Hey, I wonder how accurate the NES emulator in Animal Crossing is. Maybe we can beat the current Super Mario Bros runs by playing it in Dolphin... :P *ducks and runs*
So TASing a virtual console game because it's a different revision of the game with something new in it? Cool. Extract the ROM and run it in a regular emulator.
Trick is it's not a different revision. It's the same binary, just packaged with an inaccurate emulator. But people want to say it's OK to ignore the inaccuracies, because Nintendo wrote the emulator, so it counts as TASing a Nintendo game...
Some games do get altered from their original form. Metroid Zero Mission on the GBA got a modified version of NES Metroid, but will still run the original game fine if you hack it in. I mentioned that Tecmo Bowl got censored. Other games have had their password systems changed to not use vowels (so there's no swear words generated).
And yes, just because it's from Nintendo doesn't mean it's more accurate.
Joined: 2/28/2012
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Location: Philadelphia
With OoT, the issue is that stick B works with one graphics plugin and doesn't work with a different one. Neither is really "official", so it raises the question: can we use a different graphics plugin because it allows a glitch that does not work on the original hardware?
As much as I want to say yes, I'll begrudgingly admit that's very sketchy.
When you have an issue like that, you try to find out WHY it works with one graphics plugin and not another. If it would work on hardware, it's legal. Otherwise, you're at Super Mario Land 2 territory.
The argument is basically that mupen behaves similar (but not the same) as a different version of the game, so they want to use it instead of dolphin, even though the only reason it works is because of an inaccurate emulation. They think this is justified for the sole reason of mupen being more convenient to tas in than dolphin.
That's the same straw-man you used repeatedly in the OoT thread, it's very misleading and fallacious.
What is a emulation inaccuracy for N64 is actually an accuracy for Wii or GC version, so it's emulated what we're trying to emulate properly and is good emulation. We think this is justified because as far we as know this just as accurate if not a better emulation of the Wii or GC version as what Dolphin provides. The Convenience has nothing to do with this justification, the convenience has to do with the cost/reward analysis. There comes a point where very minor inaccuracies have to be accepted just so we can get runs up here, which is the only why any runs have every been accepted here, not because they were emulated perfectly, but because cost/reward was such that it was worth accepting their emulation inaccuracies.
And uses Mupen so far wouldn't be extra cost of more emulation inaccuracies because we haven't objectively analysed the emulation accurateness of both emulators and there's not a reason to believe that one is more accurate than the other. Uses Arcum's razors the simplest and most obvious answer is just use Mupen and publish it as a Wii emulation, there's great benefit to go this route and no cost.
Rename Mupen to VC/GC/Wii emulator if you care that much other semantics, and publish the code as a emulator that was trying to be a VC/GC/Wii emulator.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
There comes a point where very minor inaccuracies have to be accepted just so we can get runs up here
This isn't a minor inaccuracy, and it is not unavoidable.
What is a emulation inaccuracy for N64 is actually an accuracy for Wii or GC version
Right, so if you want to tas the wii or gc version, then you can use the B stick.
Rename Mupen to VC/GC/Wii emulator if you care that much other semantics, and publish the code as a emulator that was trying to be a VC/GC/Wii emulator.
It's not about semantics. Being able to use a B stick without the game crashing is an emulation glitch. Actually doing so, is cheating. Mupen does not, and cannot emulate the wii version, and pretending it can is a lie.
Anyway, mods locked the other thread because they obviously wanted this discussion to end, so this will be my last post on the subject. If for whatever reason you want to continue this, pm me, and we can repeat the same arguments over and over again some more.
You're missing the very obvious point. Let me put it in capitals for you.
MUPEN IS NOT A WII/GC/VC EMULATOR. IT IS A NINTENDO 64 EMULATOR. IT WILL NEVER BE A WII/GC/VC EMULATOR NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WANT IT TO BE. LABELLING IT AS ONE FOR THE SAKE OF SATISFYING YOUR OWN DESIRE FOR A SINGLE EMULATION GLITCH TO BE ACCEPTED IN A SINGLE GAME IS RETARDED. IF YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND THIS, THEN THERE IS NO HOPE FOR YOU.
You're a very difficult and irritating person to try and have a discussion with because you completely ignore what the other person is saying as though the only person with a correct opinion is you, even when your opinion is so incredibly flawed that you need to wrap it in several layers if idiocy for it to make sense.
This isn't a minor inaccuracy, and it is not unavoidable.
I think this is what you're not getting or pretending to not recognize, For a Wii/GC/VC publication, which is what we want to make, this is an ACCURACY, not an inaccuracy.
It's not about semantics. Being able to use a B stick without the game crashing is an emulation glitch. Actually doing so, is cheating. Mupen does not, and cannot emulate the wii version, and pretending it can is a lie.
The only reason you say Mupen does not, and cannot emulate a Wii/GC/VC version is semantical. So what if I if set out to create a Wii/GC/VC emulator, borrow code from Mupen to do this, and then publish it as a Wii/GC/VC emulator with limitation in what it can emulate?
At what point can you accept that a emulator is a Wii/GC/VC emulator, what ultimately matters and what does it come down? I think that is only piece we're not on agreement here. We straighten that out and we can solve this debate.
I think they wanted the debate to be here where it belongs and not a game thread where it clutters it up off-topic.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
The only reason you Mupen does, and cannot emulate a Wii/GC/VC version is semantical. So what if I if set out to create a Wii/GC/VC emulator, borrow code from Mupen to do this, and then publish it as a Wii/GC/VC emulator with limitation is what it can emulate?
At what point can you accept that a emulator is a Wii/GC/VC emulator, what ultimately matters and what does it come down? I think that is only piece we're not on agreement here. We straighten that out and we can solve this debate.
Generally something is labelled as a console emulator when it properly emulates the console it's trying to emulate.
This should not be hard to understand and quite frankly it kind of saddens me that I had to say this as though it wasn't obvious.
The only reason you Mupen does, and cannot emulate a Wii/GC/VC version is semantical. So what if I if set out to create a Wii/GC/VC emulator, borrow code from Mupen to do this, and then publish it as a Wii/GC/VC emulator with limitation is what it can emulate?
At what point can you accept that a emulator is a Wii/GC/VC emulator, what ultimately matters and what does it come down? I think that is only piece we're not on agreement here. We straighten that out and we can solve this debate.
Generally something is labelled as a console emulator when it properly emulates the console it's trying to emulate.
This should not be hard to understand and quite frankly it kind of saddens me that I had to say this as though it wasn't obvious.
So what if it's a VC emulator that only tries to emulate N64/GC emulation of the VC? Then it's a VC emulator that's emulating what it tries to emulate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Then it's not emulating a console and it wouldn't be accepted here. The VC is not a console. It's an emulator.
If say, you were running VC under a Wii emulator, say... Dolphin, then sure. Go nuts.
You know, like people have been saying this entire time.
Then it's not emulating a console and it wouldn't be accepted here. The VC is not a console. It's an emulator.
If say, you were running VC under a Wii emulator, say... Dolphin, then sure. Go nuts.
You know, like people have been saying this entire time.
Okay, so what if you Turn a Windows emulator into a Wii emulator which only tries to emulate the VC coponent of the Wii, then run the Mupen based VC emulator inside the Wii emulator?
Or what if you combine Mupen into Dolphin So Dolphin Calls on Mupen when you emulate the N64 games in the VC in Wii using Dolphin?
I'm going to continue along this line until you admit this is a debate over semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
How about we just stop trying to shoehorn Mupen into doing things it's not designed to do and instead use the emulator that IS designed to do these things?
Edit: I know full well this is a debate about semantics. You're the one arguing them. However, Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
How about we just stop trying to shoehorn Mupen into doing things it's not designed to do and instead use the emulator that IS designed to do these things?
That doesn't answer my quesions, and to answer your question, because it much more desirable to use Mupen to make a TAS than Dolphin, and the only difference is semantics.
Edit:
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Why do your questions need answering?
Okay, I'll answer them.
1.) No, that would be stupid because we already have a Wii emulator, we don't have a Windows emulator and writing a program that only emulates one program inside of a console is a stupid idea.
2.) You don't need to combine mupen into dolphin to emulate VC games because dolphin already emulates the VC by itself.
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Why do your questions need answering?
Okay, I'll answer them.
1.) No, that would be stupid because we already have a Wii emulator, we don't have a Windows emulator and writing a program that only emulates one program inside of a console is a stupid idea.
2.) You don't need to combine mupen into dolphin to emulate VC games because dolphin already emulates the VC by itself.
It's not stupid because the Wii emulator we have is undesirable to TAS with because it's slow and my solution would be more desirable to TAS with and be faster, it's a smart idea.
Dolphin emulates the VC slowly, Mupen does it better, that's why you need to do it.
And whether or an alternative emulator exist has never been grounds for not accepting a different emulator if it has benefits over the existing one, which we clearly have here.
So you've providing no valid reasons to reject the emulators I've proposed as solutions.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen doesn't emulate the VC. At all. It never will. The similarities between Mupen and the VC end beyond being able to run N64 ROMs.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
It's not stupid because the Wii emulator we have is undesirable to TAS with because it's slow and my solution would be more desirable to TAS with and be faster, it's a smart idea.
THIS is semantics. This is you arguing for something stupid because you don't like using Dolphin because it requires a powerful computer. It is not a smart idea.
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
