Joined: 8/27/2009
Posts: 159
Location: California
I may be a little late to the party, but the way I see it there's two major viewpoints here: 1: Skipping Ganon isn't entertaining, and thus shouldn't obsolete a more entertaining run. 2: Skipping Ganon is faster, and the site's stated philosophy is that we complete games as quickly as possible. In all honesty, I think the best way to reconcile is just to make a sub/splinter site with greater emphasis on entertainment, while tasvideos keeps itself devoted to "gotta go fast". Would that cause huge problems for people? Hell, you could just have a YouTube channel that hosts entertainment runs. The community could run it and preserve runs that are decided entertaining but not worthy of a new category or obsoleting an existing run. Basically, I just see a viewpoint that majorly differs from the site's intended goal and could be satisfied with minimal hassle. Let the official runs be as fast as possible, and you can publish entertaining runs for fun, informally.
Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4042
Antoids wrote:
In all honesty, I think the best way to reconcile is just to make a sub/splinter site with greater emphasis on entertainment, while tasvideos keeps itself devoted to "gotta go fast". Would that cause huge problems for people? Hell, you could just have a YouTube channel that hosts entertainment runs. The community could run it and preserve runs that are decided entertaining but not worthy of a new category or obsoleting an existing run. Basically, I just see a viewpoint that majorly differs from the site's intended goal and could be satisfied with minimal hassle. Let the official runs be as fast as possible, and you can publish entertaining runs for fun, informally.
I like this idea!
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Player (100)
Joined: 3/20/2008
Posts: 466
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPmvNChWjMI Someone actually made a video about whether wrong warping to the credits is considered beating the game. *Facepalm for the ages*
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4036
Vykan12 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPmvNChWjMI Someone actually made a video about whether wrong warping to the credits is considered beating the game. *Facepalm for the ages*
At least he agrees with the OoT TASers that it really is considered beating the game, and he's not clamoring for separate categories.
Joined: 6/5/2010
Posts: 18
Antoids wrote:
[...] 1: Skipping Ganon isn't entertaining, and thus shouldn't obsolete a more entertaining run. [...]
That's an interesting point, because in my opinion the new route is way more entertaining than fighting ganon and the extremely boring castle escape. What's so interesting in killing ganon? Isn't Dodongo's Cavern and a huge WTF-ending a lot more entertaining than crouch-stabbing ganondorf to death and running down stairs for two minutes afterwards? Plus it's faster, so in my opinion it should clearly obsolete the old run
Experienced player (689)
Joined: 2/5/2012
Posts: 1794
Location: Brasil
please someone do the new tas so this stupid argument will end...i'm tired of lurking all those principle discussions about what really is the end of the game,when we have new glitches to help further this game's knowledge
I want all good TAS inside TASvideos, it's my motto. TAS i'm interested: Megaman series, specially the RPGs! Where is the mmbn1 all chips TAS we deserve? Where is the Command Mission TAS? i'm slowly moving away from TASing fighting games for speed, maybe it's time to start finding some entertainment value in TASing.
Mitjitsu
He/Him
Banned User
Joined: 4/24/2006
Posts: 2997
It's of little relevence how much discussion happens in this thread or any other parts of the site. As we'll be subjected to the same arguments in the form of a 6+ page discussion when the eventual run is submitted months down the line.
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Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Antoids wrote:
I think the best way to reconcile is just to make a sub/splinter site with greater emphasis on entertainment, while tasvideos keeps itself devoted to "gotta go fast".
Splitting the site into more categories has been suggested several times in the past. It has never caught.
Joined: 11/2/2009
Posts: 44
Location: Chicago, IL
RBA destroys this game so much harder than the credits warp... I see no reason that any% no credits warp should be a category; it is already horribly glitched and skips everything
Joined: 12/30/2009
Posts: 49
I think we just need pages for each game that then link to the various submissions. That way we could get a lot more categories without adding much clutter. I don't think goals should be judged on arbitrariness but in their ability to produce a run people find interesting. The RBO Super Metroid run is a perfect recent example of this. If a movie is made that people still judge to be entertaining, optimized and innovative enough to have a place on the site, I don't think it should matter how arbitrary the goal or restrictions are. I'd honestly rather see 50 runs for Zelda all coming up with interesting restrictions or goals than 50 runs for random platformers I'll never play that just run to the credits. I may be alone in this opinion, but that's my two cents at least.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
There's millions of different ways the site could be modified to better support niche runs. All that's needed is for someone to make the code changes.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 1/5/2012
Posts: 52
Location: Maridia
I'll repeat what I said elsewhere: Subcategories and goals. Instead of just categorizing runs as "100%", "Any%", etc, you categorize them first by goal (complete everything, beat the last boss, just get to the end screen by any possible means, etc) and then by method/route (normal-but-superhuman play, using glitches X and Y, using glitch Z, etc). To me, "play the game faster and better than humanly possible" is a very different beast from "use frame-precise input to manipulate a memory corruption glitch to trick the game into jumping to the end scene". The latter is more like hacking the game than playing it, really. A communal Youtube channel is also a great idea.
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
Warp wrote:
Splitting the site into more categories has been suggested several times in the past. It has never caught.
Derakon wrote:
There's millions of different ways the site could be modified to better support niche runs. All that's needed is for someone to make the code changes.
This is the big issue. It takes 10 seconds to write a post about what should be done, i.e. telling others what to do. It takes hours, personal commitment, energy, and money to start a new site, or make massive overhaul to this site's structure. So yeah, people keep coming up with great ideas on how to improve the site. No one with the knowledge of internet/database type stuff has come forward to make a commitment to upgrading the site. The people on the admin team with that knowledge, Grunt, zeromus, adelikat, Bisqwit and Nach, honestly spend most their time (they invest in the site) just keeping things running, the best they can.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Joined: 12/30/2009
Posts: 49
Would the staff be open to the idea of someone coming on to attempt something like this? I can't say I'd have absolute confidence in being able to do it until I knew more about the current code, but I have done a fair bit of work in site backend, database interaction, etc. There's nothing about what I perceive to be the project that strikes me as outright impossible, at least. As far as time commitment, right now I can make no guarantees, but I think/hope over the summer I'll have enough free time to work on something like this. Also, funny coincidence, hit an error when I tried to make this post :)
Error in posting DEBUG MODE UPDATE users SET user_posts = user_posts + 1 WHERE user_id = 4521 Line : 674 File : functions_post.php Backtrace: includes/functions.php[745]: ErrorPrintBacktrace() includes/functions_post.php[674]: message_die(202, string(16) "Error in posting" , string(0) "" , 674, {string(61)}, {string(72)}) posting.php[682]: update_post_stats(string(5) "reply" , {array[4]}, string(1) "3" , 12469, 304451, string(4) "4521" )
From this glimpse of code alone I feel pretty comfortable I guess :)
evilas
They/Them
Joined: 7/31/2009
Posts: 68
I know I'm just a lurker, but I have an opinion on the categories: Can't Any% RBA and the new strategy be combined, while saving a new spot for Any% no RBA? That would sound reasonable, since the wrong warp to the end credits breaks the game about as much as RBA does. And no, I don't see TASVideos changing its structure anytime soon nor do I think it should.
Over a decade on this site, holy shit
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
evilas wrote:
I know I'm just a lurker, but I have an opinion on the categories: Can't Any% RBA and the new strategy be combined, while saving a new spot for Any% no RBA? That would sound reasonable, since the wrong warp to the end credits breaks the game about as much as RBA does. And no, I don't see TASVideos changing its structure anytime soon nor do I think it should.
I could certainly see that happening. OoT wouldn't be the first game to have a glitched any%, unglitched (or less-glitched) any%, and 100% run. Super Metroid is the example that leaps to mind (though possibly not the greatest example since it has a million categories), though I'm sure there are others as well.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
evilas
They/Them
Joined: 7/31/2009
Posts: 68
In my opinion, there should be 5 categories: Low% (debatable whether or not that should be split up), any% no major glitches, any% glitched, MST or All Quests, and 100%. Which ones are done, that's up to the TASers, but those should be the categories.
Over a decade on this site, holy shit
Skilled player (1651)
Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy
keatsta wrote:
Would the staff be open to the idea of someone coming on to attempt something like this? I can't say I'd have absolute confidence in being able to do it until I knew more about the current code, but I have done a fair bit of work in site backend, database interaction, etc. There's nothing about what I perceive to be the project that strikes me as outright impossible, at least.
We are always willing to accept extra help! We can also give you a local version of the site to play with, make improvements, etc.
Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.
Skilled player (1738)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4980
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
evilas wrote:
In my opinion, there should be 5 categories: Low% (debatable whether or not that should be split up), any% no major glitches, any% glitched, MST or All Quests, and 100%. Which ones are done, that's up to the TASers, but those should be the categories.
How exactly do you define "no major glitches"? What if a seemingly minor glitch used in a published, "low glitched" run was found to lead to a major, game-breaking route? =P
evilas
They/Them
Joined: 7/31/2009
Posts: 68
jlun2 wrote:
How exactly do you define "no major glitches"? What if a seemingly minor glitch used in a published, "low glitched" run was found to lead to a major, game-breaking route? =P
You mean like wrong warping/cutscene skipping? hard to say, but if it were up to me I'd say consider "no major glitches" as "no RBA, BA, or wrong-warping to a cutscene", at least for now. When a new glitch is found, I'd say deal with it when the time comes. Meanwhile, let's just worry about the current glitches. And yes, I know this is all open to interpretation, this is just my opinion. EDIT: thinking it through, BA is required for WW, so just say no BA or RBA, and again, when a new glitch is found, deal with it when the time comes.
Over a decade on this site, holy shit
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3571)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
keatsta wrote:
Would the staff be open to the idea of someone coming on to attempt something like this?
I would be VERY open to this idea. If you are interested, let's chat. However, I don't see why a major site overhaul is necessary for some kind of OoT category issue. We already have examples such as SMW or SMB where we have published both movies in similar situations. If the 'longer' movie is entertaining and has an audience, we would publish. However, I agree that as TASVideos continues to grow, the current categorization system is getting cumbersome and limiting. The problem is manpower, not desire.
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Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 160
Location: Philadelphia
Dropdown menus for each game would be pretty cool, especially if the items in the menus didn't load until clicked on. As of now, loading the game list by console is awfully resource-intensive on my poor, poor 1.5Mbps DSL connection.
Dwedit
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Joined: 3/24/2006
Posts: 692
Location: Chicago
Where can I find a video of beating the game by warping to the ending?
RachelB
She/Her
Player (129)
Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579
Dwedit wrote:
Where can I find a video of beating the game by warping to the ending?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KgD4Gr01yw That's the 3ds version, which uses a much different (and faster) route, but ends in the same way.
Experienced player (520)
Joined: 4/14/2009
Posts: 116
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5GvPPBGKFw This is of actual OoT. The ending is different from the 3DS version in that it is a bit more glitchy (talking to Zelda as Adult Link).