I seem to recall this trick being mentioned in a walkthrough on Gamefaqs. In any case I've known about it since forever and assumed it was common knowledge.
Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
Hello everyone. I'm considering beginning to TAS this game. I think that the current 100% run isn't near-optimized to it's full potential. I also believe that there are many more physics exploits to be found (think SM64). My question to everyone is, would you rather see a redone, more optimized 100% run, OR a completely new any% run?
100% for me as well. If you could abuse physics to beat the game with less than the minimal requirements that would also be entertaining but I'd still prefer seeing the 100%.
<i>A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day.</i>
This game might not need an any%, as I would imagine an any% would still be a bit long unless there is some way to get past the minimum requirements to beat the game normally. The route within the levels may end up different, but it sounds to me that an any% would be similar to the 100%, skipping out on some things along the way (and maybe skipping some levels altogether, unless you can't really do that).
Whether that's true or not, I still vote for an improved 100% run.
<ccfreak2k> There is no 'ctrl' button on DeHackEd's computer. DeHackEd is always in control.
Hello everyone. I'm considering beginning to TAS this game. I think that the current 100% run isn't near-optimized to it's full potential. I also believe that there are many more physics exploits to be found (think SM64). My question to everyone is, would you rather see a redone, more optimized 100% run, OR a completely new any% run?
unless you can find some cool level skipping glitches or the like, I don't think an any% category is even needed for this game
and if you can find them, I'd like to see them, so I'd vote any%
Joined: 11/30/2008
Posts: 650
Location: a little city in the middle of nowhere
I doubt you'll find many physics exploits. SM64 was horribly coded (the prevention of lage backwards long jumping speeds was already hacky code, they had to introduce artificial restrictions to prevent backwards speed increasing past a certain point, and other restrictions for preventing excessive forwards momentum as well. I think nintendo already knew how badly they implemented the long jump, it was just a matter of time before someone figured out HOW badly), whereas rare took a lot more care when making their games. In my experience, rare used hard limits for maximum speed (if speed is above x, make it x) unlike SM64 which imposed soft limits, (decrese speed by x if speed is above y), or asimptotical limits. Hard limits would prevent excessive speed like in SM64 straight away. However, I would look at glitches in Donkey Kong 64, because they might manifest themselves in the BK engine. (Maybe because they're both made by rare, they may have similar physics or collision code.)
In my opinion, unless you find some insane level skipping glitches, the any% and 100% are too similar to warrant separate publications. 96 jiggies? Why not go the full 100? plus there is an already published 100%, so I vote for a 100%.
It's practically the same as how 100% is defined for the old TAS (I would rather see all the tokens too, by the way, but whatever). It has something like, 10 less jiggies. It's unnecessary, might as well just get everything.
Joined: 7/12/2009
Posts: 181
Location: São Paulo, Brazil
Unless some skips are found, an any% run would pick almost everything in the game, save for 6 jiggies I think, and less than 100 notes.
It would still enter every world, get all jiggies on at least 4 of them and such.
If any% is very similar to 100% (which seems likely), do 100%. Any% would only really make sense if it's possible to get a much lower percentage than intended, e.g. if you can glitch past note doors somehow.
You might want to do a lot of pre-testing to search for major skips. Like the above said, any% would only have a few things less than the 100% run, unless a new glitch were discovered. It could be interesting to see the absolute fastest time to beat the game though, but it might also be exciting to see how much you improve over Sami's run.
I vote for any% in either case.
Ideas to try:
Bypassing the 810 note door
Finding a way to gather over 100 notes in one world
Clipping into a world without unlocking it (Best chance I can think of is the aerial dive if that is applicable.)
Finding a way to spend less jiggies than is normally required to unlock a world
If you accomplish any of those, I'd really like to see an any% run. Otherwise, either is a fine choice.
The Beak Bomb is also something to investigate.
It's used now to grab the Freezing Peak jiggie without pressing the Grunty Switch first. Maybe it can be used to enter locked doors?
Joined: 9/21/2009
Posts: 1047
Location: California
So it's basically decided now that the 100% run will be improved unless a game breaking glitch is found to bypass note doors, levels, etc.
Next up is to decide what really constitutes a "100%" run. There was some debate on IRC yesterday whether all note doors needed "opened," if all mumbo tokens needed to be collected (since it is a collectible that the game has a counter for after all), and more. Or should we just forget this part of the conversation and follow what Sami called 100%? Thoughts everyone?
So it's basically decided now that the 100% run will be improved unless a game breaking glitch is found to bypass note doors, levels, etc.
Next up is to decide what really constitutes a "100%" run. There was some debate on IRC yesterday whether all note doors needed "opened," if all mumbo tokens needed to be collected (since it is a collectible that the game has a counter for after all), and more. Or should we just forget this part of the conversation and follow what Sami called 100%? Thoughts everyone?
I say do what SDA defines as 100%: all jiggies, notes and honeycombs. No mumbo tokens and opening all note doors. It seems to be a good definition for 100% because those are what the game tracks at the Game Totals screen.
I really don't get why you wouldn't have to get all the Mumbo tokens. What's the reasoning behind that? They are a collectible, they are hidden, there's a counter, they can only be collected once and they have a use in the game. Yes, you don't really need to have all of them, but the same is true for Jiggies and notes. Why are they different? "Not essential enough" would be a pretty arbitrary distinction imo.
