had the best movie recording feature of all emulators. My longest recording was a 51 hour (yes, you read it right) movie during 1 month and it STILL was perfect and without sync errors at all after I playbacked it! Sadly ZSNES has changed the movie recorder after version 1.01 because the older versions had very large movie files (about 5 MB per hour) and they wanted to compress them like snes9x so they changed the movie recorder, and this was (IMO) the biggest mistake they did so far since the the new movie recorder has so much sync errors (because of compression of the .zmv files) that you can't record longer movies or trust to the recording in sacrifice your time to be sure it will be in sync. I myself would recommend to take the older movie recorder (best and most tested of me and some of my internet-buddies is ZSNES v0.989c) and try to improve it from this version since the newer movie recorder are in every version a little different and have many more new sync errors than fixes (only in movie recording, since all other features have been improved). In compressed movies snes9x is best so far (compared to the extremely small sice of the movies its a great work the programmers did) thanks to the many inofficial programmer like nitsuja and other, because of you guys this emulator has become the best in movie-making (even I myself agree now since I made tons of movie on ZSNES before) but in picture and movements ZSNES is still the best so far.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
michael flatley wrote:
I don't need re-records if I'm just releasing an avi. ... Thanks for the input guys but avi it is...
Well then I guess there's no point in us yelling at you to do otherwise, but you should understand why the people at this site would want a non-AVI version also available. I think at some point one of us will want to make our own faster video (faster than Teri's current one, I mean) in our own way using these tricks, and you mentioned that you were willing to make short demo videos in a format of our choice, so could you please (when you're done with the avi) make a little .smv movie clip of each of the big tricks/glitches that nobody else has done/used before? (BTW, isn't using ZSNES and relying solely on video editing to piece the frames together a hell of a lot more effort than necessary? And ZSNES picture quality isn't better unless you have your Snes9x settings wrong, except in some very few games ZSNES emulates better which Super Metroid is not among.)
Saturn wrote:
Sadly ZSNES has changed the movie recorder after version 1.01 because the older versions had very large movie files (about 5 MB per hour) and they wanted to compress them like snes9x so they changed the movie recorder, and this was (IMO) the biggest mistake they did so far since the the new movie recorder has so much sync errors (because of compression of the .zmv files)
Are you saying ZSNES originally recorded more than just the button input for each frame? Because regular compression does not change anything, just as zip compressing it afterwards doesn't change it, and Snes9x does not compress its movie data at all anyway. (edited for clarification and fixing a typo)
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
Guys, drop the re-record feature. I know it is the better option but it is too late. I've put in way too much time and I'm not going to start over again. My schedule is getting increasingly busy and I'm doing my best just to finish this thing. Sorry :O( As for editing the avi, I'll again say just wait and see what I do with this. I know editing like the back of my hand. There is a large audience here who really wants the feel of the original game to be intact but I feel there is a larger audience out there who would appreciate what I'm doing more. I'm also strapped for hard drive space and honestly don't think I can hold 2+ hours of HQ avi on my two drives. If I didn't edit out all the waiting in this game I'd have to make quality sacrifices. nitsuja, I'll make demos of whatever tricks you want. In fact I'll even show how some of the seemingly hard tricks can be done with little effort in a legit console run. I'll also create a walkthrough of every trick in the game and will explain them all. BTW, can anyone here clear the gap leading to Kraid's lair without wall jumping? Just a tease :O)
Player (206)
Joined: 2/18/2005
Posts: 1451
nitsuja wrote:
Are you saying ZSNES originally recorded more than just the button input for each frame? Because regular compression does not change anything, just as zip compressing it afterwards doesn't change it, and Snes9x does not compress its movie data at all anyway.
Hmmm strange, then maybe ZSNES recorded really more than just player input don't know, if you understand something of hex-editing tags or whatever, you could just analyze a zmv file of zsnesv0.989c (for example one of my movie files) with a hexeditor, because I don't know. I only know that I can trust to this emulator in every way since all my movies I made on this emualtor stayed deathly safe in sync no matter what game and how long.
See my perfect 100% movie-walkthroughs of the best RPG games on http://www.freewebs.com/saturnsmovies/index.htm Current TAS project (with new videos): Super Metroid Redesign, any% speedrun
Post subject: Re: Super Metroid 100% by MF
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
michael flatley wrote:
13) Murder beam
Please, no murder beam. It SUCKS. BIG. FREAKING. TIME. It also makes the run slower, so if nothing else, that alone should be a reason to not to use it.
Banned User
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
michael flatley wrote:
Guys, drop the re-record feature. I know it is the better option but it is too late. I've put in way too much time and I'm not going to start over again. My schedule is getting increasingly busy and I'm doing my best just to finish this thing. Sorry :O( As for editing the avi, I'll again say just wait and see what I do with this. I know editing like the back of my hand. There is a large audience here who really wants the feel of the original game to be intact but I feel there is a larger audience out there who would appreciate what I'm doing more. I'm also strapped for hard drive space and honestly don't think I can hold 2+ hours of HQ avi on my two drives. If I didn't edit out all the waiting in this game I'd have to make quality sacrifices.
I think that the problem with what you are doing is that this is the wrong site for it. You are making something completely different than what this site is about. The movies in this site have certain principles. One of the strongest principles is that videos (ie. the avi files) are genuine unedited screen captures of what the emulator is showing (except for the few textual warnings at the beginning of each video). That is, the videos show that "this game can theoretically be played like this in an original game console if we assume a human would have superhuman reflexes and could see into the future". In other words, these are tool-assisted speedruns. What you are trying to do is basically a music video, not a tool-assisted speedrun. Take some cool shots of the game, piece them together, replace the audio track with a cool piece of music and presto, we have a nice music video based on a computer game. That may be nice, but it's not what this site is about. You can't blame people for not liking this idea at all. It's basically an affront to all that this site is about. It does exactly what this site is trying so hard to prove wrong: That we are not editing the videos and that they are genuine tool-assisted runs. It's not about "waiting to see how it turns out". It doesn't matter how it looks. What matters is that it's against the fundamental principles of tool-assisted runs.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
So you care more about how it is presented than the content? I'm going through the game no different than any other emulated run author. In fact I'm not even using half of the tools I'm seeing used here. All I'm using is savestates and slow-mo when it is absolutely necessary. I understand what this site is about and I regretfully accept that my vid won't be posted here. I was, however, hoping that I'd get some valid advice on how to improve my run. Choosing zsnes was a decision I made a very long time ago and now it appears that this decision was wrong. I can't start over now, though, so if anyone has any advice relating to glitches/tricks in this game I'll use them and present them in the format I'm stuck with. I'm fine with someone else taking all the tricks from my vid and producing a better speedrun than my own.
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
Not really. I'm sure if I studied the format for .zmv I'd be able to whip up some sort of conversion script.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
Hey, if anyone could code some sort of tool or find some sort of process to splice zmv's I'd be willing to have a look at it. BTW, I've made it back to my ship in under 14 minutes. This means that I've already shaved off as much time against her run as the previous record and I've still got a long way to go. More good news is that I may not have to refuel at my ship. I've done some tests and I think I can make it to the next energy tank with exactly 1 health :O)
Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2630
Splicing files is easy, I was talking about a .zmv -> .smv converter.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day, Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
If someone can post a savestate (zsnes or snes9x) anywhere after the defeat of Motherbrain I'd really appreciate it.
ventuz
He/Him
Player (125)
Joined: 10/4/2004
Posts: 940
Why not take Teri's movie? Turbo tab thru until motherbrain is defeated, push "Movie Stop", then you could control from where you "Movie Stop" the playback.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
Movie won't play in the version I'm using. Also, I found a savestate online. Can't do what I was thinking of doing :O( Thanks anyway.
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1310)
Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
You haven't replied to my last post before this. I'm just saying this because we posted at almost the exact same time and the thread has since moved to a new page so I thought maybe you missed it.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
I replied. I said I'd release .smv or .zmv files of whatever segments of my run people request.
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Saturn wrote:
Hmmm strange, then maybe ZSNES recorded really more than just player input don't know, if you understand something of hex-editing tags or whatever, you could just analyze a zmv file of zsnesv0.989c (for example one of my movie files) with a hexeditor, because I don't know. I only know that I can trust to this emulator in every way since all my movies I made on this emualtor stayed deathly safe in sync no matter what game and how long.
Well, maybe the problem isn't that the movie format is flawed, but that some feature that was added to make the emulation more accurate or stable made it harder to use the same button presses the same way reliably.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 29
Location: Finland
There seems to be a 100% Tool-Assisted Super Metroid Run at archive.org if someone wants to see that. (sorry though if this is old news, just wanted to point it out) There isn't any zmv file though, only the avi which is 307MB. [/offtopic] Sorry Michael, but what you are planning to do doesn't sound very appealing to me either. Even if you said you aren't going to make it for this site, who would watch a "music video" of super metroid? Well i would :) Just out of curiosity, but would i enjoy it? I doubt.
Joined: 2/24/2005
Posts: 100
You people are aware that the avi will be the 100% run all the way through, right? I'm not just doing random tricks to music. The fact that music is playing doesn't make this merely a "music video". It will be a run just like any other except I'm doing more with it. Music is just one aspect, I'm planning even more but won't mention everything. It will be entertaining and will require more than a few viewings to catch everything. Anyway, I'm really baffled at all the negative feedback I'm getting even before the release. All I can say is download the vid when it comes out and if you still hate it I'm sorry :O/ All the new stuff I've come up with should make it worth the download no matter what your viewing preference.
Editor, Active player (297)
Joined: 3/8/2004
Posts: 7469
Location: Arzareth
michael flatley wrote:
The fact that music is playing
means that it contradicts with http://tasvideos.org/MovieRecordingConventions.html. What about releasing a WIP, btw?