Post by Phil

Posted: 2/23/2005 6:17 AM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

You continue to impress me. I really wouldn't have thought that killing both enemies when you go for level 2 would be faster than the quick in/out you were using.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 2/26/2005 12:30 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Hehe, you're right Hamm, it seems logical that expanding to more spawn points would make things faster. But when you manipulate the mechanics to the level I did it becomes more important to get 2-3 spawn points which are close together. In each run I have been tabulating stats on my levelup sequences. The most interesting metric is average kill time, the average time between enemy kills (calculated as total time/total kills). My test runs got around 2.7s for the warthogs, but this new method is close to 2.0s, which shows how significant this manipulation is. By comparison, the slimes I kill for level 2 went from about 1.9s to 1.6s. My test runs only scored about 3.4 for the swamp, so there's hope to find a better way. The ice zombie loop which I follow for 5 minutes in the test runs scores under 2.0, which means it's likely the best way to handle that. The fastest killing happens in the sea cave (under 1.5s) and the slowest is the styx cave (about 4.2s). Starting to break down the swamp to prepare for my next powerup sequence. I've located the spawn points (5 bugs and 6 flowers) and determined the counter values for each. There isn't an obvious pattern like there was with the warthogs. I'm not even sure whether it will be a loop or back-and-forth trips. This will be much harder because the bugs can roll away quickly and the flowers can only be nailed with a level 2 shot. My last test did a decent job by taking a large loop which hits three flowers and all five bugs. Without actually trying different patterns it's impossible to say what will work or not. Watching my old run, I got an idea for one more tweak for the warp pattern near the end. Instead of going right to Mt Hydra after Goa to get the Bow of Sun, I'll do it after killing Draygon the first time. This saves the time taken walking from Azteca to the entrance of the pyramid, about 5 sec. I just hadn't thought about it before. I'll still have level 15 for Draygon and I don't need the Bow of Sun until the second pyramid so it's fine. This will make the last levelup almost completely earned from en-route encounters. I've considered many other changes but there always ends up being something in the way. In particular, it seems I could work something out to avoid waiting for the dolphin three times, but any method seems to mess up too many other parts of the warp pattern. As it is, everything flows pretty nicely. EDIT: Tweaked the last couple inventory sequences for a few frames improvement. Also found a method to speed up dialog by alternating between A and B when dismissing multiple pages. I might be able to hex this into the conversation with the elder of Leaf (so far I've only talked to him to get sword of wind and Akahana to get gas mask), getting a few more frames. Guessing this is hexable because it doesn't affect "the counter." Overall this could add up to about a second off the total run time. Immediate improvement is 5 frames+. ANOTHER EDIT: Unable to hex the speedup to the elder's conversation, it changed the lag and sword-charging pattern in the next area. Well, this was only 2 frames which might have been lost due to increased lag anyway. I'll do this on the rest of the game's dialogue, the Leaf Elder is the only talk that will miss this.

Posted: 3/3/2005 4:57 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Still working on the swamp leveling. There's one place in the swamp where I can walk back and forth between two bug spawns and get a pretty good exp rate. However, one of the bugs doesn't seem to spawn sometimes. I'll need to check this a little more. If I can't get both bugs to spawn consistently, I may switch back to the big loop and just try to tweak the spawns a little better than before.

Posted: 3/4/2005 11:40 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

For some of the slower average kill times (like the swamp), is it possible that it is faster to gain some of the exp at the spot before (outside fighting the warthogs in this example)? outside against warthogs you get 5 exp every 2 seconds. inside against swamp stuff you get 6 for plants, 8 for bugs every 3.4 seconds. so every 34 seconds against warthogs you get 85 exp and every 34 seconds against swamp stuff you get a max of 80 exp. So unless you can cut the average kill times down, it is quicker to level outside until just killing things on the way will level you up.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 3/5/2005 12:38 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Actually, I think I misquoted my figures before on that swamp kill rate, but everything else was right. My last test actually had a kill rate of about 2.7 sec in the swamp, which still beats the warthogs in xp/time. However, this was a mix of bugs and flowers (about 4:3). While the time/kill is the best comparison between different versions, I also calculate exp/time for each area. I've run the numbers and each hunting ground I use has a signficantly higher exp/time rate than the last. For example, even though I spend forever on the ice zombies, the exp/time rate is much higher than any other method. Anyway, I have some ideas which may allow me to spawn more bugs. If I can pull it off, I'll get a kill rate of about 2.3 sec fighting all bugs. Running the numbers, this would save about 20 sec over my last attempt. Thanks for catching this. The swamp will be one of the tougher areas to optimize spawning. Most of the other areas seem to be a bit more straightforward, so hopefully my work on this run will speed up after this.

Posted: 3/5/2005 7:33 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

Yeah, the swamp spawns are the most...picky. While your leveling on the ice zombies is probably the longest and most boring place in the game, I agree that it is by far the best place to do that. Thinking ahead to after you finish this run. Any considerations of making a non-warp run some time in the future? Obviously it will be far slower, but leveling up might not be quite as tedious looking.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 3/6/2005 12:03 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Ok, I think I figured out what my problem was:

The big loop I used before is in green, and my idea was to use the red path, killing bugs BA and BC then turning around and killing them again as they respawn. This is what I did with the warthogs, but they were closer together. These two spawn points are too far apart, I can't kill bug BA then BC and clear out fast enough for BC to respawn. If possible, this would result in a kill rate of about 2.2 sec. However, I can still get 2.2-2.3 with a three-point pattern where I kill one enemy on each end and one in the middle as I move. This would suggest BA-BC-B8-BC-BA... If I could fit in F6 as well this would be even better. The bugs move a lot and sometimes it helps and sometimes it's a pain. I know I can get about 2.6 with BA-BC-B8-BC-BA-BA-BC-B8... Anyway, making some progress, once I figure out the pattern it will be pretty easy to carry it out. Here's my spreadsheet (openoffice.org) with levelup numbers from my tests in case I try to reference it again. http://home.comcast.net/~f_amoroso/leveling.sxc Oh yeah, I have thought about doing a non-warping run, it could be interesting. Of course I'd have to figure out the leveling all over again, but it could be an interesting look. UPDATE: I've prototyped a pattern up to the experience amount I need (232), and was about 20 sec faster than my last test. It looks like the best policy is to maintain some flexibility to deal with quirks in the spawning. I was doing BA-BC-F6-B8-BC-BA-BC... with some occasional changes. However, next I will try BC-F6-B8-BC-F6... which will probably not be a stable loop but perhaps close enough. Ok, have a general plan now, but there are still some unknowns. It's definitely possible to do BA-BC-B8-BC-BA-BC... but if I can cram in F6 then it's even better. However, this is a tight loop as it is, and there are some major problems when the three bugs spawn in unfavorable locations and or roll away quickly. It looks like I can vary their movement by changing when they come onscreen, but the location is trickier. I don't have a lot of room to manipulate things as I am constantly in a tight race with the spawn counter. The bugs seem to be able to spawn a over a pretty wide range, for example BA can be at the upper left or lower right of that T-junction. When he is at the lower right, I can get some extra time to stabilize the loop. Well, I'll see if I can manipulate the spawn location, otherwise I might end up doing something more free-form but the general idea will be the same.

Posted: 3/10/2005 6:29 AM

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TheAxeMan

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I'm working at manipulating spawns and tweaking the pattern. It seems that your general location when the monster spawns influences where it spawns and its movement pattern. So it's not always possible to manipulate them ideally, for best results the pattern needs some flexibility. Looks like my best bet is BC-B8-F6-F6-B8-BC-BA-BC-B8... This seems to make everything show up in the right place at the right time. Including the flowers in the mix helps as they are more reliable. I might be able to manage another few seconds better than the 20 sec improvement I have so far.

Posted: 3/10/2005 4:39 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

You said that BA can spawn at the upper left, correct? Where does BB spawn? If BB spawns at the intersection, then a pattern of BA, BB, F4/F5, B9, BB, BA, etc might be easier on felxibility because regardless of which way the top bug moves, you'll be near a flower to kill. If BB spawns off of the intersection though, it is almost certainly slower, and the current plan is probably the best, even though it is a tight loop.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 3/10/2005 7:11 PM

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TheAxeMan

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BB tends to spawn to the left of the intersection, so it doesn't work well in any pattern. There's also a much greater distance between BA and BB than BA and BC. The relative spawning times of the enemies on the right are also more convenient, there's a big separation between B8 and BC. I probably have a lot more testing to do before this is done, but I'm pretty sure the right side is where the action is. I may consider cutting out BA if it lets me do BC-B8-F6 really quickly.

Posted: 3/10/2005 11:20 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

ah, ok. Makes sense. Guess that means I'll just wait until the next time you need input. ^_~

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 3/17/2005 12:26 PM

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Phil

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Joined: 3/16/2004
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So, where are you in that game?

Posted: 3/17/2005 7:14 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Still in the swamp. I have more testing to do, but I seem to be converging on a solution. Lately I've been distracted by an early spring here, but the clouds and rain have returned, so I'll get back to timeattacking. I'll post my next update after beating the big bug. Once I figure out the buildup sequence it will be pretty straightforward up to that point.

Posted: 3/31/2005 10:47 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

Been a while now, wondering how you're doing.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 4/6/2005 6:09 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Hehe, sorry for leaving you hanging, I know how I will handle the swamp now, I just need to make up the final version of it. You can blame the new Game Boy recording capabilities for my distraction, I am working on a Mario Land run. Don't worry, I will finish Crystalis eventually.

Posted: 4/7/2005 7:31 AM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

Hmmm, I didn't realize there was a GB emulator with recording capabilities. I'll have to get myself a copy of that.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 4/13/2005 1:03 AM

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TheAxeMan

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Wow, thanks, I have to watch this. Reading through the notes, it appears that he deals with a lot of the same problems I do, but he doesn't use the wild warp so things are a bit different. By they way, I totally plan on getting back to this run after finishing Mario World, I'll finish it someday...

Posted: 4/13/2005 8:00 AM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

I have faith that you will. No hurry. With all the leveling up, it will have an uphill climb to get accepted anyways.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 4/13/2005 5:25 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Ok, watched the first half of the console speedrun, and saw something that will definitely help: the big bug boss can be killed on level 4, I had always thought it was 5. Anyway, this doesn't get me out of leveling in the swamp completely as I believe I need level 5 to hit the ice zombies (I'll check again). So I think the best I can do with this is to work it out so that killing the bug puts me on level 5. In effect, this moves 50 experience points from the swamp bugs to the ice zombies, which are faster and easier to work out. Another thing I've been pondering again, since this is going to take a while, is submitting the last run I did. It's well executed given the plan at the time, and the improvements I'm making now are far from obvious to the casual watcher.

Posted: 4/13/2005 5:58 PM

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Hamm

Joined: 7/29/2004
Posts: 136
Location: Temple City, CA

Honestly, I was surprised you never submitted the original completed version. It was well done...and even if it wasn't accepted, it would help with acception with the new version, when it is finished.

"How can you prove you exist? Maybe we don't exist..." -Vivi Ornitier (Final Fantasy IX)

Posted: 4/14/2005 2:57 AM

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DukeNukem007

Joined: 9/24/2004
Posts: 75

I agree, submit it--it's far from the longest NES or overall video on here (Star Tropics and warpless Mario 3 and I think Kirby) and looked very nice in spite of the tedious level building

"If all you did this year was sit in your cubicle and masturbate...say you're a self-starter who proactively reengineered your personal inventory with Total Quality, conforming to all EEO/OSHA/ISO9000 requirements."-Scott Adams

Posted: 4/14/2005 6:40 AM

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Bag_of_Magic_Food

He/Him

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No, don't submit it if you know it'll be obsoleted. That's just a waste. We can wait for the final version.

put yourself in my rocketpack if that poochie is one outrageous dude

Posted: 4/14/2005 11:47 PM

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TheAxeMan

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Well, my first full run had clearly poor planning in many spots. The second is much better, though I hesitated for the reason BOMF pointed out. However, I think there's a big difference between a simple 10-minute platformer run and a complex 40-min RPG run. Yes it will be obsoleted, but it will be at least a few months, I want to take my time on this (hopefully) final version. I'll make the submission soon.

Posted: 4/23/2005 10:57 PM

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TheAxeMan

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I randomly decided to check out the Japanese NES and USA GBC versions of this game. Some interesting changes, I will probably switch if I do a non-warping run. Really, I just can't get over the Japanese title, it's gotta be one of the best game titles ever, though I can see why it would have to change for the western world...