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Post subject: Fire Emblem/Tactics Ogre
Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
I post those games under the same topic because they have quite the same gameplay system... I do not intend to do a timeattack of those games but i wanted to know if it was worth trying one day... You know, one could try to beat the game with the less turns as possible or something like that... I was wondering that because those games kick ass, especially the Fire Emblem games... Though i guess watching the animation would be quite long in the end... However, as Saturn runned through Secret Of Evermore on SNES, i guess those ones would be quite cool to see one day on this site...
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Former player
Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
i would like to see both^^
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Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
There are three fire Emblem games on GBA (two in english and one japanese only), i do not know which one would the best to try... AS far as I know there is only one Tactics Ogre game... personnally I think that I'd prefer Fire Emblem to be runned...
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Former player
Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
do the sacred stones, to general, i think its more interesting to do something in english, and, personally, i prefer the sacred stones^^
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Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
I wouldn't really call those 2 similliar even though they have a similliar genre...FE doesn't handle terrain in the same way due to the fact that the map is "flat" and there's no stuff like directions you face to worry about. Instead there's far more focus on the right weapon type, making sure you don't run out of weapon uses in middle of a battle and get screwed, and generally stats mean a lot more in FE due to their small scale.
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Joined: 8/1/2004
Posts: 2687
Location: Seattle, WA
In FE you can't run out of weapon use in the middle of a fight. Even if you have a weapon with just one use left, it can be used twice in one fight. FE would very quickly turn into using the pegasus knights to throw your mages or heavy generals around. Also, the mine trick probably wouldn't work on VBA.... maybe.
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Former player
Joined: 5/24/2005
Posts: 405
Location: France
So i guess that Tactics Ogre would be more entertaining to watch as a Time Attack than Fire Emblem... Because using terrain as your advantage is really something hard to do
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Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
"In FE you can't run out of weapon use in the middle of a fight. Even if you have a weapon with just one use left, it can be used twice in one fight. " Uh. I don't know what version of FE you've been playing, but I've run out of weapon uses in middle of a duel (I attack with one use left and have enough speed to hit twice, I hit once, the weapon breaks and I'm screwed out of the extra attack) more times than I can count in FE: TSS.
Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Also, terrain's not that major of a factor in either of those, other than maybe criticaling/shieldpushing enemies off a high elevation and killing them that way. I'd suggest FE mainly because TO AI seems to take way too damned long to decide what to do on its turn, while FE AI just rushes right in. Also, FE fights go by a lot quicker due to skipable animations that both SDA runs use, although not having a SRAM with game beaten eliminates the ability to speed up movement animations by holding down A.
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Joined: 5/24/2005
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Location: France
AnotherGamer wrote:
Also, terrain's not that major of a factor in either of those, other than maybe criticaling/shieldpushing enemies off a high elevation and killing them that way. I'd suggest FE mainly because TO AI seems to take way too damned long to decide what to do on its turn, while FE AI just rushes right in. Also, FE fights go by a lot quicker due to skipable animations that both SDA runs use, although not having a SRAM with game beaten eliminates the ability to speed up movement animations by holding down A.
You got one Point :D
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Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
You're selling all of these games short by combining them into one thread. =( Personally, I would rather see TO:KOL since speedruns of FE7 and FE8 already exist on SDA. Ok, I would rather see TO:KOL anyway, but this way I have actual rationale.
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
If only I could set Ctrl as frame advance key .... And If I could use one key to save and one to load with slots like FCEU and Zsnes .... I would like to do Tactics Ogre but ...
Player (206)
Joined: 5/29/2004
Posts: 5712
Fortunately I don't have those preferences! My preferences prevent me from using some OTHER emulators from time to time.
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Joined: 6/6/2005
Posts: 384
*adds Advance Wars games in there* >< Normal (and Hard?) Campaign. S-Ranked. 300 points. For all levels. Of course, the battle animation would be turned off. But making the enemy AI work with you is hard enough. I've spent the last few days trying to get through 2 on normal. Trust me, I know. >< Reason I think both campaign modes should be run is because Hard is MUCH tougher than normal. I suppose it depends on the final time of running Normal. The game's about as fast as any other turn-based strategy game when the animation's off. With smarter AI than Fire Emblem's. x.x;
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KaitouKid wrote:
The game's about as fast as any other turn-based strategy game when the animation's off. With smarter AI than Fire Emblem's. x.x;
..smarter AI? That values APCs and transport helicopters more than any other unit, so you can feint an "attack" with such a cheap and useless unit to let your main strike force go forward unopposed?
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Joined: 1/14/2005
Posts: 216
Boco wrote:
..smarter AI? That values APCs and transport helicopters more than any other unit, so you can feint an "attack" with such a cheap and useless unit to let your main strike force go forward unopposed?
In all seriousness, a lot of people consider this AI exploit a "feature" of the game. It's basically impossible to get all S-ranks in Advance Wars without it anyhow, so at least it was planned for. Not that I support bad AI...
"I think happiness is just being able to loaf without stress." http://speeddemosarchive.com/
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Joined: 12/21/2004
Posts: 2687
Phil wrote:
If only I could set Ctrl as frame advance key .... And If I could use one key to save and one to load with slots like FCEU and Zsnes .... I would like to do Tactics Ogre but ...
Are you trying to guilt-trip me into adding these features to VBA? If so, it might be working... (Progress so far on the first one: I just discovered that all VBA commands go through a Microsoft black box function called TranslateAccelerator which totally ignores Ctrl-only as input and has no option to change that behavior, which means I'll have to reverse-engineer that function or add some tremendous hacks to allow Ctrl to activate a command.)
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
I'd like to see either one of these games get decimated. Though I'm not sure if they would produce movie interesting enough for publishing here.
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
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Joined: 3/16/2004
Posts: 2623
Location: America, Québec
nitsuja wrote:
Phil wrote:
If only I could set Ctrl as frame advance key .... And If I could use one key to save and one to load with slots like FCEU and Zsnes .... I would like to do Tactics Ogre but ...
Are you trying to guilt-trip me into adding these features to VBA? If so, it might be working... (Progress so far on the first one: I just discovered that all VBA commands go through a Microsoft black box function called TranslateAccelerator which totally ignores Ctrl-only as input and has no option to change that behavior, which means I'll have to reverse-engineer that function or add some tremendous hacks to allow Ctrl to activate a command.)
heh, something like that ;) Btw, welcome back.
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Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3109
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>Are you trying to guilt-trip me into adding these features to VBA? If so, it might be working... Noooo. Do more Ninja 5-O instead. Phil can live with streching his fingers and pressing another button than Ctrl. :)
Post subject: Fire Emblem
Ambassador, Experienced player (708)
Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
Ok, making a thread just for this game. I've dipped into this game and produced this run through the first two levels: http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/FireEmblem-TheAxeManv0.1.vbm Note that through a lot of this, I have to follow a script where I move to certain spots and do certain things, so there isn't a whole lot of room to optimize yet. In fact, I'm really only controlling things after Sain uses the vulnary. Obviously this would go much faster without the battle animation, but I think that would be pretty lame. As it is, it seems kinda strange with all plot elements skipped. There is a piece on the random number generation in this game here: http://faqs.ign.com/articles/520/520430p1.html Because at this point I only have 4 percent chance to crit at the most, I just make the battles consist of me hitting everytime and the enemies missing--it's pretty easy to do here. The lower probability is getting the stats I want at levelup: there's no reason not to get strength, speed and skill every level, but the others are less important. I finish the battle on the earliest round possible. Perhaps early on the focus can be on stats, then later there can be tons of crits. Later being once the Manni Katti is in hand. :) There's clearly a lot of variables in this, so I'm still trying to decide exactly how a TAS of this game should look. Ideally, it is probably possible to do Lyn's quest, then Eliwood and Hector's in the same vbm, but just Lyn's would be a good start. Edit: After reviewing more of the game's algorithms I think luck needs to be gotten every level too. Here is what I see: Damage = Weapon Damage + Strength/Magic Hit% = Weapon hit + skill*2 + luck/2 Crit% = Weapon crit + skill/2 Evade% = 2*speed + luck (if constitution is less than weapon weight, subtract the difference) Crit evade = Luck So luck figures into hit% and evade%, which I think are about the most important figures in this.
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 380
Location: Finland
Yess, finally someone picked this up. Now I just need to get home and watch it. :)
"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your home." ( Pratchett & Gaiman: Good Omens )
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Location: The FLOATING CASTLE
The above link now finishes the third fight as well. I took some extra time to get levelups before finishing the level, though it may not be necessary.
Former player
Joined: 7/29/2005
Posts: 459
Location: Brazil
cant u manipulate luck to dont get hit and dont need to heal?! i.i edit: u are also missing too.. cant be manipulated?! i.i
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Former player
Joined: 2/2/2005
Posts: 198
Luck manipulation in this game is strictly based on stuff like resetting and what kinds of actions you perform, so ultimately it might not be as fast as you might think. Regardless, the current SDA speedrun has animations turned off, so you might want to consider doing that for a better comparision.
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