Okay, here goes stupid suggestion time.
At 2650, have you tried taking the right path? You can jump there from the very first block, and the ladder trick should work on the top too, but I'm not sure where that will get you because I don't fully understand that trick.
At 5250, the game lags a lot. Is it because of the magnet beam or is it always like that? Could you use the magnetbeam ammo elsewhere?
At 5800 something (paused too late, I don't know the specific frame) it looks like you hesitate for a few frames before exiting the wall above the guts block.
I was going to write more but it's sleeping time. I'll edit this later or make a new post.
Thanks for the welcome back too.
Thank you!
> At 2650, have you tried taking the right path?
I haven't. It's a good idea! I've previously rejected it because it requires to wait for the appearing blocks, but it might not be a bigger wait than the one required to access the left ladder.
However, the ladder trick is not useful at that side, because the trick can only be used to accelerate up-motion and right-motion. I want left-motion and using up-motion leads Rockman into the wall with no way out.
Edit: Ok, I tried this. It's 142 frames slower than the left way.
> At 5250, the game lags a lot. Is it because of the magnet beam or is it always like that?
> Could you use the magnetbeam ammo elsewhere?
Compared to some later things, it lags very little in there. But yes, it's because of many objects on screen. Three mines, two magnet beams and two wide electric beams.
Rockman is much more lag-sensitive under FCEU than under Famtasia.
I'm afraid this is the best way I can use the beams though. Rockman climbs very slowly.
> At 5800 something (paused too late, I don't know the specific frame) it
> looks like you hesitate for a few frames before exiting the wall above
> the guts block.
Correct. It was to avoid a collision with the red jumping piece of junk.
I actually tried manipulating luck for this screen a couple of times, and this was the best result I got. Other results included the red machine doing a wide jump after Rockman, hitting him and causing considerable delay.
Obviously, even this delay is frame-precisely as little as possible.
Ok well.. this is something i have been wondering now for a while, and i really cant use the blue shooting ledge type thing.. (cant remember the name right now) i cant use it very good to glitch it and push myself through the walls. Have you tried using it at the corners of the boss fights to see where it takes you? or even, at one point in the cutman stage, right at the very beginning when you just reach the first set of ladders to bring you up to the next screen. Maybe you can transport through it all and end up on the other side running towards the gates to the boss..thats just a thought.
Have you tried using it at the corners of the boss fights to see where it takes you?
Yes, usually it just leads to being stuck, but sometimes it leads to death. :)
Neither of which is really favourable.
Vatchern wrote:
cutman stage, right at the very beginning
Good thing you aren't sleeping and thanks, but I have already planned the level :)
Though it won't be _that_ easy. The level is not actually 2-dimensional. It's 1-dimensional. Meaning that there's only "next screen" and "previous screen",
not "up", "down", "left", "right" screens.
Therefore, going through the wall wouldn't end up in far away, but instead in the "next" screen, which in that case would be what comes when going "up".
Bisqwit's upcoming Rockman movie is now available in PICTURES!
http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvpic/rockmov/
Have an excellent look at the dynamicness of the movie - even the tracks of enemies are represented :)
Warning: The total size of the pictures is over a megabyte.
Bisqwit's upcoming Rockman movie is now available in PICTURES!
http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jutut/nesvpic/rockmov/
Have an excellent look at the dynamicness of the movie - even the tracks of enemies are represented :)
Warning: The total size of the pictures is over a megabyte.
I totally don't understand those pictures. Am I supposed to see something? And what's with the weird smearing there?
I totally don't understand those pictures. Am I supposed to see something? And what's with the weird smearing there?
It's the whole animation combined to a single picture (or rather, each level into a single picture).
Obviously there's some major motion-blur there, because it's all combined to single picture.
That's neat. It reminds me of seeing the entire LoZ overworld laid out in Nintendo Power. That takes me back...
Also, I imagine it's nice to go back to re-recording after the...aftermath of playing Rockman without the option.
Decided to continue this:
At the very start of Elecman level: you turn around in one of the jumps to shoot an enemy behind you. Doesn't this mean that you land later? I see no reason (aestethic?) too shoot him then and not later.
3650: You make a small extra jump to the right block just before the ladder. You didn't do this in your previous version and it seems very counterintuitive. Even jumping from one block higher is better?
The right path trick thing: elsewhere in the elecman level you do this trick to the right side, come out on the left side, jump, and then enter the right side of the screen again. I tried this at the appearing block place and I fell trough the wall on the left... how does it work?
At the place where you have to wait for the red jumping thing you also appear on the left side. I'm guessing you are only visially and not actually there because other wise it's faster to continue from the left side than to warp back to the right...
Iceman boss: Could you spend less time is paused mode (elec beam is wide) so that you're closer to the ball when it falls down?
18600: the enigmatic wait before entering the wall. I'm out of ideas short of debugging the rom machinecode and see which check it fails and what variable that changes so that you start moving again.
I don't understand the Fireman battle... surely it's possible to hit him as soon as possible all the time even without taking damage?
That's it... mostly it's stuff I don't understand, such as how the up+down-ladder trick works.
Thanks.
> At the very start of Elecman level: you turn around in one of the jumps to shoot an enemy behind you.
> Doesn't this mean that you land later? I see no reason (aestethic?) too shoot him then and not later.
For style, I wanted to shoot them as much as I could. Since the landing of that jump depends on the jump height, not width, turning around for one or two shots didn't cost any time.
> 3650: You make a small extra jump to the right block just before the ladder. You didn't do this in your previous version
> and it seems very counterintuitive. Even jumping from one block higher is better?
It bothers me too, but I measured the two ways and deemed that the extra jump method is faster.
> The right path trick thing: elsewhere in the elecman level you do this trick to the right side, come out on the left side,
> jump, and then enter the right side of the screen again. I tried this at the appearing block place and I fell trough the wall on the left...
> how does it work?
Face left to begin zipping. You'll zip to the right, and when it wraps, you'll appear on the left. When you're in the left edge of the screen, you'll no longer zip. The game actually now thinks you're in the next screen.
To jump on the left side of the screen, you'll have to start the jump two frames before he appears on the left side. This is the answer to your question.
Press right to return to the right edge of the screen.
If you now press left again, you'll zip (allowing for more jumps).
To exit the wall, instead of pressing left, hold right for a while to start walking, whichafter you can press left to exit the wall. You can shorten this waiting time by holding left while performing the jump on the left side of the screen, then switching to right immediately without releasing left first.
When pressing left to exit the wall, you can now press right for 1 frame, and you'll zip to the left due to the proximity with the wall edge.
> At the place where you have to wait for the red jumping thing you also appear on the left side. I'm guessing
> you are only visially and not actually there because otherwise it's faster to continue from the left side than to warp back to the right...
Yes, when he appears in the left side, he's actually in the left edge of the "next" room (due to the zipping). In the case of vertical scrolling screens, "next" is below.
> Iceman boss: Could you spend less time is paused mode (elec beam is wide) so that you're closer to the ball when it falls down?
I'll have to try it.
The problem is that Iceman is moving up, out of the reach of the beam.
> 18600: the enigmatic wait before entering the wall. I'm out of ideas short of debugging the rom machinecode
> and see which check it fails and what variable that changes so that you start moving again.
I really don't have any idea what causes it. No matter where and what kind of situation it is, it always seems that I have to wait for about 40 frames before starting zipping through the wall. If I don't wait, he'll just die (due to accessing the screen bottom) when he attempts zipping.
> I don't understand the Fireman battle... surely it's possible to hit him as soon as possible all the time even without taking damage?
At the moment when I take damage, Fireman is just about to begin vulnerable. I have three choices:
- Jump over the big blast he's shooting. Meanwhile, time is wasted, and I can hit Fireman only much later.
- Keep distance. Since there can only be one Ice shot on screen at time, time is wasted while Fireman no longer blinks.
- Take damage to gain proximity. Fastest way.
Walking into Fireman and shooting to the right while walking him to the left (towards the center) was a very good strategy. He got damaged as fast as possible, and the Ice shots disappeared as soon as possible (less lag, less waiting for new shots).
The speedup compared to the pause way comes almost entirely from lag. When using the pause trick, the sweat drops from the damaged enemy accumulate at every iteration, and objects always increase lag. When Fireman shoots at the moment of his death, there's a great amount of objects:
- 7 * sweatdrops
- Ice shot
- Exploding Fireman's explosion balls
- Fireman's fire blast
- Rockman
- The dropping ball
Taking the sweatdrops out of the equation makes it much faster, and also it allowed Rockman to be in a better position to reach the ball faster.
EDIT: I tried to improve the Iceman battle a bit (it was already on my todo list) and I managed to make it 8 frames faster. It's still 3 frames slower than in v4, but I think it's because of emulation differences. I successfully copypasted the Fireman level back in.
I also tried to improve the Fireman corridor, but it didn't improve at all. So instead of -118 frames, the net gain is now -110 frames. I didn't update the WIP this time.
More on the Iceman battle:
- The Elec beam moves faster than Rockman walks, so it's a good idea to shoot it as early as possible.
- Iceman moves up, and the Elec beam swirls. These two factors impose some limit on what can be done.
- As usual, my strategy was to hit Iceman at the first possible frame and do the last hit on last possible frame. The difference came from that I did the shooting from a tall position. Getting to that position was done while switching weapons, so it only costed 1 frame.
- For some reason, there occurs some graphical glitching at the end of the battle. Some Rockman clones are visible for about a half a second, and they are animated.
Bombman is a really complex level to plan.
In v4, I didn't really plan it - I just played it and backtracked if the beam number didn't go even.
This image contains a snapshot of my notes of the current moment.
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/bombmanmap.png
I don't guarantee anyone can follow it :)
The core of this planning is, of course, how to use the limited amount of magnet beam shots the best.
Ok..... and i must add a " WHAT?" ecause i really dont understand some of it. and some of it i do. anyway, looks like you got this level undercontrol. cant wait to see how it turns out
The "H" and "A" routes of this map are probably interesting to some people.
I quickly made a FCM that demonstrates them.
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/bisqwit-rockmanv6-hroute.fcm
Skip over the Elecman level (I still haven't fixed the savestate-based movie recording in my FCEU version).
Edit: Thanks schneelocke.
Sorry, but the ladder grab trick still baffles me, i've tried it and can't get it to work. Do you just push up + down while you're standing on top of a ladder? I've tried doing that in FCEU with frame advance, and nothing happend. Is there a special trick to it?
Big thanks!
Do not try to bend the spoon, that's impossible. Instead only try to realize the truth.
What Truth?
There is nospoon. Then you will see it is not the spoon that changes, it is only yourself
Sorry, but the ladder grab trick still baffles me, i've tried it and can't get it to work.
It works the exact same as in MM2. When you hold up+down on a ladder, Megaman will automatically climb upwards. The glitch occurs once he reaches the top (you will see him fly towards the right). The condition for this to work though is that there must be a roof just above the ladder. If you do this on a ladder with no roof, Megaman will appear to be jumping up and down and turning left and right. If Megaman isn't doing either at the top of the ladder, then you probably have up+down disabled.
I was actually using Up+Down combined with a horizontal direction in my speedruns to get MegaRockMan to "pop off" ladders so he could start moving right away. Otherwise I would have to time the A-button jump to the exact frame to avoid the sticky starting steps.
put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude
I've been studying the Bombman planning picture.
Idea: switch the places of the 4 and 4/8 beam constructions in the very beginning and you'll save one, possibly two shots by landing on the high pillar in the beginning.
I don't understand most of the written comments and numbers. If I did maybe I could help more - I'll look at it some more and maybe ask for help if I suck too much. The green binoculars which say "Recharge TWICE?!" you can explain at once because I'm totally clueless there.
Do you have framecounts of how much time you save for every extra letter, or how do you decide which ones to do?
The green binoculars which say "Recharge TWICE?!" you can explain at once because I'm totally clueless there.
The "green binoculars" points to the green text at the bottom of the image.
I intend to go through the wall there, and when I do (circled), Rockman appears at the left edge of the screen (circled) and may collide with enemies and shots. Thus the warning. It's a "note to self".
The text "recharge twice" is unrelated to that note and expresses an idea denoted by "bY".
> Do you have framecounts of how much time you save for every extra letter, or how do you decide which ones to do?
No, I haven't played it out yet. I intend to test the two routes written in the blue box at the center of the image.
Other choices I have evaluated by comparing the length of the zippings and the time required to do refills (shoot, switch weapons, wait for beams to disappear, etc).
> Switch places of 4 and 4/8
Hmm, at first I didn't understand what you meant, but upon closer study now I do. You meant that the first stretch should be shorter and the second begin at the top of the pillar, for maximum length.
That's an idea I forgot to consider! I will have to check that. Anything that saves shots is a good thing.
The problem in the pillar is that there are those annoying red jumping junks...
EDIT: Your idea has now been incorporated into the plan (route "Q"). Reload the image to see...
Thank you very much!
I have a new WIP.
Same old address.
https://files.tasvideos.org/bisqwit/bisqwit-rockmanv6-incomplete.zip
So what's new is that the Bombman level has been played (almost. Bombman fight is underway). Check the WIP to see the route - it changed a bit because I found some optimizations that I didn't realize when I made the map.
What's uncool though is that by preliminary analysis, the level appears to be 86 frames slower than in the published movie (measured from the death of Fireman until the opening of Bombman's door).
Edit: I added a savestate that brings to the beginning of Bombman level for readonly seeking.
Things I did better:
- luck manipulation looks perfect
- much more zipping than before
Things that may have been worse:
- route A has quite much delay in it
- there's more lag in FCEU than in Famtasia
- using Truncated's idea (route Q), the first zipping is left rather short (the buildup takes too much time) - cost-effeciency for the 4 magnet beams is bad
Things that were wrong in the plan:
- route D is bad. It requires too much buildup time and the actual zipping is very small.
- there is need for only 2 magnet beams in the room with 1up.
- having an extra magnet beam, it's faster to use it in the room of route C than to apply the route S.
>- using Truncated's idea (route Q), the first zipping is left rather short (the buildup takes too much time) - cost-effeciency for the 4 magnet beams is bad
You could use only the second part, if it's faster than recharging a second time. But I doubt it, see below.
>- route A has quite much delay in it
Why not switch to F directly when you fall down from the beam at 23320, shoot the cannon to the right and pick up the refill as you walk past it at 23410? Is it because the magnet beam is still on screen?
If this works you can put the next beam in place as you walk to the refill on the right, without turning around.
Also you seem to hit the corner at 23313. Turn backwards to just miss the corner or incorporate the switch to F-weapon in the fall, since you only need the vertical motion anyway. (Again, perhaps not possible since the magnet beam is still on screen.)
Are you already at max falling speed since you're walking off a magnet beam?
If all this is impossible for some reason, why not just recharge twice at the cannons + flying bombs later? You have enough ammo to last until then. Two extra weapon switches, but it looks faster than what you are doing in route A at the moment.
- 26030, why don't you go trough the wall here as your plan suggested (route N)? Is it undoable?
- In Bombmans lair, why don't you miss the corner as close as possible when going down? Is it because you will hit the enemies? If so, how about taking them out with the F-shield?
