Post by Lex

Posted: 3/29/2012 11:44 AM

Post subject: Decide the file extension of bizhawk movies here

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3599)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

First let me say, you people are nuts. Actually HATING a simple extension. So I dont agree, and this is wasting my important development time in my ideas. But, you win. I don't want to keep something people actually HATE to the point of wanting to throw insults. Of the alternative suggestions, the one I like the most is .movie (to go along with .state that is the extension of savestates). But before I change it, I want to know in advance if people are going to hate it and make topics. So here is your change to convince me of a better name change. Commence discussion.

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 3/29/2012 11:55 AM

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turska

Experienced player (759)

Joined: 6/17/2008
Posts: 146

I recommend .bmovie.

Posted: 3/29/2012 12:01 PM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

You just know people are gonna submit other hilarious three-letter extensions based on Hourglass's .wtf, so let's disregard those in advance. How about .bhk or bkm? Not that I think .tas is too bad. Little unspecific, but that's not such a big problem.

Posted: 3/29/2012 12:09 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4141)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

My vote is for .bkm (BizHawk Movie file). .bhm keeps making me think of the Bahamas rather than something else. Otherwise, .bmovie is good too. I think .movie is a bit too nonspecific though, which could cause confusion for other things.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 3/29/2012 12:17 PM

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scrimpeh

Editor, Skilled player (1405)

Joined: 3/31/2010
Posts: 2086

I'm still for keeping .tas, but if you really want it changed, I like .biz the most, simply because it makes it unique to the emulator name. Unless we're gonna change that too, but honestly.

Posted: 3/29/2012 2:07 PM

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ALAKTORN

He/Him

Player (99)

Joined: 10/19/2009
Posts: 2527
Location: Italy

Mothrayas wrote:

My vote is for .bkm (BizHawk Movie file).

^

Posted: 3/29/2012 2:09 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

I vote for .bkm .bmovie does sound like "B-movies", which belittles TASes. Also bmovie could as well be "bsnes movie", nothing tells it's Bizhawk movie. You can leave .tas for TAStudio project files, if you really want to use the extension somewhere.

Posted: 3/29/2012 2:37 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2012 3:12 PM)

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feos

Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)

Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11274
Location: RU

.biz is awesome! And .tas is awesome for a binary ~~taseditor~~ tastudio project WITH greenzone. I see no reason to leave tastudio projects in text format as you can splice in tastudio directly way more comfortably (after it is developed up to the point of 2.1.6's taseditor), and vice versa - working in notepad++ with a file with greenzone is insane. AnS, what do you think about removing currently optional text format (except for the header) from .fm3? Let it be kept by .fm2 only?

Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.

Posted: 3/29/2012 2:42 PM

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Dragonfangs

Active player (370)

Joined: 6/5/2006
Posts: 188
Location: Malmö, Sweden

I never really saw the problem with .tas, but whatever. .biz sounds fine too.

Even the best player is limited by the speed of his fingers, or his mind's ability to control them. But what happens when speed is not a factor, when theory becomes reality?

Posted: 3/29/2012 3:59 PM

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Lex

Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

.input .inputstream .playerinput .gameplay It's not really a "movie". It's just a stream of player input data.

Posted: 3/29/2012 4:16 PM

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RachelB

She/Her

Player (127)

Joined: 12/3/2011
Posts: 1579

.bkm and .movie are both good.

Posted: 3/29/2012 4:22 PM

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AnS

Emulator Coder, Experienced player (723)

Joined: 2/23/2006
Posts: 682

feos wrote:

AnS, what do you think about removing currently optional text format (except for the header) from .fm3? Let it be kept by .fm2 only?

I think this is offtopic. And fm3 is not a movie format, fm3 is just the principle of storing extra data at the end of any movie format, so it should not mess with host (movie) properties. Since fm2 supports both text and binary, fm3 naturally also supports both. If Bizhawk movie supports text only, TAStudio's gonna support text only. And so on.

Lex wrote:

.input .inputstream .playerinput .gameplay It's not really a "movie". It's just a stream of player input data.

Input log is only one part of the movie file (although the most important). There are subtitles, author comments, initial savestate and possibly some more movie-related data (like "chapters").

Posted: 3/29/2012 4:52 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1172)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

That was me hating it. Don't mean to cause harsh feelings, but I prefer honesty over keeping things gentle. I am thankful for the decision to change, however. Please tell me that the reasons I've given had also helped to swing the decision. I'd hate it if the only thing that did it was my hate, as then I'd hate myself for hating, and that, in turn, just works out in a stable loop. ... As for insults, I will never outright intentionally say them. That's no good for anything, really. I may have exaggerated on the insults part, but my strong dislike is still in there. But as for a new extension name... I think that these "movies" are more like replay files. It's not an actual media file like .mp4, so I think the term "replay" fits better. Still, "movie" isn't entirely inaccurate, as it is showing a sequence of actions like a movie, and is a more familiar term around here. So, my top suggestions (until someone comes up with something better): .bkm - Suggested before, and feels unique enough. .rbk - Replay, Bizhawk - Hopefully seems clear enough. .bkmr - Adding Replay on top of the previous bkm. Other thoughts that crossed my mind, but decided they don't sound right: .brf - Bizhawk Replay File - except this is too close to barf... .rfb - Replay File, Bizhawk - Actually, rf reminds me of radio frequency. .bkr - Bizhawk Replay. - Because we're bakers. .bzrp - Bizhawk Replay - Just something I burped out.

Posted: 3/29/2012 4:59 PM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

AnS wrote:

.bmovie does sound like "B-movies"

That's the point.

Posted: 3/29/2012 5:25 PM

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CoolKirby

Editor, Experienced player (608)

Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012

FatRatKnight wrote:

Please tell me that the reasons I've given had also helped to swing the decision. I'd hate it if the only thing that did it was my hate, as then I'd hate myself for hating, and that, in turn, just works out in a stable loop.

When adelikat mentioned some people hating the extension, I'm certain he was alluding to your post. You may have spurred him to start this topic, so good job.

FatRatKnight wrote:

.bkm - Suggested before, and feels unique enough.

I agree. I really like ".bkm", and definitely prefer it to ".tas".

Posted: 3/29/2012 7:20 PM

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zeromus

Editor, Emulator Coder

Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 1156

I've always thought the use of the term 'movie' here was really confusing. If folks are seriously bringing up the idea of calling them replays instead, then im all in favor.

Posted: 3/29/2012 7:26 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

Moderator, Expert player (4141)

Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4083
Location: The Netherlands

If "movie" is that much of a problem, then just replace it with "replay". My vote will be with ".bkr" (BizHawk Replay file) rather than ".bkm", then.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 3/29/2012 7:31 PM

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CoolKirby

Editor, Experienced player (608)

Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4012

Mothrayas wrote:

My vote will be with ".bkr" (BizHawk Replay file) rather than ".bkm", then.

I agree. .bkr is just as good as .bkm.

Posted: 3/29/2012 7:31 PM

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arukAdo

Experienced player (954)

Joined: 12/3/2008
Posts: 936
Location: Castle Keep

I agree "movies" is very misleading, replay sound more adequate. Also I hope you dont waste your time with this adelikat, its way beyond ridiculous, now well its yours of course so do as you want, but this sound so goofy... lol

Tasvideos.org personal page

Posted: 3/29/2012 7:38 PM

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Canar

Joined: 4/1/2010
Posts: 96

I quite like .biz, but it's rather unspecific. .bkr is the one that appeals most to me. I was never a huge fan of the .tas decision, but I was content with the colour of the proverbial bike shed. Nonetheless, it is reassuring to see you relent in the face of vocal opposition, adelikat.

Posted: 3/29/2012 8:41 PM

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Lex

Joined: 6/25/2007
Posts: 732
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

I'm in agreement that you should call it whatever you want, considering it's your project. I just hope what you want is something neutral and self-descriptive. Neutrality fosters popularity, after all. All in all, while this issue is clearly very minor and purely cosmetic, it's interesting.

Posted: 3/29/2012 9:26 PM
(Edited: 3/29/2012 10:03 PM)

Post subject: for future reference

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

You could actually dig a bit deeper with this. The main reason people who dislike ".tas" do so is because purportedly unassisted replays would look bad, misleading. or otherwise inappropriate with such an extension. However, I believe nobody who has opposed .tas so far is against having such extension for actual TASes. So what I propose instead is adding a checkbox to the movie recording dialog, "block tool-assistance" (or just "block tools"). If checked, it will write a file with a different extension and a different header, so that simple extension change or copypasting movie content wouldn't be enough to pass one type of replay as another. As per the actual effect, it will, as the name implies, block hotkeys and grey-out menu items for slowdown, savestates, pause button, frame advance, and possibly Lua scripts; i.e. tools that can be used to cheat. I didn't come up with this—it's pretty much identical to MAME's default behavior for replay recording. It won't be a bullet-proof anti-cheating measure, sure, but it will make it much harder to tamper with replays mid-recording, and will at least limit the cheating users of BizHawk to smart and extremely tech-savvy people, who would likely not partake in such activities anyway. This way people who claim their replays to be unassisted will enjoy additional credibility, and those who don't will have no problems using the normal .tas extension either. I could see an additional side-effect to this option being BizHawk's better popularity in communities dedicated to unassisted play, especially considering it's a multiplatform emulator. [EDIT] Some more clarification. MAME's input recording mechanism (and particularly its WolfMAME fork) has been established by various gaming communities to be a sufficient—not absolute or even highly authoritative!—anti-cheating measure because it makes it very hard to use tools such as the slowdown, and if any slowdown (like from a slow CPU) is used, it will be indicated and visible. WolfMAME doesn't claim itself to be an efficient anti-cheating measure, but its audience agrees on the benefits of making cheating harder. Because the harder you make it, the less worthy it will be to cheat in the first place, and thus the amount of potential cheaters shrinks from pretty much everyone to a very small group of people who understand precisely how to do it, can, and are willing to. As I noted in my bike lock analogy, something as simple as a bike lock divides people into two groups: those who carry bolt cutters with them, and everybody else. A simple measure like this doesn't eliminate the probability of theft, but still reduces it by orders of magnitude to acceptable levels. Compressing the non-.tas replay file can further help reducing cheaters' capability to tamper with it, as the easy input editing has no possible benefits outside of TASing.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 3/29/2012 9:41 PM

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Truncated

Editor, Reviewer, Experienced player (969)

Joined: 4/17/2004
Posts: 3107
Location: Sweden

As I said earlier, I don't mind the .tas extension. Feel free to keep it or change it to something else, if people prefer that.

Posted: 3/29/2012 9:55 PM

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Warepire

He/Him

Editor

Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2174
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

.biz is already an extension, but I cannot remember for what. .bhm is really inappropriate since BHM is used in the dating world to refer to overweight men (Big Handsome Male), may lead people to creepy places if they find a .bhm file. .tas for me is quite misleading as it gives absolutely no hint at all what program it could belong to. I place my vote for one of these: .bkr .bkm .bhr (BizHawk Replay)