So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
The difference here is one of how official the bug is. Mupen is not official. Any behavioral differences between it and a real Nintendo 64 are bugs, and any run that relies on those behavioral differences cannot be published as it would be cheating. Compare the Super Mario Land 2 run that was submitted which relied on the emulator initializing memory to a certain value; when it was found that the console itself didn't do this, the run was retracted/rejected. Then we got an updated version of the emulator to behave properly.
In contrast, the emulator in the Virtual Console is official. It was published by Nintendo. So even if its behaviors don't match the real console it's imitating, we can chalk that up to version differences. Really this is more of a port -- like running, say, the Playstation version of Metal Slug instead of the arcade version.
Dolphin is just how we get access to that port. As long as it is itself an accurate emulator, it's completely immaterial to the discussion.
Remember, the theory is that you ought to be able to replace the controller with some form of digital signal source that replicates the inputs (TASBot-style) and get the same movie on real hardware. With Mupen and a real N64, you can't do that because the emulator is inaccurate. With Dolphin / VC Wii, so far as we know you could.
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What exactly is the difference between the N64 rom and the type of rom a VC runs?
The OoT VC ROM is N64 1.2 (the exact same ROM), run in a custom packaged emulator that does some texture replacements on the fly iirc. It's not the ROM that's different for stick on B, it's the emulator.
So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
Ah, I think I misunderstood the question, but I'm sure you already know what I'm going to say. The difference is obviously the level of emulation. To emulate OoT VC as a Wii game (attempting to be as accurate to the Wii behavior as possible), you would need to emulate the VC emulator within a Wii emulator.
If you think of OoT VC as a Wii game, there is something you can do on it that is pretty unique to that version of OoT: you can press the Home button on the Wii remote to bring up the Home menu. If you just run the OoT ROM contained within the VC package in an N64 emulator, then you're not emulating it as a Wii game, you're just replacing the emulator that runs on the Wii with an emulator that runs on the PC.
That said, I don't have a strong opinion about allowing or disallowing stick on B in a TAS (it's accepted in console runs, but obviously only if you're playing a version that supports it), and I don't know how this thread got turned into L+R being allowed or not, since that has nothing to do with what usable stick on B is: an inaccuracy in the emulator.
I think of L+R or U+D as physically possible via the following method:
When the system polls the controller for input, this takes a finite amount of time to read. A god-like player could press left, then right, so fast that both register to the polling service for that frame, even though they weren't physically pressed simultaneously.
I don't know inner workings of electronics, so maybe there is a flaw in that somewhere, but it made sense to me and stopped any questioning I may have had about the legitimacy of U+D/L+R/etc.
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That said, nobody is stopping you doing your TAS of the 'entertaining route' using mupen. It just won't be accepted here.
Yeah right. TASvideos has proven that they will accept almost anything, when they accepted abeshis OoT any% TAS, when everybody who knew the game told them how shit it was.
DarkKobold wrote:
Actually, I'm starting to see slowking's point, but not in a way that will make him happy. If the VC 'version' really is just the OoT rom being emulated, then Deku stick on B should just be banned, outright. It is an emulation error. Does it matter if the emulation error is inside the Wii, which is also being emulated by dolphin?
That is not the outcome I'd like to see. However it would at least make sense from some point of view.
I just find it insane trying to force people to use dolphin, when the result could be produced with mupen and just be filed under GC/Wii.
petrie911 wrote:
Or you could do the run on Master Quest. There's no version of that where the Deku Stick on B doesn't work.
Or how about the GCN version in general? It's clearly distinguishable as GCN, since it has the GCNs button collors. So everybody would know that this is in fact not a TAS that could be done on the N64.
Yeah right. TASvideos has proven that they will accept almost anything, when they accepted abeshis OoT any% TAS, when everybody who knew the game told them how shit it was.
Are you implying that TASVideos should leave the movie judging to only those people intimately familiar with the game? You should probably think that one through.
You may know more about OoT than I do, but your opinion on a TAS of it is no more important than mine. It was submitted at the request of adelikat, and people voted that it should be published, so it was published. ;p
In contrast, the emulator in the Virtual Console is official. It was published by Nintendo. So even if its behaviors don't match the real console it's imitating, we can chalk that up to version differences. Really this is more of a port -- like running, say, the Playstation version of Metal Slug instead of the arcade version.
Dolphin is just how we get access to that port. As long as it is itself an accurate emulator, it's completely immaterial to the discussion.
Except for the fact that it's not a port. If it was a port there wouldn't be discussion. It's just "Legend of Zelda, The - Ocarina of Time (U) (V1.2) [!].z64" in an emulator (yes even the checksum matches).
Remember, the theory is that you ought to be able to replace the controller with some form of digital signal source that replicates the inputs (TASBot-style) and get the same movie on real hardware. With Mupen and a real N64, you can't do that because the emulator is inaccurate. With Dolphin / VC Wii, so far as we know you could.
But with mupen on a real GC/Wii it will also work. So why not use mupen to emulate these versions?
ShadowWraith wrote:
Are you implying that TASVideos should leave the movie judging to only those people intimately familiar with the game? You should probably think that one through.
I'm implying that TASvideos shouldn't accept movies that are crap. In this case they (you) clearly did and everybody who knew a little about tasing this game could see it.
Even superplay looks good to the untrained eye. Does that mean tasvideos should lower itself to except every piece of crap?
Abeshis run was not even tased with the TAS input plugin. That should have been a big red flag for everybody. Even if they were blind.
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I thought U+D was already on a good number of site runs (ALttP comes to mind). What's the problem here?
I don't really have an opinion on the stick-B matter because I'm not all-too familiar with TASvideos rules, but I'll take the shift in conversation as a sign that we've all accepted Ganonless route as the new any% and are not trying to make it a new category (because we have functioning brains).
But with mupen on a real GC/Wii it will also work. So why not use mupen to emulate these versions?
Because mupen cannot emulate a gc/wii game.
Sorry, but the emulator is part of the games. If you remove the rom from the wii .wad, and tas that, you are not tasing the wii version. You are tasing the n64 version.
What about the GC version? There the buttons still look completely different? How is that a N64 version, when such a version never existed on the N64?
It's easily distinguishable as the GCN version, even when it's TASed on mupen.
Well, sure, you can tas that rom on mupen if you want. But if B stick doesn't work when you play that rom on an n64, then you still can't use in mupen.
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That's the only thing I can think of that's GC-exclusive besides the red B and the altered text (L-targeting in lieu of Z-targeting). I suppose that too is part of the emulator that live-patches the ROM.
I just think it's weird how VC doesn't have void hovers. I figured the emulators were pretty similar.
I dunno. I'd suggest testing it on an n64, but i doubt anyone here has the means to do so.
Might be worth testing in pj64 or something to see if void hovers work on that. Though i don't think it's even useful anyway?
Well, sure, you can tas that rom on mupen if you want. But if B stick doesn't work when you play that rom on an n64, then you still can't use in mupen.
So you are all for that? Good.
Oh and btw. yes it does work:
The game doesn't show the buttons when deku stick is out as adault. But the screenshots are just a few frames apart.
rog wrote:
I dunno. I'd suggest testing it on an n64, but i doubt anyone here has the means to do so.
Might be worth testing in pj64 or something to see if void hovers work on that. Though i don't think it's even useful anyway?
Ofcourse this won't work on an N64. But mupen is NOT an N64. Mupen is an emulator. And it can emulate the GC version. And the GC version can do this on console. So why shouldn't we use mupen to emulate the GC version and put it into a GC category?
I'm implying that TASvideos shouldn't accept movies that are crap. In this case they (you) clearly did and everybody who knew a little about tasing this game could see it.
Even superplay looks good to the untrained eye. Does that mean tasvideos should lower itself to except every piece of crap?
Abeshis run was not even tased with the TAS input plugin. That should have been a big red flag for everybody. Even if they were blind.
You and I seem to have different expectations of what a TAS constitutes. You know, super-human displays of skill in a video game, where the primary goals are entertainment and speed. It was entertaining and it was faster than the run the site had at the time. What's not to like?
Yes, abeshi's run wasn't 100% optimal. I personally wouldn't call it crap, but since it was never originally created to be submitted here, and was done so by request of the staff, saying we should've then rejected it because ~the elite~ thought it was bad while the majority didn't is a little bit stupid, don't you think?
This is all really offtopic though. You seem to think that since TASVideos accepted abeshi's run, that they'd accept this one? When it quite flagrantly violates the rule that this TAS was rejected for? Good luck.
I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
That it works on mupen certainly would suggest that it at least might work on console.
If the GC rom does in fact allow for using the B stick when played on an actual n64, then i would withdraw all objections to using it in a tas, so long as it was done with the GC rom.
The issue now is actually proving that is the case. Is anyone able, or know someone who can test the gc rom on an n64?
Enterim wrote:
aleckermit owns a Nintendo 64 flash cart that can play ROMs on the original hardware, I'd recommend asking him.
I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
Oh it will totally crash on an N64. But that doesn't matter. Mupen is not an N64. And this is clearly the GC version. Everbody can see this. Nobody will expect that it works on the N64.
They will expect it to work on a GC and that it does.
ShadowWraith wrote:
You and I seem to have different expectations of what a TAS constitutes. You know, super-human displays of skill in a video game, where the primary goals are entertainment and speed. It was entertaining and it was faster than the run the site had at the time. What's not to like?
For anybody who knew a little about OoT TAsing or even OoT speedrunning it was not entertaining, it was infuriating.
Ofcourse somebody that doesn't know better thinks it's pretty good. 3D games are hard to gage. Does that mean we should except every bit of superplay from now on, just because casual viwers won't know the difference?
The run was objectively crap, plain and simple. You can see that by the fact how much Bloob improved on it. You guys published crap here.
I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
Oh it will totally crash on an N64. But that doesn't matter. Mupen is not an N64. And this is clearly the GC version. Everbody can see this. Nobody will expect that it works on the N64.
Except the rom inside the gc version is NOT a GC game. It's an n64 game. The the emulator is part of the GC game. You cannot just remove parts of the game because you don't like it.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
So what's the difference between a emulator named dolphin running "N64 1.2" and an emulator name mupen running "N64 1.2"? Could we just make a copy of mupen and rename it "dolphinv2" a VC emulator that only works on N64 VC roms?
The difference here is one of how official the bug is. Mupen is not official. Any behavioral differences between it and a real Nintendo 64 are bugs, and any run that relies on those behavioral differences cannot be published as it would be cheating.
It's an emulation bug if it's being used as a N64 emulator, but if it's being used a VC emulator then it's an accurate emulator.
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I think rog was saying you should dump the GC ROM to an N64 cart and see if it crashes on the console, not that you should try it in mupen...
Oh it will totally crash on an N64. But that doesn't matter. Mupen is not an N64. And this is clearly the GC version. Everbody can see this. Nobody will expect that it works on the N64.
Except the rom inside the gc version is NOT a GC game. It's an n64 game. The the emulator is part of the GC game. You cannot just remove parts of the game because you don't like it.
It's not an N64 game. There is no such version on the N64 and it clearly does have N64 buttons. The emulator is just a wrapper to make the game run. There is no game code in there.
Next you'll tell me a processor is part of a game or a graphics chip.
Yes there is, it's just not an official release.
The rom used needs to be an exact copy of what is on the disk. If you remove the emulator on the disk, then it is far from an exact copy.
The game doesn't show the buttons when deku stick is out as adault. But the screenshots are just a few frames apart.
