I can't come up with a proper thread name so deal with it.
The idea is that instead of having only one prominent run of some games on the site which is available via torrent, streaming, etc. maybe we could point out other runs which have been made, but aren't published on the site.
The Dr.Mario TAS which is currently published shows off a cool glitch which is nice to see, but there are also other, very innovative videos available on nicovideo which would amaze people here. For another example, there are a lot of Kirby super star TASes and a recent any% WIP available which are highly optimized and make use of new techniques and glitches. Unfortunately, we won't get a new run until mid-2010 (or later, I expect) and I don't even know if the author (OGA) intends to submit it here.
Why do we have to keep the outdated version of 2005 without even pointing at those newer runs?
We could point to good videos and WIPs not available on the site, but on youtube and nicovideo.
Joined: 11/4/2007
Posts: 1772
Location: Australia, Victoria
On a somewhat related note, I recall that the site was going to be translated to Japanese to more easily accommodate Japanese TASers.
How well is this going? Probably not the best time to ask this question, but it is either when adelikat is out of holiday and this topic is possibly dead, or now.
hmm, this thread didn't get much of a response in a while...
I'm not entirely sure how the idea could be realized, and if it's even welcome. I'm thinking it could go like this:
In searches and everywhere, categorize everything in games.
Example:
Instead of having Super Mario Bros -3 ending, Super Mario Bos. walkathon, Super Mario Bros. no warps and Super Mario Bros. loosely on the site and only linked together by some list which logs the history of runs, you get Super Mario Bros. and then have a bunch of runs you can choose from, like in a list of links.
Much like this.
(blue links are published runs, purple links are videos from youtube or nicovideo etc. and are not published on the site.)
Discussion in the latest Pokémon submissions inspired me to create another (and better) example pic.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4324/tasv.png
To sum it up, this makes everything more tidy, more structured and more pleasant visually. This links movies and movie history nicely together. You can fill such a site with a dozen categories without problems (might get rid of the "we have too many categories" problem partially). You can fill such a page with WIPs too.
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 650
Location: a little city in the middle of nowhere
Isn't this the same sort of idea as SDA? Basically, you have one page for each game, which covers all categories and includes submission comments and encodes ect. Coupled with a list of games, this would make searching for movies easier and might avaoid problems such as this one.
EDIT: Basically, all of these ideas revolve around the central concept that we need a "game" object, as well as "movie" and "submission" objects.
On the downside however, this would require a complete makeover of the site's code, and would also make it more difficult do things such as list a selection of movies. People posting periodic WIPs would have to update the page manually every time, and I could imagine this system being particularly flawed and open for abuse. Putting WIPs in the same light as a full movie is a mistake, because WIPs may not be final, and may not have proper encodes. SInce WIPs may not necassarily be up to the site's standard, we should wait for the movie to be accepted before committing changes to any movie pages.
Perhaps we could create a specific, official WIP page for periodic WIPs of a game for the site, but I can't imagine this hapenning, and I can't really imagine the logistics of it either.
The "we have too many categories" problem is not a problem because we have a bad site layout, it's a problem because of movie redundancy. The site's main goal is entertainment, and several redundant goals for a single movie creates too many similarities. The problem isn't that we don't have enough page space, the problem is that we have too many movies that are exactly the same. (On this issue, my opinion is that 3 categories for a game is usually enough, unless different versions of the games or hacks, are sufficiently different to warrant separate publications. For example, I consider most hacks to be different enough to the original game to warrant separate publications, and that maybe 2 or 3 hacks of certain games should be accepted as long as they are well made. Also, for more popular games, there should be more leniancy on the number of categories, because these are the movies that the general public finds more entertaining and are more likely to be viewed.)
Also, if you do want the site to change, it's probably best to do it youself. I can imagine that people like adelikat put the site's layout as low priority, but if there is someone who has the means and the motivation to do so, and the support of TASVideos users, then I can imagine a change taking place. However, as it stands, I don't think many changes are going to occur for a while.
Discussion in the latest Pokémon submissions inspired me to create another (and better) example pic.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4324/tasv.png
To sum it up, this makes everything more tidy, more structured and more pleasant visually. This links movies and movie history nicely together. You can fill such a site with a dozen categories without problems (might get rid of the "we have too many categories" problem partially). You can fill such a page with WIPs too.
Commenting on the mockup, there are good reasons to have a screenshot on a per-TAS basis, or at least in your mockup on a per-branch basis (obsoleted ones need not apply for this display).
Brainstorming:
Regarding the general question at hand, is it possible to have the generic system list filter to null-branch-name only?
- As another option, you simply mark one branch as the 'main' branch with a tag, possibly not shown, restricting the 'system' listing to showing main branches only.
Then, one needs to detect if other branches exist, and possibly supply a link to something like that mockup from there.
It seems (and likely isn't) simple to filter to a particular game. The Pokémon TASes are an adequate example of why it wouldn't be, what with GRYB versions.
Using the current system, simply adding additional tags for, say, series seems like it could be useful. (Have you tried using the search system to find Rockman/Megaman TASes recently?)
Isn't this the same sort of idea as SDA? Basically, you have one page for each game, which covers all categories and includes submission comments and encodes ect. Coupled with a list of games, this would make searching for movies easier and might avaoid problems such as this one.
It is kind of like SDA. But I thought of a list of links that take you to the individual movie pages. It is just a collection page for all the published movies for a given game.
On the downside however, this would require a complete makeover of the site's code, and would also make it more difficult do things such as list a selection of movies. People posting periodic WIPs would have to update the page manually every time, and I could imagine this system being particularly flawed and open for abuse. Putting WIPs in the same light as a full movie is a mistake, because WIPs may not be final, and may not have proper encodes.
I'm aware that it requires a makeover of the site's code. This is only a suggestion that I'd like to see come true one day.
What do you mean by listing a selection of movies?
Imagine you visit the site as a casual viewer. You type in "Pokemon" and the collection page, in the best case, appears right at the top with the trick pages and individual movie pages after it.
When I was saying that WIPs could be added too, I had something in mind like OGA's & smns72's Kirby Super Star any% WIP that has been there for 2 years. Maybe one wouldn't need to update the page regularly since the info "Ah! This run is in the works" could be enough. Also, maybe the WIP link could take you somewhere where the WIP is to be found, like the game's forum topic...
I understand that such a page can be flawed, but in my eyes it's better than what we have now: A search engine with the movies mixed together (hard to find). In the case of GB Pokémon, someone unaware doesn't even know how many categories there are. The only link between the same game's movies (the entry history) doesn't give a clue either since the GB Pokémon games (Yellow, Green, Red, Blue) aren't treated the same by the site's system. They aren't even given any categories like "Save-Corruption", "Doko Kashira Door glitch" etc.
SInce WIPs may not necassarily be up to the site's standard, we should wait for the movie to be accepted before committing changes to any movie pages.
Then only add WIPs that are of proper quality and have a high chance of being published.
The "we have too many categories" problem is not a problem because we have a bad site layout, it's a problem because of movie redundancy. The site's main goal is entertainment, and several redundant goals for a single movie creates too many similarities. The problem isn't that we don't have enough page space, the problem is that we have too many movies that are exactly the same.
In the case of GB Pokémon: There is primo's Pokémon Blue TAS which uses a walk through walls glitch. Then the Pokémon Yellow TAS in 2 minutes popped up which uses an inventory glitch. The new Pokémon Red TAS (which obsoletes Pokémon Blue) uses the inventory glitch too, making it partially redundant.
However, the Pokémon Blue and Pokémon Red movies still play in the same league. On my example pic, I added a small comment behind those movies which can give a hint that the obsoleted movie might be interesting to watch.
(On this issue, my opinion is that 3 categories for a game is usually enough, unless different versions of the games or hacks, are sufficiently different to warrant separate publications. For example, I consider most hacks to be different enough to the original game to warrant separate publications, and that maybe 2 or 3 hacks of certain games should be accepted as long as they are well made. Also, for more popular games, there should be more leniancy on the number of categories, because these are the movies that the general public finds more entertaining and are more likely to be viewed.)
I think that more movies of a game is better if the categories are accepted / non-arbitrary and if they are presented well. It needs to be discussed on a game-per-game basis though. As you can see on the example pic, there can be 6 different categories for Pokémon. Now which categories would you cut?
I'm not really a fan of hacks so I can't give an opinion on that. Maybe those can be added as a side-category or bonus material on the game's collection page.
Also, if you do want the site to change, it's probably best to do it youself. I can imagine that people like adelikat put the site's layout as low priority, but if there is someone who has the means and the motivation to do so, and the support of TASVideos users, then I can imagine a change taking place. However, as it stands, I don't think many changes are going to occur for a while.
I lack the ability to program. After all, this is only a suggestion. I could imagine that those collection pages could be created manually, but it isn't a good thing to do as the pages can become outdated if not updated for a while.
Commenting on the mockup, there are good reasons to have a screenshot on a per-TAS basis, or at least in your mockup on a per-branch basis (obsoleted ones need not apply for this display).
I think obsoleted movies should be included for completion's sake and to make people aware of obsoleted yet interesting runs.
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In my opinion, as things are now such collection pages aren't going to made any time soon. But we can still improve some of the organization on the site.
Make sure that the entry history lists all the movies for a given game.
As I said earlier, the site's system doesn't treat Pokémon Yellow/Blue/Red/Green as the same game, so the entry history doesn't show all the movies for those games.
In the case of SMB3, there is
NES warps
NES no-warps
SNES playaround
But the playaround doesn't appear in the entry history because the SNES version's name differs from the NES version's name.
There are problably more cases like this.
I'm sorry if my wall of text is turning people away from caring about this matter, but I like to discuss a lot about things that I'm interested in, and I'm very interested in improving the site's structure.
Commenting on the mockup, there are good reasons to have a screenshot on a per-TAS basis, or at least in your mockup on a per-branch basis (obsoleted ones need not apply for this display).
I think obsoleted movies should be included for completion's sake and to make people aware of obsoleted yet interesting runs.
I meant solely on screenshot-display that nonobsolete runs get them and obsolete ones not, for the "one game display" method.
I don't see how you're supposed to find "obsolete but interesting" movies in your suggestion any more than presently.
well, the idea of having an additional filter by game isn't exactly new ;)
andymac wrote:
[..]On the downside however, this would require a complete makeover of the site's code
Not really. Adding another filter with SELECT ... FROM movies WHERE gamename = '$gamename' should be enough.
It'd require adding an index to that column, and to clean up misspellings of gamenames in existing movies, but that's it. Selecting on a text field isn't the most performant operation, but afaik all those results are heavily cached nowadays, anyway.
(the original idea was a lot cleaner than that, but also more complicated/invasive to implement. Which is part of the reason why it was never actually done.)
Once that's done, adding some new tables with a game's meta-information should be possible. This could be information like "Pokemon blue is the same game as Pokemon red" (to display both on the same page) or "For the game Zelda Ocarina of Time, there's a page called ZeldaTricks".
It's not really complicated, very basic database stuff. However, it is work, and would require the admin's will to see it done, and someone elses will to implement it, and so far I haven't seen either.
Oh, useful! Thanks. Of course, this doesn't address the Pokémon version (and, say, Hitler no Fukkatsu/Bionic Commando) issue.
I'll be snookered, http://tasvideos.org/movies.cgi?name=mega+man appears to catch them all. I editors fixed up the tagging issues, or I needed to put in the search differently. Suggests that region differences will be caught successfully, though in the HnF case you'll just pick it up by obsoletion chain.
A thought occurs to me, though NESVideoAgent's auto-ROM-matching is gone, that the ROM classification databases be used for the purpose of "which games are the same". Probably overkill. (And, mightn't catch Pokémon Yellow with R/B)
The "we have too many categories" problem is not a problem because we have a bad site layout, it's a problem because of movie redundancy. The site's main goal is entertainment, and several redundant goals for a single movie creates too many similarities. The problem isn't that we don't have enough page space, the problem is that we have too many movies that are exactly the same.
Oh? That's interesting. More so the fact that so far nobody has ever made a successful case that additional categories make anything less entertaining, yet every single time this point is brought up it's seen as some kind of a problem.
The issue of movies being the same is no more a redundant category problem than it is a much broader issue everybody who talks about it ignores selectively to avoid accidentally treating their own preferences the same way. Most Megaman games (those that aren't glitched into oblivion) are effectively "categories" (or hacks, if you want) of each other. Many GameBoy and NES platformers are painfully similar. SMB and SMB2j not only have the same engine, but same graphics and music as well. RPGs are the same and are also too long. Everything that is autoscrolling is essentially the same. But thankfully we don't have many people who don't realize they aren't forced to watch everything and freedom of choice only exists when there are several different options.
Site layout in regards to content presentation, however, doesn't keep up to standards of ergonomics, and that much was apparent back in 2006. Notably, user front-end hasn't changed too much since then.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
