I can understand and respect that. But do you get that on VC and maybe GC actual hardware people use this in their RTSes?
Of course. And i have no problem with you doing the same in a wii/gc emulator.
We're trying to make a N64 TAS, we're trying to make TAS of something people are already making RTS for, mupen can act as an emulator for such hardware, we want to make a run like the RTS and publish it under the same console category as the RTS. Currently Mupen is the best option to do this. No one here wants to make a N64 run that does stuff the N64 can't do. I think everyone here wants to see a GC/VC run like the RTS but TASed. We are trying to make that happen. Blinding upload values without realizing the actual consequences or what is actualy going to be done is not helping that happen.
Cheating just because you don't feel like dealing with dolphin seems a bit silly to me. I do understand dolphin is a pain, because it runs so slow, but having spent quite a bit of time tasing with it, i promise, it's not unreasonable. It even gets bonus points for syncing perfectly, seemingly 100% of the time (to my knowledge there has never once been a desync with dolphin since nitsuja's fixes 3 months ago). Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
You, or anyone else is welcome to do the run in mupen. If it's done, i will watch, and enjoy the run. But if it is submitted here, i will vote no, for the reasons i already explained.
While nearly every run published here fails this in technical sense, they come pretty close. I feel a run done on Mupen, published as VC or GC, does this as close as we can with our current emulators. It will give us series of key-presses which may be performed on the original hardware, that hardware being the VC or GC.
Well, if you want to tas it in mupen, then convert the .m64 to .dtm and playback in dolphin, then go for it. I don't know that you'll be able to get it to sync though.
Translating the m64 into a dtm is a non-trivial task. The emulator used on the other versions transforms the analog stick values in a way that hasn't been worked out entirely.
And just to open a new can of worms, does this mean Master Quest has to be TASed through Dolphin, should anyone have the urge to do so?
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
Unless dying in the temple of time ends up being slower than just doing the previous rba route, and killing ganon.
I don't know off hand if that would be the case though.
Though it also makes it much harder for people to be motivated to do the run, knowing that reset recording could be added the next day, obsoleting half of their run.
Granted, at this time, it's not usable for oot, because there is no reset recording, but dolphin has a bunch of active developers, so that may not be too hard to get added.
I am of the opinion (and other OoT people may disagree with me) that this isn't a big deal. No OoT TAS submitted here before Swordless' very recent MST TAS used resets (because Mupen didn't support them, or maybe they didn't sync). OoT resets can often be simulated by dying. It's a bit slower, but you get the same effect. Console runners only do 2 hard resets in OoT any% (with stick B), and one would probably be slower in a TAS anyway. The only big one is Adult in ToT, and you can die there to get a savewarp type of effect.
It would be slower without resets than with resets, but I think stick B with no resets would be faster than no stick B with resets. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's out of the question.
Unless dying in the temple of time ends up being slower than just doing the previous rba route, and killing ganon.
I don't know off hand if that would be the case though.
I am very positive that it would not be. The new route stands to save several minutes over the previous TAS that kills Ganon. Part of the strength of the new Ganonless trick is that it skips the part of the credit with textboxes that must manually be advanced, so you can end input much earlier.
rog wrote:
Though it also makes it much harder for people to be motivated to do the run, knowing that reset recording could be added the next day, obsoleting half of their run.
This is definitely a valid concern. Based on what I've heard from them, the regular OoT TASers (Swordless, MrGrunz, Slowi, Bloobiebla) are already kind of split on stick B anyway.
Okay guys, I don't see how this is so complicated. OoT N64 and OoT VC are different games (shoutouts to angerfist). The sole difference between them is not just stick on B (among other things, there are lag, loading time, and slight control differences). Thus modifying mupen to allow stick on B would not even be attempting to "play VC on an easier emulator" it would be playing your own creation. If you want to do that and call it an OoT hack, go ahead, but that -would not be Ocarina of Time-, N64 version or VC version.
That's really bullshitty, RR.
None of the emulators emulates lag accurately and none uses input devices the actual console would use.
So both your arguments don't hold water. The GCN version in mupen is the GCN version. Emulators are not part of the game. Mupen will emulate this version reasonably acurate. Just as well or better than Dolphin would.
rog wrote:
petrie911 wrote:
And just to open a new can of worms, does this mean Master Quest has to be TASed through Dolphin, should anyone have the urge to do so?
No. It can be TASed with mupen, so long as no emulation glitches are abused, just like with OoT.
So that means you want to disallow gltiches that are possible in that version and put it on a "console" (well the category of that console) where it never existed?
What happened to "the game should perform as on the original console? MQs original console is GCN.
Emulators aren't perfectly accurate but we can try to be as accurate as possible. Mupen doesn't even try to attempt to do proper loading times.
But if you don't like those version differences, want more?
How about the "You have to use the Classic controller" screen every time you reset. You know, the thing that adds a second penalty to every savewarp.
Or how about the Mirror Shield design in VC being different than the N64 Mirror Shield design? This should serve as proof that there are actually differences to the game, and there may be plenty we don't even realize that could effect a TAS (cough dampe's gravestone cough).
I don't see why you are so insistant that N64 on a modified mupen is essentially VC as surely you know enough to know there are differences.
Edit: Slowi clarified on IRC that he wants to use the ROM found in the MQ disc, and TAS it on mupen.
[21:36:44] <RingRush> when you buy a mq disc
[21:36:51] <RingRush> you don't buy the rom they used
[21:36:56] <RingRush> you buy a game that has an emulator that has a game
[21:37:11] <RingRush> so using just the rom inside the gc disc is not an actual game that is for sale, it is just a component of a game
Add to that the fact that you are completely removing the long savewarps from the actual disc (where you have to select which version of OoT you are playing, standard or Master Quest), and I just can't see how you can call playing this on mupen an accurate representation of a commercially released game.
Mupen doesn't even try to attempt to do proper loading times.
Neither does dolphin, and frankly, i don't know see why it should. The load times aren't required by the hardware, and can often even be bypassed/changed by things like adjusting the resistance to the laser in an optical drive, or even loading games directly from a hdd (or ssd for extra fast loading) in some cases.
The ethics of doing such things are of course a huge grey area, but it is still possible to get the same load times on the original consoles (at least for some consoles) as would be seen in an emulator.
For we all we know Mupen is a more accurate VC emulator than Dolphin. None the of emulators used to make any of the videos here are completely accurate and we'll never know all the differences and we can't definitively and objectively quantify how much better one emulator emulates the actual console over another. It's a very gray area we've just been trying to do the best we can. I don't see how using Mupen as a VC emulator is any different than what we've always done and always will do.
Imagine if Mupen was created as a VC emulator, still being the exact same code, I don't think we'd ever be having this debate, Mupen and Dolphin very well could have been switched.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen is not a "VC emulator", stop saying that. Usually it's a good idea to stop trying to trick people with clever wordsmithing when people have already called your bullshit.
A VC emulator is specifically not what you want. A VC emulator would be running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Remember? Isn't that what you wanted to avoid doing?
Anywho. I just noticed again how fucking pointless this discussion is. How do you keep draggin me back in?
As long as there is no route that is faster than the RBA route nobody will TAS this game with stick on B. If there is another route found we can still bash our skulls in.
For the time being, I'm out.
Mupen is not a "VC emulator", stop saying that. Usually it's a good idea to stop trying to trick people with clever wordsmithing when people have already called your bullshit.
A VC emulator is specifically not what you want. A VC emulator would be running an n64 emulator inside a wii emulator. Remember? Isn't that what you wanted to avoid doing?
Okay, So I'll rename A windows emulator Wiiemu2000, and Mupen to VC2000, and then run VC2000 inside of Wiiemu2000. So I have a Wii emulator emulating VC emulating N64, which would just as accurate as dolphin, the same situation with the real Wii, and not doing any glitches that the Wii doesn't do. Seems like a winner to me, that's what you want right?
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
Joined: 2/28/2012
Posts: 160
Location: Philadelphia
Slowking wrote:
Anywho. I just noticed again how fucking pointless this discussion is. How do you keep draggin me back in?
As long as there is no route that is faster than the RBA route nobody will TAS this game with stick on B. If there is another route found we can still bash our skulls in.
For the time being, I'm out.
All the Ganonless routes (both with and without stick B) are already faster than the old RBA route by several minutes.
Anywho. I just noticed again how fucking pointless this discussion is. How do you keep draggin me back in?
As long as there is no route that is faster than the RBA route nobody will TAS this game with stick on B. If there is another route found we can still bash our skulls in.
For the time being, I'm out.
All the Ganonless routes (both with and without stick B) are already faster than the old RBA route by several minutes.
You and some other people misunderstood something completely. Of course skipping ganon is faster, this is out of question and has never even been questioned by anyone in this thread.
I created a route that beats forest temple to get Farore's Wind on B, which requieres Stick on B no matter what to get past the Door of Time as adult to be able to BA later on. This route is around a minute slower than using Light Arrow CS to do RBA, but it is much much much much more entertaining.
As long as it isn't faster nobody will TAS the route using Stick B, but once we find a way to make it faster I'll definitely do it, because I don't really care if tasvideos will accept it or not. The route is too awesome not be done.
Stick B could also save some time in the Light Arrow CS route, but stealing rod twice and dropping something around 30-40 seconds to avoid any controversies is definitely worth it. The huge difference between both routes is, that the no-Trading-Item-Route (no Light Arrow CS route) HAS to use Stick B to be doable.
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
So what's constitutes a proper emulation? Because you could say the same about Dolphin. It seems very subjective and arbitrary.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'll start the home page for Wiiemu2000, a Wii emulator that properly emulates the VC, fully compatible with VC2000, and VC2000, a VC emulator that properly emulates the N64 being emulated by VC just as accurately as dolphin.
If it properly emulates it, then sure, why not?
But it's not going to.
So what's constitutes a proper emulation? Because you could say the same about Dolphin. It seems very subjective and arbitrary.
It has to at least try to emulate it, instead of just emulating something completely different instead.
What mupen is doing is emulating an N64, that is trying to be what an N64 is. It is not an N64, so it does not emulate perfectly. This would mean that it is prone to bugs and other issues that will either hinder or help in what the original hardware is trying to do. The VC and GC releases also come with an emulator albeit an official one, and therefor are trying to be an N64. The Stick B works on these official emulators. I don't see any reason that the same trick cannot be used on a unofficial emulator such as mupen. We all know mupen isn't an N64, and neither is GC/VC.
