And whether or an alternative emulator exist has never been grounds for not accepting a different emulator if it has benefits over the existing one, which we clearly have here.
So you've providing no valid reasons to reject the emulators I've proposed as solutions.
In past cases, the benefits have almost exclusively involved the words 'emulation accuracy'. You know, FCEU replacing Famtasia because it emulated the NES more accurately. Snes9x replacing ZSNES because it emulated the SNES more accurately. Psxjin replacing PCSX because it emulated the PSX more accurately. Mupen does not emulate the Wii more accurately than Dolphin. It never will. This is why your idea is dumb.
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
Fun fact: Mupen doesn't emulate the N64 component of the VC in a very visible way. The N64 component of the VC replaces the moon symbols with the gerudo symbol on the fly. The ROM itself is unchanged, unlike the Gamecube version.
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
No, no it can't. It shares a feature with the VC in that it can emulate N64 ROMs. It cannot emulate any part of the VC itself. This should not be difficult to understand.
Mupen doesn't emulate the VC. At all. It never will. The similarities between Mupen and the VC end beyond being able to run N64 ROMs.
Spider-Waffle wrote:
It's not stupid because the Wii emulator we have is undesirable to TAS with because it's slow and my solution would be more desirable to TAS with and be faster, it's a smart idea.
THIS is semantics. This is you arguing for something stupid because you don't like using Dolphin because it requires a powerful computer. It is not a smart idea.
Yes, there are more similarities than not only running N64 ROMs, it also it's get the right amount of memory so stick on B functions similar, thanks for pointing that out.
This is all semantics, that's my point, we are forcing people to use an undesirable solution because of semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Mupen being an N64 emulator is not a semantic. It's a fact.
It's semantics that it can't also be a different emulator which emulates N64 roms.
No. It's a fact. It's not semantics that a car is not a bike. It's not semantics that a shirt is not a pair of trousers. It's not semantics that a keyboard is not a mouse. Why would it be semantics that Mupen is an N64 emulator and not a VC emulator?
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
Fun fact: Mupen doesn't emulate the N64 component of the VC in a very visible way. The N64 component of the VC replaces the moon symbols with the gerudo symbol on the fly. The ROM itself is unchanged, unlike the Gamecube version.
Okay, so we could add a texture swap to Mupen keep that accurate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Yes, there are more similarities than not only running N64 ROMs, it also it's get the right amount of memory so stick on B functions similar, thanks for pointing that out.
You mean Mupen and the VC both share a single emulation inaccuracy in a single game? Holy shit call me converted, let's label it as a VC emulator right now!
Spider-Waffle wrote:
This is all semantics, that's my point, we are forcing people to use an undesirable solution because of semantics.
We aren't forcing people to do anything. If they choose not to TAS Wii/GC games because the emulator needs a powerful computer to run, that's their decision. This is not semantics. Look the word up.
Because Mupen can successfully emulate the N64 component of the VC. If a Car could function as a bike just as well as a certain bike then it's only semantics that you can't use the car as a bike and call it a bike.
No, no it can't. It shares a feature with the VC in that it can emulate N64 ROMs. It cannot emulate any part of the VC itself. This should not be difficult to understand.
I'm not calling Mupen a full fledged VC emulator, I'm calling a VC emulator that only supports N64 roms, which it seems to do a better job of emulator than it does an N64 because it's a has memory which allows for stick on B like the VC does.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Yes, there are more similarities than not only running N64 ROMs, it also it's get the right amount of memory so stick on B functions similar, thanks for pointing that out.
You mean Mupen and the VC both share a single emulation inaccuracy in a single game? Holy shit call me converted, let's label it as a VC emulator right now!
Spider-Waffle wrote:
This is all semantics, that's my point, we are forcing people to use an undesirable solution because of semantics.
We aren't forcing people to do anything. If they choose not to TAS Wii/GC games because the emulator needs a powerful computer to run, that's their decision. This is not semantics. Look the word up.
You are forcing them to if they want to publish their run here. It's semantics that some peopole call Mupen and N64 emulator and that only and others call it a VC emulator that only emulates the N64 component of VC as well.
So Far the only non-semantical argument I've seen for requiring Dolphin to be used is that The N64 component of the VC replaces the moon symbols with the gerudo symbol on the fly. I don't even know if this texture would be seen in this run, this wouldn't be the first time textural emulation inaccuracies have been accepted though, Goldeneye did as well.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
I'm not calling a full fledged VC emulator, I'm calling a VC emulator that only supports N64 roms, which it seems to do a better job of emulator than it does an N64 because it's a has memory which allows for stick on B like the VC does.
I'm not calling a full fledged VC emulator, I'm calling a VC emulator that only supports N64 roms, which it seems to do a better job of emulator than it does an N64 because it's a has memory which allows for stick on B like the VC does.
Does a real N64 allow stick on b?
No, the N64 component of the VC emulator does though, which is what EVERYONE wants a stick on B run to published under, but there is opposition that wants the runner to use a more cumbersome emulator within an emulator for reasons of semantics.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
in my opinion, that VC can't/can run N64 games is not the best arguement, neither is the texture diffrences. The biggest arguement is that VC actually need to be inside a wii, or a wii emulator. The same goes for the N64 emulator inside the GC. These emulators use other ways of saving the game and got other inputs. Also I'm not sure about the timing rules for a Zelda OoT run on VC, but I would guess it starts when you turn on the wii, not when you start Zelda OoT in the VC emulator. IIRC, you can still have some Wii inputs like going back to the Wii homepage while playing on VC.
Sorry, but I can't see how you can ignore the fact that you actually need the VC to be inside a Wii emulator(or the parts you need to be able to emulate of the Wii emulator).
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
which is what EVERYONE wants the run to published under
That's rather presumptuous.
Well I haven't seen a single person arguing that a stick on B run should be published under N64, and I've been following every post, so I think it's accurate.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
in my opinion, that VC can't/can run N64 games is not the best arguement, neither is the texture diffrences. The biggest arguement is that VC actually need to be inside a wii, or a wii emulator. The same goes for the N64 emulator inside the GC. These emulators use other ways of saving the game and got other inputs. Also I'm not sure about the timing rules for a Zelda OoT run on VC, but I would guess it starts when you turn on the wii, not when you start Zelda OoT in the VC emulator. IIRC, you can still have some Wii inputs like going back to the Wii homepage while playing on VC.
Sorry, but I can't see how you can ignore the fact that you actually need the VC to be inside a Wii emulator(or the parts you need to be able to emulate of the Wii emulator).
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Right, which is why I proposed putting inside a Windows emulator labeled a Wii emulator, or having Dolphin call Mupen when it emulates N64 roms. Standard rules for RTS run never use see the Wii screens, ever, they are only concerned with the N64 emulation, which I think TAS community should follow suit.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
Assuming we want such a run published at all.
Hophoolio wrote:
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Oh, I think it's pretty obvious he's not.
I suppose there are maybe a couple that don't want to see stick on B ever, even if it is faster.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
So you want to use an emulator glitch to pull off a trick not possible on the original hardware? I'd half wager it would be rejected on that basis, much like the original super mario land 2 glitched tas, regardless of console category.
So you want to use an emulator glitch to pull off a trick not possible on the original hardware? I'd half wager it would be rejected on that basis, much like the original super mario land 2 glitched tas, regardless of console category.
The difference with this case and the SML2 case is that the SML2 could not be performed on any version of the game. Here, it can be performed on the Wii or GC version which what we would publish the run under if we did publish it.
And no, we want to use a emulation accuracy to use a glitch which can be performed on the original hardware, that being the Wii or GC.
"Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence."
in my opinion, that VC can't/can run N64 games is not the best arguement, neither is the texture diffrences. The biggest arguement is that VC actually need to be inside a wii, or a wii emulator. The same goes for the N64 emulator inside the GC. These emulators use other ways of saving the game and got other inputs. Also I'm not sure about the timing rules for a Zelda OoT run on VC, but I would guess it starts when you turn on the wii, not when you start Zelda OoT in the VC emulator. IIRC, you can still have some Wii inputs like going back to the Wii homepage while playing on VC.
Sorry, but I can't see how you can ignore the fact that you actually need the VC to be inside a Wii emulator(or the parts you need to be able to emulate of the Wii emulator).
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Right, which is why I proposed putting inside a Windows emulator labeled a Wii emulator, or having Dolphin call Mupen when it emulates N64 roms. Standard rules for RTS run never use see the Wii screens, ever, they are only concerned with the N64 emulation, which I think TAS community should follow suit.
:P that post about using windows as a wii emulator was the post I figured you must be trolling :) atleast for 1 post :)
I don't think anyone is against the run(or maybe some are against it), but you can't call it a N64/VC/GC run, that would be lieing. You can call it a run that would be close to a VC run, playing on an N64 emulator while abusing an emulator glitch to enable a VC run route. As long as you keep the facts straight and don't lie about how this is possible or how this is a good emulation of VC, then it's all good, but don't hope for a N64 publish on TASVideos.
Assuming we want such a run published at all.
Hophoolio wrote:
Also I think it's pretty obvious that Spider-Waffle is just trolling.
Oh, I think it's pretty obvious he's not.
I suppose there are maybe a couple that don't want to see stick on B ever, even if it is faster.
You know, it's more than just the moon texture. It's also the "You must use the Classic Controller" on boot and reset, and I think fire temple music, and probably a few other things. But why would you make an emulator for one game when a wii emulator able to play VC wads could just play ANY VC game? And if you just re-purpose mupen, you end up with Atma's point, that relying on a known emulation glitch for the system the emulator purports to emulate is going to be rejected. Sure, maybe proof-of-concept for when wii emulation is more mature, but other than that....
Also, Hophoolio and petrie911, I point you here :)
Okay, here's the thing:
OoT is for the N64
VC OoT is for the Wii
You can not run VC OoT on the N64.
You would require a Wii emulator.
Mupen is not a Wii emulator.
Your idea to run Mupen from Dolphin is not only infeasible, it's missing the point.
If you want to TAS Mupen, use Hourglass, then that's fine. It won't be accepted here, but we won't say you didn't TAS Mupen playing OoT.
The problem is that you are acting as if this is a theoretical debate of semantics, when this is an actual thing.
You want to run a Wii game (VC OoT) in an N64 emulator.
This won't work.
You can try to make Mupen simulate the virtual console, but then you're using a different emulator to play an N64 game (OoT64) that simply looks like the virtual console version.
If you want to use the B Stick glitch, open Dolphin and TAS VC OoT.
If you want to do it quickly, open Mupen and TAS OoT64.
You can not TAS VC OoT in Mupen.
You can not TAS OoT64 in Dolphin.
Simply because a game (VC OoT) does the same thing as an emulator (OoT64) does not make them the same thing.
Is an AK-47 the same as an AKM?
Is an iPad the same as iPad 2?
Is DOS the same as FreeDOS?
What you seem to understand is that we're not making fun of you with the "Emulator in an Emulator" bit.
That is literally what is being suggested.
Understand that VC OoT is Wii software only runnable in a Wii emulator (such as Dolphin).
Understand that OoT64 is N64 software only runnable in an N64 emulator (such as Nintendo's Virtual Console or Mupen).
The B Stick working is an emulation glitch in both Mupen and the Virtual Console.
The difference is that the Virtual Console is the game that is being TASed, so to speak.
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If you want to convert Mupen into an N64 Virtual Console emulator (that is, a Virtual Console emulator, NOT AN N64 EMULATOR, that arbitrarily decides it'll only emulate Virtual Console games that were originally released for the N64), that's fine. If you get it accurate enough, you can even publish runs made with it. In fact, since Mupen is so far away from emulating the Virtual Console, you can even start with a different emulator. You could use Chankast or PCSX2. They, like Mupen, aren't in the least designed to emulate any Wii software. You could even start with COSMOS. It's a compiler, and it is about as well suited for emulating Virtual Console games as Mupen. I know, by now you probably think I'm just picking on you. But I'm trying to make sure you understand my point: Mupen is not a Virtual Console emulator. What you are suggesting is based on a faulty premise.
P.S. You noted that Speed Demos Archive doesn't count from start-up. Tough shit. This is TASVideos, and we count from startup, which is defined as whatever Dolphin gives you when you boot up the game.
TL;DR: You can't TAS VC OoT in Mupen. That's literally impossible. You have to TAS VC OoT in Dolphin. If you TAS VC OoT, you can do the glitch (because it is not a Dolphin emulation glitch). If you TAS OoT64 in Mupen, you can't (because it is a Mupen glitch). VC OoT and OoT64 are two different games, akin to Pokemon Red and Pokemon Blue.
Here's the thing, we all accept that the WW glitch with FW isn't possible to do on a N64, because it crashes the game. This argument isn't on the same level as what rom,language is used, or even artificial restrictons the run imposes on itself. If its not theoretically possible to reproduce the glitch on orginal hardware, assuming you were to program a bot to replicate the same inputs then it shouldn't be allowed, because that would make the run *fake* from my point of view. However, one method that could be used is to use the GC rom (the one that has the red button on B) and publish it as GCN movie and ignore the fact that the run was TASed on Mupen.
Here's the thing, we all accept that the WW glitch with FW isn't possible to do on a N64, because it crashes the game.
It's using deku stick as adult that crashes it, not WW. WW works fine on console. However, without being able to use deku stick, i believe the previous rba route was faster.
