i actually meant using the mine from chapter 27, but then again chapter 27 felt really fast to me so i guess it's needed. the thing you mentioned is worth testing though.
I decided to have a detailed look at both Roland’s run and the Nico Video one, and compare them. The bolded parts are where Roland might be able to improve.
Lyn Mode
Prologue: Not really comparable because Roland has to go through some tutorial nonsense, whereas the Nico run does not because they’re playing from a 2nd playthrough.
Chapter 1: Nico run gets 2 criticals, while Roland gets 3. Again, it is hard to compare because of tutorial silliness.
Chapter 2: Roland slaughters the nico run here. He not only saves a turn but also avoids facing one of the bandits.
Chapter 3: Roland’s strategy results in more player phase kills, which means more enemies are 1HKOed without a chance to counter. It’s almost undoubtedly better.
Chapter 4: Roland breaks the wall, which allows the enemies to crowd the chokepoint sooner. The nico run also fails to use the glitch that lets multiple units stand on one tile.
Chapter 5: Roland removes Sain and Erk from the strategy, which works better with proper RN manipulation. He wouldn’t be able to include Erk anyway because of tutorial restrictions.
Chapter 6: The nico run has Serra get the door key, which one of the cavs trades for. It’s faster to just have a cav get the door key directly. I also have no idea why Wil is used in the strategy. On the other hand, they handle the southern door better by killing the soldier on the blue tile on player phase.
Chapter 7: The nico run has Rath kill the boss on enemy phase, but Florina is perfectly capable of killing the boss herself on player phase.
Chapter 8: The nico run has Florina drop Lyn instead of Kent, and this is superior because Lyn 1HKOes cavaliers normally and has a higher crit rate thanks to her mani katti sword. Otherwise Roland’s strat is better because he saves a turn by having Florina attack twice on turn 2. It might be worth testing to see if 3 turning is better since dancing on Florina takes quite a long time, possibly more than seeing a ballista attack + extra player phase screen.
Chapter 9: Roland repositions 2 units whereas the nico run only repositions 1.
Chapter 10: Basically identical.
On a more general note, there seems to be a lot of effort put into raising Lyn, which results in significant time lost in manipulating quality level-ups for her, seeing those extra stat-ups on screen, and using inferior strategies that maximize her killing potential. It’s also clear that the RN manipulation is worse, which is especially apparent on enemy phase crits that Roland gets and the Nico run doesn’t. They also don’t burn RNs as efficiently as they can.
Eliwood Mode
Chapter 11: The nico run does a lot of wrong on the first 2 turns. First off, they rescue-drop Eliwood on turn 1, but there’s no reason to drop him at all because Marcus can easily kill the bandit he faces. Then on turn 2, they get an unnecessary stat booster, and use 2 regular hits to take out an archer instead of a crit. The rest of the chapter is worse as a by-product of Marcus’ inferior positioning.
Chapter 12: Unnecessary stat-booster acquired by Rebecca. However, the Nico run uses a rescue chain to bring Marcus ahead 2 spaces, which seems to save a turn.
Chapter 13: Roland gets Marcus and Eliwood across the river with a rescue chain, whereas the Nico run takes the longer route that involves destroying both snags. Roland also saves time by not recruiting Guy.
Chapter 14: Roland repositions 4 units, whereas Nico repositions 1. There’s probably a good reason for this, though. The nico run clearly uses more units than necessary, doing things like dropping Hector in front of an armor for a wolf beil 1HKO when Lowen can just 1HKO with a crit.
Chapter 15: Mine glitch.
Chapter 16: The Nico run has this nasty habit of using more units than is strictly necessary. There’s no reason Priscilla should be following Eliwood and Marcus to the throne, for instance. Despite only using Marcus for the majority of the throne charge, Roland saves at least 1 turn and massive amounts of time.
Chapter 17: The Nico run saves a turn, but loses huge amounts of realtime by having to fight a bunch of enemies.
Chapter 18: Roland has Florina kill the boss directly instead of dropping Marcus.
Chapter 19: Again, Roland uses fewer characters yet manages to achieve a more efficient clear.
Chapter 20: See above. The nico run loses a turn by not critting the boss on enemy phase.
Honestly, I don’t feel like comparing the runs anymore. There’s a lot of signs to me that the runner doesn’t plan out his run carefully. He gets a lot of unnecessary stat boosters, he often feeds units like Lyn and Florina kills that waste time just to give them perfect level-ups (which in itself wastes time in excessive manipulation), and he seems to want to use every last character he deploys, even though that often wastes time. Although I did spot some instances where the Nico run might be better in Lyn mode, Roland is just destroying their run in Eliwood mode.
I mean no disrespect to the Nico runner. Obviously I applaud him for creating an FE TAS, but from a purely efficient standpoint, Roland’s run is much better.
As for the TAS itself, there are some strategies that look to be faster than what Rolanmen has done, but the majority of it looks improveable […] There are some lessons to be learned from this TAS though.
I think it would be better if you pointed them out, though I guess you did spot 3 of them in a later post. Is there anywhere they improve from C21 onwards?
For those that weren't on IRC, all three of the GBA games have the camera scroll on where the cursor icon is located, but the arrow while moving can move beyond that location. Normally, holding B while moving keeps the cursor moving fast enough to keep up with the arrow. The problem with this is that once a move location is confirmed, normally the camera scrolls back to the unit before moving if you go too far from it.
With this new trick, by not holding B, or only holding for a few frames, you let the camera move slow enough that, when you confirm the unit movement the camera does not scroll back and the move happens straight away rather than waiting. It doesn't work in every instance, but it will save a good few frames when it does.
Crap, I can’t believe I didn’t find this myself! I’ve even used this trick in my FE8 TAS when killing Aias (the C14 boss that Seth double crits on turn 1), thinking it was just a neat entertainment trick. How many frames does this save per character movement, approximately?
For those that weren't on IRC, all three of the GBA games have the camera scroll on where the cursor icon is located, but the arrow while moving can move beyond that location. Normally, holding B while moving keeps the cursor moving fast enough to keep up with the arrow. The problem with this is that once a move location is confirmed, normally the camera scrolls back to the unit before moving if you go too far from it.
With this new trick, by not holding B, or only holding for a few frames, you let the camera move slow enough that, when you confirm the unit movement the camera does not scroll back and the move happens straight away rather than waiting. It doesn't work in every instance, but it will save a good few frames when it does.
Crap, I can’t believe I didn’t find this myself! I’ve even used this trick in my FE8 TAS when killing Aias (the C14 boss that Seth double crits on turn 1), thinking it was just a neat entertainment trick. How many frames does this save per character movement, approximately?
Normally, if you move north or south more than 5 spaces, or east or west more than 8 spaces, the camera will need to scroll back to your unit before it starts moving. This trick makes the camera not scroll away in the first place. For movement, this is useful in chapters with plenty of vertical movement, and saves about 4-9 frames depending on vertical distance traveled. It is much more useful when using the Warp staff, since longer distances are involved there.
If you don't move enough to scroll the camera away from your unit, this doesn't save any time. In fact, you will sometimes want to scroll one space further, so that the camera does not need to scroll later (such as to an enemy you will attack at the end of this movement).
To be fair, I did not discover this trick myself. I saw the nicovideo run use it with the Warp staff while rewatching chapter 28 for planning purposes.
Thanks for the info, though I already knew most of that ;) I was just considering hexing that movement trick into my FE8 run, but at 4-9 frames per use, it hardly seems worth the effort. Chalk it up to "known improvements".
I rewatched the last chapter of the WIP, and I'm wondering why Pent doesn't use the rescue staff on Marcus, or maybe some other useful unit (Ninian?). It seems to me that it might save a turn.
Thanks for the info, though I already knew most of that ;) I was just considering hexing that movement trick into my FE8 run, but at 4-9 frames per use, it hardly seems worth the effort. Chalk it up to "known improvements".
I rewatched the last chapter of the WIP, and I'm wondering why Pent doesn't use the rescue staff on Marcus, or maybe some other useful unit (Ninian?). It seems to me that it might save a turn.
He just simply can't:
Turn1: Marcus rescues Pent, get danced, drops Pent. (NOTE that both unit must pass an invisible square that triggres reinforcements, see WoD)
Turn2: Marcus moves, Pent drops Mine
Turn3: Would be pointless anwyay.
Turn 1: Have Pent use the rescue staff, then Marcus can rescue him. That might take him out of dancing range, though. I'll play around with it (made a savestate before the chapter starts) and report back if I find anything interesting.
Edit: It works from a spacing standpoint, as seen in the following screen:
Someone would have to rescue Ninian, obviously.
Problem is, even if rescue staffing saves a turn, it would mean Florina can't reach the village with the warp staff, so scrap the idea altogether.
Turn 1: Have Pent use the rescue staff, then Marcus can rescue him. That might take him out of dancing range, though. I'll play around with it (made a savestate before the chapter starts) and report back if I find anything interesting.
Moving past the bridge activates the trigger, so no, slower.
I will be editing these, as i progress.
Toothache wrote:
I figure it might be better here to post possible improvements.
I've already addressed this in IRC, but I did notice there were places when you are moving the cursor for the RN manipulation, where it can be done faster in a different location. For example, in Ch13, you manipulate for the boss kill here:
when there is an unobstructed area that can be used in the north-west. There are other places like this where RN manipulation can be done faster in a different direction, but this was the most glaring one.
Fixed
Another possible improvement I have is giving Marcus the Energy Ring that Dorcas starts with. Giving him the item is a simple matter of trading in Ch11 Turn 2, as soon as Dorcas appears. The time taken to get and use the item should more than pay for itself, as Marcus will have 2 higher Atk with which to get more OHKOs, and can also save less manipulation later on if getting Str in a level is particularly time consuming - even gets to cap the stat sooner so you can get blank level ups earlier.
Fixed
A couple of chapter strategies have possible improvements. As seen in the Japanese TAS linked earlier, opening the door and critting the soldier in the same player phase will be faster than letting him move on enemy phase and getting 2HKOed.
If i open the door in the next turn, that means Sain opens it, and FLorina kills the Soldier, then i would need someone else to come and wait in the blue tile.
Moving another unit from back there to the right cost nearly the same time than wait for the soldier to come out and get a crit.
Ch11 doesn't require Eliwood to crit all three enemies after he is dropped, just enough so that he can seize - so just the first two, saving time with less exp gained and RN manipulation.
That was the fastest i could get, i was initially aimming for 2, but that costed too much time to get.
Ch16 could have an improvement, if a 7 move unit was to hang back from enemies, using Marcus to charge forward and kill stuff, and hand Eliwood to Marcus once all the archers in the western corridor were clear.
Slow
I'm probably not completely right on a couple of these, just going off observations I've seen while watching this. The improvement Nitrodon discovered will also save time in a few places, but that should be a matter of easy hexing where it does save time.
For those that weren't on IRC, all three of the GBA games have the camera scroll on where the cursor icon is located, but the arrow while moving can move beyond that location. Normally, holding B while moving keeps the cursor moving fast enough to keep up with the arrow. The problem with this is that once a move location is confirmed, normally the camera scrolls back to the unit before moving if you go too far from it.
With this new trick, by not holding B, or only holding for a few frames, you let the camera move slow enough that, when you confirm the unit movement the camera does not scroll back and the move happens straight away rather than waiting. It doesn't work in every instance, but it will save a good few frames when it does.
FixedEDIT: So, with all this, i managed to save 222 frames. I guess i should now keep working on the future chapters.
New WIP
Fixed some stuff in the run.
Instead of giving the Energy Ring to Marcus, i gave it to Pent, he needs it to get 28 Mag on Ch28 so he can easilly Warp Eliwood to the spot and to make Pent kill all the units in the next chapter. I also finished Ch28.
EDIT: Forgot to say that im saving 81894 frames (22:44.90)
wouldn't it be quicker to somehow pick units so that pent and nils are already on the right? or is that not possible?
Sadly no, if i leave Pent and Nils in position 4 and 5, once i start the chapter, they would go down to position 2 and 3 if no one are on those positions.
If you put Pent and Nils in slots 4 and 5, and put dummy units in the remainder slots, then they will end up in position. I just tested it a moment ago.
Apparently, it is possible, but only if you go to the map screen (where you have the option to see the map), since if i try to do it on the character select screen, they go back to position 2 and 3. Did you managed to do it without seeing to the map?
All I did was leave Marcus and Florina deployed, then I de-selected the last 2 characters and selected Nils and Pent.
Leaving Marcus and Florina would make enemies on the left side to move, so in order to deselect them and have Pent and Nils there was to go to the menu that allows to see the map.
I managed to do it this way, saving 10 frames.
Last WIP
Finished Ch29 and 30, i was really lucky that i could avoid getting poisoned with such low numbers of RNs to be burned, and same happened with Bartre needing to dodge 2 +70% Hit twice. About ch30, i used the mine glitch to avoid fighting at all, same goes for Limstella, who is powerfull as hell that only Marcus can beat her in one single battle with my current conditions.
EDIT: Forgot say (again) that im saving 84648 frames (23:30.80). I think it's safe to say that im going to sub 1:20
You'll need a copy of VBA, v23.5 is recommended, as well as a copy of the ROM. Don't ask where to get that, of course. Open VBA and follow these instructions:
1. Start the ROM
2. Go to Tools -> Movie -> Play Movie
3. Select the VBM file
4. Watch and enjoy
When I try that, the VBM file doesn't show up, only the VMV movie that I recorded once. I changed the WIP I downloaded by renaming it into a VMV movie type, but when I try to play it, it says "unsupported file type".
I'm using 1.8 by the way, as I don't know where to download the 2.3 version.
Hey, guys, if you guys could, could you please provide me an rng script for this game that shows what the random numbers are as you're playing through the game the way they do in this tutorial?
http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=28299&pid=1713508&st=0&#entry1713508
I know Toothache at least has one for Fire Emblem: The Sealed Sword, and I'm assuming Rolanman1 has one for Blazing Sword, but it's cool if you guys don't. It'd just make a future project I want to do much easier, that's all.
Someone would have to rescue Ninian, obviously.
Problem is, even if rescue staffing saves a turn, it would mean Florina can't reach the village with the warp staff, so scrap the idea altogether.when there is an unobstructed area that can be used in the north-west. There are other places like this where RN manipulation can be done faster in a different direction, but this was the most glaring one.
