in order for the glitch to work you need to press perpendicular to the direction you're facing for exactly 1 frame when link is exactly 5 frames from the block or edge of the screen. it doesnt work with horizontal blocks because when you enter the block in question it only allows you to travel halfway through the block.
So is the first quest in the works now? And why isn't there a media file of that movie yet?
What input do you need exactly for the the trick to work. It seemed sometimes I saw you press perpendicular to the block for more than 1 frame and somtimes I think I even saw away from block. And do you have to press perpendicular exactly right before you touch the block?
Also why can't you use use this to warp up through a horizontal row of blocks?
jprofit22 explained the glitch questions pretty well.
As for a new first quest run... I've been discussing and looking at possible routes for some time, and plan on eventually making a new first quest run. I have some other TASing plans first though, and I'm not in a hurry. The quality of the current first quest run is very good, it just doesn't use the glitch to the fullest extent.
Why can you only go halfway through a horizontal row? Take 1 block for example you can glitch from the bottom to the top of it right? Why does it matter if there's blocks left or right of it?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Why can you only go halfway through a horizontal row? Take 1 block for example you can glitch from the bottom to the top of it right? Why does it matter if there's blocks left or right of it?
If you are standing right on the middle of a block, you can move to the left, right and bottom, but not to the top.
Ah ic, but I swear there was one part in a dungeon with a middle block that makes it such that if come up from the bottom then you have to go left or right, but he went to the top and I don't think he pushed it either. Was that a special case or something or maybe he did push it?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Ah ic, but I swear there was one part in a dungeon with a middle block that makes it such that if come up from the bottom then you have to go left or right, but he went to the top and I don't think he pushed it either. Was that a special case or something or maybe he did push it?
If you are talking about this:
then yeah, that's possible... but Link moves diagonally, which I said was possible. You can move fully onto the stone, go left, move fully onto the stone above, and move right, to pass the stone in the middle. Diagonal movement through blocks is possible. You can't pass a long horizontal or vertical line of blocks though.
Ya I rewatched it and realized what he did.
There was also this part that happened twice where he went from the top left part of a diagonal to the right side so he didn't come from underneath. How does this work, I thought you needed to come from underneath to get halfway into the block already?
I was wondering if this would be faster in the last dungeon. At about frame 80,100, It was a room with the most random block placement, he entered from the left and had to bomb to the top. I was thinking you could bomb it sooner by placing the bomb the through the blocks then walking around, then you wouldn't have to wait on the bomb, but it would be a delay to drop the bomb, hard to say which is faster.
Also, when touching the guys on the overworld which move after you touch them, why not glitch into them so you walk down the stairs right away for getting into dungeon 2.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
There was also this part that happened twice where he went from the top left part of a diagonal to the right side so he didn't come from underneath. How does this work, I thought you needed to come from underneath to get halfway into the block already?
The thing here is that he is first half inside the block from above. Moving down is indeed not possible. At the right however, you are halfway at the under side of a block, which is a perfectly allowed place to move, even without glitching. So here, instead of making use of that allowed half before doing the glitch, you use it right after it (hope that makes sense to you... otherwise I'll try to explain it better).
Spider-Waffle wrote:
I was wondering if this would be faster in the last dungeon. At about frame 80,100, It was a room with the most random block placement, he entered from the left and had to bomb to the top. I was thinking you could bomb it sooner by placing the bomb the through the blocks then walking around, then you wouldn't have to wait on the bomb, but it would be a delay to drop the bomb, hard to say which is faster.
I tested it, and your suggestion is 12 frames slower if it were possible. It is however not possible, since the blue wizzrobe will be blocking this route no matter how much you luckmanipulate.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
Also, when touching the guys on the overworld which move after you touch them, why not glitch into them so you walk down the stairs right away for getting into dungeon 2.
The answer to this will be less satisfactory... since your suggestion is actually 2 frames faster. It's not something I haven't noticed... but maybe when Morrison or I timed it, we made a mistake or something. Certainly not something that hasn't been thought of... I was under the impression that it would be equally fast. The reason why the answer might be less satisfactory, is that while it's certainly something that can be done faster, it saves only 2 frames, and it's a game where randomness is affected highly. It means that there are 2 frames more to manipulate... but also that if you aren't able to get the randomness you want within 2 frames of manipulation, that it's not a possible improvement to the run. 2 frames is rather little.... and I just tested it, and I wasn't able to complete the second room any faster than in the published run... so while it's a theoretical improvement, it's not something that would have made this particular run faster.
Edit: I'll make this last point a bit clearer. In the published run, Link waits 4 frames before entering the second room to get the enemies in the directions he wants. Now that he enters the dungeon 2 frames faster, Link will have to wait 6 frames to get than same randomness, this nullifies the 2 frame improvement. It would have been possible that by entering the dungeon 2 frames faster, Link wouldn't have to wait at all, or would only have to wait 1 frame in order to get the good randomness... in which case this would put the new version 5 or 6 frames ahead of the published version. In the next room, this 6 frame improvement could in a similar way become a 11 frame improvement, or lose all the gained frames (in fact, it could even become slower than the published run).
In this case however, the 2 frame improvement was lost at the very first room where luck had to be manipulated.
Oh I thought you might not have done the glitch into lvl2 because you need to lose a heart.
What about for getting the power bracelet?
I'm confused how you glitch through those blocks since you go through to the right. Do you use the glitch move yourself down or right?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Oh I thought you might not have done the glitch into lvl2 because you need to lose a heart.
What about for getting the power bracelet?
I'm confused how you glitch through those blocks since you through the right. Do you use the glitch move you down or right?
For the power bracelet, the glitch is applied in the published run. The glitch is done there from above, at the right half of the block (if I'm not mistaken).
So the glitch in that case and for the forward slash diagonals, you glitch down then pass through to the side?
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Well, I started working on an improvement to the 1st quest any% that includes screen scroll glitching. Here's a WIP to the entrance of level 8:
http://npshare.de/files/6cd7fa51/Zelda % 201st % 20quest 20glitched.fcm %
One major problem that stands out to me is the necessity to take the left 50 coin on the first money game. I would have had to wait over 75 frames to get a 50 in the middle there, which needless to say is much slower than getting one of the other two, the left one in this case being the fastest. I was very disappointed in this but what can I do. Level 3 is pretty damn optimized so there's not much more I can do.
The only problem I'm having now is trying to manipulate the enemy spawn locations in level 8. I have yet to learn the cause of different spawns in dungeons and I've tried a few things so far. If anyone has any information pertinent to this I would love to hear from you. :)
1. Does there exist a Zelda 1 (NES) TAS (or even a non-TA speedrun) video that does not include any game restart sequences by using Up+A at the inventory screen or intentional deaths?
2. Would such a movie be accepted in a separate category even if it did not beat the current record that includes game restart sequences?
I don't know wether there is. There ought to be though, so if you keep searching, you might just find it. Such a movie would likely not be accepted though, since it merely adds pointless repetition to the movie with nothing else. Why would you even want such a movie to begin with?
1. The oldest Zelda TAS didn't use it http://tasvideos.org/659M.html.
I'm also fairly certain that the movie which obsoleted it also didn't use the restart sequence http://tasvideos.org/658M.html.
I'm not sure if the old SDA runs are somewhere... the current one does use up+A resetting, but old ones didn't.
2. You never know... but I personally think it's very unlikely that it would be accepted. There is a first quest, second quest, first quest swordless and a hack TAS for the game. One can think up countless of possible categories... one might for instance say that taking damage is then also not allowed. There have also been talks about 100% TASes and so on. You never know how the votes go though... if you just want to see it, then I say go for it. If you would only be happy if it got published, then making it would be taking quite a guess.
I, like many other people would like to see a 100% LoZ TAS. First of all, I'd like to encourage discussion in order to define this.
One thing that will need to be considered is the purchase of items, since you have a mere 255 rupee limit, the cash will need to be carefully micromanaged. Of course, there's the money-making game which is probably the best source of cash, but it will require several trips, unless enough cash drop manipulation can help reduce this.
Let's see if I can get a potential list:
Sword, upgraded fully
All heart containers
Arrows and Magic Arrows
All dungeon maps and compasses
Bombs, and all upgrades
Bait
Letter -> exchange for one of blue/red potion
Blue Candle and Red Candle
Magic Shield
Bow
Boomerang and Magic Boomerang
Raft
Ladder
Bracelet
Flute
Magic Wand
Magic Book
Magic Key
Blue Ring and Red Ring
Now, that's a pretty huge list. I've probably missed one or two items, but I think that's everything. Obviously, lesser duplicates of upgraded items can be skipped in order to get the best version of an item (skip Boomerang and get Magic Boomerang, for example). Some might argue the maps and compasses need not be collected, but for a true 100% I would get them.
With a 100% TAS there will be a lot more damage boosting for sure, since there will be more health to play with, as well as a defence increase from the rings.
I guess we should start by looking at 100% runs for other Zelda games. As I recall, maps and compasses aren't required for the other games and thus shouldn't be here either. Bomb upgrades are similar, though it's much less tedious to get them in this game than, say, A Link to the Past, so I would be okay with getting them. I don't recall what other runs have done regarding sword upgrades, but I can't imagine it would be faster here to skip one and be doing less damage to everything. The letter should be acquired and shown to the old lady, but I don't think medicine should have to be bought, although other than money concerns, it wouldn't be that out of the way. I agree that the upgraded items (ring, candle, bomerang) can be gotten without the preceeding versions. So, my definition of 100% would be all subscreen items (final versions, letter but not medicine) and all heart containers, maybe bomb upgrades. Maps and compasses only if the precedent has been set with previous Zelda runs.
As I recall, maps and compasses aren't required for the other games and thus shouldn't be here either.
Required where? I know there are 100% Zelda runs at SDA, but as far as I know there have been none accepted (or even submitted?) here.
Even so, especially with a series as large as this what might be acceptable for one game may not be acceptable for another. Why could a Wii game effect the rulling of a NES game?
Joined: 8/15/2005
Posts: 1934
Location: Mullsjö, Sweden
I personally find maps and compasses to be kinda lame in 100% definitions. As I think that it should be stuff that are worth getting, stuff that will make your character stronger/better.
And I don't think that you should need to get both the upgraded and the nonupgraded items in this case. As when the upgraded item is obtained, there's no way to see that you have the lvl 1 item anymore. Also the fact that the blue ring and candle can still "be obtained" whenever you want.
You guys do realize that this will just be collecting more stuff... no actual significant changes in the gameplay...
- It's basically never worth to switch to boomerang, candle, magic wand, to defeat stuff...
- A lot of stuff needs to be bought (picking up money from gambling isn't particularly entertaining): bomb upgrades, red potion, magic shield, meat (does this need to be bought again after it's used?), arrows etc (this all is also stuff that's never used)
- Those who think the extra heart containers will enable more damage boosts can't be farther from the truth. A damage boost is not worth having your health refilled by the triforce. Therefore, the more hearts containers you have, the more health you need to be looking for after a reset (as you will start with 3 filled only), and damage boosts are out of the question then. Even if there's no reset after a level, I don't think more boosts are possible, since as said, all health needs to be refilled before the next triforce piece.
A blue ring MIGHT help with boosts, but it's never worth it if picking up the red ring is enough (which can only be done at the very end of the game).
- Magic key will avoid some interesting fights (although ok, there are some new rooms with extra pickups, especially if map and compas are needed).
Anyway, most importantly, is there even anyone remotely interested in TASing it? (As you might be able to tell, I'm sure as hell not going to :P)
As I recall, maps and compasses aren't required for the other games and thus shouldn't be here either.
Required where? I know there are 100% Zelda runs at SDA, but as far as I know there have been none accepted (or even submitted?) here.
Even so, especially with a series as large as this what might be acceptable for one game may not be acceptable for another. Why could a Wii game effect the rulling of a NES game?
I guess I was thinking of SDA. I brought up other runs as a possible starting point for determining 100%. For example, if it had already been decided that collecting the maps and compasses in Link to the Past was pointless and shouldn't be part of the 100% definition, then we could exclude them here for many of the same reasons that would have been outlined when the previous ruling had been made. However, that doesn't mean we'd have to adhere to that. Nothing's stopping us from deciding that every room must be visited or something, even if that's never been part of an 100% definition before.
Baxter: can you give a ballpark estimate how much longer a 100% run would be if it were, say, all items and heart containers? We looking at something like 5 or so extra minutes or something closer to 15+ (thus almost doublign the length of the any % )?
As I think that it should be stuff that are worth getting, stuff that will make your character stronger/better.
Yeh, but what makes a character "better" is a little too subjective. Some players don't like to pick up the magic bible because it just produces more flames for Link to stumble into, for instance.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
Let's see if I can get a potential list:
Sword, upgraded fully
All heart containers
Arrows and Magic Arrows
All dungeon maps and compasses
Bombs, and all upgrades
Bait
Letter -> exchange for one of blue/red potion
Blue Candle and Red Candle
Magic Shield
Bow
Boomerang and Magic Boomerang
Raft
Ladder
Bracelet
Flute
Magic Wand
Magic Book
Magic Key
Blue Ring and Red Ring
In my eyes a 100% run would consist of all heart containers, bomb upgrades, and the final (most powerful) form of all menu items including the red medicine. I'm kind of on the fence about rebuying the meat. On one hand, some may argue that you dont have all item slots full at the end of the game, but these are probably the same people who want you to go back after you kill Ganon to get the coin it took to kill him. On the other hand, the meat is obtained and it's not the fault of the runner that it needs to be used to complete the game. I am leaning on the side of not recollecting it for the simple reasons that you see the runner acquire the item during the run so there's no question that it was in fact gotten, and it seems a bit redundant in a run of a game that's somewhat overkill anyway which will probably diminish the entertainment value slightly.
Baxter wrote:
Anyway, most importantly, is there even anyone remotely interested in TASing it? (As you might be able to tell, I'm sure as hell not going to :P)
I have played with the thought of running this goal just to do it. :D I'm not sure how submittable this run would be though. Would make a fun TAS to link to though.
then yeah, that's possible... but Link moves diagonally, which I said was possible. You can move fully onto the stone, go left, move fully onto the stone above, and move right, to pass the stone in the middle. Diagonal movement through blocks is possible. You can't pass a long horizontal or vertical line of blocks though.
