Post by Slowking

Posted: 3/29/2012 10:02 PM

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Derakon

Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960

moozooh wrote:

So what I propose instead is adding a checkbox to the movie recording dialog, "block tool-assistance" (or just "block tools")...

All it takes is one guy who knows enough about programming to download the source code, comment out the "turn off tool-assistance" statement, and recompile and your extra legitimacy for non-assisted runs is damaged. Or a more tech-savvy person to figure out the change to the file format and convert an actual TAS to the "this file wasn't cheated I swear" format. I think it might actually be worse to pretend that such BizHawk runs are "legitimate" than it would be to recognize that there's no such thing as verifiable legitimacy in this area -- you'd build up an expectation that people aren't cheating, which would surely be subverted by some asshole at some point. Result: massive drama. I think that the idea of being able to turn off tool-assistance isn't bad; I know I've reflexively used savestates while playing games and thereby sucked the fun out of them, so being able to block them is a valid feature. But I wouldn't try to combine that with some kind of "non-cheated" file format.

Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.

Posted: 3/29/2012 10:20 PM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

Derakon wrote:

All it takes is one guy who knows enough about programming to download the source code, comment out the "turn off tool-assistance" statement, and recompile and your extra legitimacy for non-assisted runs is damaged. Or a more tech-savvy person to figure out the change to the file format and convert an actual TAS to the "this file wasn't cheated I swear" format. I think it might actually be worse to pretend that such BizHawk runs are "legitimate" than it would be to recognize that there's no such thing as verifiable legitimacy in this area -- you'd build up an expectation that people aren't cheating, which would surely be subverted by some asshole at some point. Result: massive drama.

I've edited my post above, so you might want to revisit it. First of all, claiming legitimacy never was my intention; however, it is logically deduced that something that is harder to tamper with is less likely to be a fraud. There is no contradiction or a leap of logic with it. Even simple anti-idiot measures you pile up on this can significantly reduce the probability. The one guy in your example is one guy who has the expertise to find the needed portion of the code, commenting it out and compiling the emulator; and even then he can fail by not concealing his cheating well enough. The more knowledge and effort is required to cheat, the less worthwhile it becomes. There are replay collections that, despite scrutiny associated with them, technically allow for an insignificant amount of cheating: SDA with its verification system, MARP with its moderators and confirmation system, Royalflare, and so on. All of these are self-regulating communities that assume good faith in their contributors, having no way to tell with 100% confidence whether somebody has cheated. But none of them are deemed untrustworthy because of it, and none of them have failed in their mission either. I find this fact telling.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 3/29/2012 10:23 PM

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zeromus

Editor, Emulator Coder

Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 1156

If anyone ever adds some kind of 'cheat prevention' measures into bizhawk, i will circumvent said measures in a custom build and post it somewhere myself. This will be because the challenge will be irresistable, and additionally, it is a courtesy to the cheaters' guild which we are insulting by wasting their time; and because the cruft accrual from ever-escalating levels of halfassery will make me really angry. Or you could just make WolfHawk. And now for my vote: .bhr

Posted: 3/29/2012 11:22 PM

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jlun2

Skilled player (1708)

Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4952
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"

.bh (BizHawk) .hwk (Shortening of "Hawk") .bz (BizHawk) .tar (Tool-Assisted Replay) .tam (Tool-Assisted Movie) .bf (BizHawk File) .tag (b]T[/b]ool-Assisted Gameplay) .bgm (BizHawk Generated Movie) .bar (BizHawk Assisted Replay) .gr (Game Replay)

LLCoolDave wrote:

This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.

Posted: 3/30/2012 12:09 AM

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moozooh

Senior Moderator

Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5770
Location: Away

jlun2 wrote:

.bz (BizHawk) .tar (Tool-Assisted Replay)

Very bad ideas! Those extensions are commonly used for archives, mostly on Unix-like systems though.

jlun2 wrote:

.hwk (Shortening of "Hawk")

This one, on the other hand, is really good.

Warp wrote:

Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.

Posted: 3/30/2012 3:15 AM

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Dada

Joined: 11/22/2004
Posts: 1468
Location: Rotterdam, The Netherlands

Warepire wrote:

.biz is already an extension, but I cannot remember for what.

It's a top-level domain (like .com, .net, etc.)

Posted: 3/30/2012 6:00 AM

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mmbossman

Experienced player (822)

Joined: 11/18/2006
Posts: 2426
Location: Back where I belong

Aww it's good to see that ridiculous arguments are still alive and well on the site. My vote goes to .pfe (Phil's Fresh Eggs) Followed closely by .jxq And the Bronze goes to .bimmy That is all.

Living Well Is The Best Revenge My Personal Page

Posted: 3/30/2012 1:59 PM

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NitroGenesis

He/Him

Editor, Experienced player (551)

Joined: 12/24/2009
Posts: 1873

You cant have .pfe without .bacon. Change the extension of vba at once.

YoungJ1997lol wrote:

Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.

Posted: 3/30/2012 2:42 PM

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Nach

Emulator Coder

Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers

jlun2 wrote:

.bh (BizHawk) .hwk (Shortening of "Hawk") .bz (BizHawk) .bf (BizHawk File)

These and ".biz": It's great to know what program it's associated with, but what exactly is it?

jlun2 wrote:

.tar (Tool-Assisted Replay) .tam (Tool-Assisted Movie) .tag (b]T[/b]ool-Assisted Gameplay) .gr (Game Replay)

This is close to the problem with ".tas".

jlun2 wrote:

.bgm (BizHawk Generated Movie)

BackGround music?

jlun2 wrote:

.bar (BizHawk Assisted Replay)

This is the only one you suggested that doesn't carry the other flaws. If we were to pull a page out of most emulators, the final letters should be "mv". To associate it with Bizhawk, it would begin with a "b", and perhaps have another letter. These would give us: bhmv bzmv bkmv bmv fits the pattern too of course, but perhaps you want to be more descriptive.

Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.

Posted: 3/30/2012 2:49 PM

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Brandon

He/Him

Editor, Player (190)

Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 913
Location: Tennessee

.biz is bad because it's a TLD (http://www.brandonevans.biz). I'd be OK with changing the terminology from movies to replays, but we can't do this halfway; either call them replays EVERYWHERE in BizHawk or don't. This would require the modification of a lot of dialog, which I'm totally OK with, but understand what we're getting ourselves into. It would also probably mean that TASVideos should reflect this new terminology, another thing I'm not sure the staff would be willing to do. If they are, I'll support it. A separate decision we have to make before we go about renaming the filetype is whether or not the text and binary movie files should have different types or not. Although I can't possibly claim that the primary motivation of that topic wasn't getting .tas out of BizHawk, I still think it's probably a good idea to use different filetypes. If you all agree, what do we do? Should we just append "t" or "b" to the end of whatever extension we decide to use? Should we append to one and not the other or both? Which one? FatRatKnight, you are my hero for putting the last nail in the coffin of .tas, an extension I've been protesting since the very first commit I made for BizHawk (Last May), but I'm not sure I agree with your third point. I don't think it's a secret that adelikat wants this to be highly integrated with TASVideos, him telling me that he wants TASVideos.org to be its home (See its main Wiki). I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing, as yes, this is primarily written for TASVideos. However, we shouldn't actively cater to TASers for things that don't only apply to TAS. This is what .tas did, and it would certainly alienate me if I weren't a TASer (Even still, I'd be hesitant to use it to record unassisted test runs). As such, I'm glad to see it go. Thanks adelikat for being open minded and listening to our concerns, no matter how ridiculously trivial they might be. Don't ever listen to someone telling you that you should rename the emulator, though, no matter how connected it might be to a spammy service.

All the best, Brandon Evans

Posted: 3/30/2012 4:41 PM

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zeromus

Editor, Emulator Coder

Joined: 8/7/2008
Posts: 1156

BrandonE's infinite variations on his loathing for .tas are always a delight to read. I hope after the issue is closed he'll still keep posting them, as I would hate to say goodbye to his semiweekly performances.

Posted: 3/30/2012 5:59 PM

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Brandon

He/Him

Editor, Player (190)

Joined: 11/21/2010
Posts: 913
Location: Tennessee

Love you too, zeromus. ;)

All the best, Brandon Evans

Posted: 3/30/2012 6:00 PM

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AngerFist

Active player (433)

Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Whatever the devs decide, I am fine with it. With all due respect but we have so much more important issues to discuss than this.

Nitrogenesis wrote:

Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!

Arc wrote:

I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.

natt wrote:

I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it

Cooljay wrote:

Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P

Posted: 3/30/2012 6:02 PM

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Guga

He/Him

Joined: 1/17/2012
Posts: 838
Location: Chile

AngerFist wrote:

Whatever the devs decide, I am fine with it. With all due respect but we have so much more important issues to discuss than this.

^ I agree with this.

Posted: 3/30/2012 6:32 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1638)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

mmbossman wrote:

My vote goes to .pfe (Phil's Fresh Eggs).

Dear god, this is genius. We just need to rename the site to be PFEvideos.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 3/30/2012 6:59 PM

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DarkKobold

Skilled player (1638)

Joined: 11/15/2004
Posts: 2202
Location: Killjoy

mmbossman wrote:

My vote goes to .pfe (Phil's Fresh Eggs).

Dear god, this is genius. We just need to rename the site to be PFEvideos.

Sage advice from a friend of Jim: So put your tinfoil hat back in the closet, open your eyes to the truth, and realize that the government is in fact causing austismal cancer with it's 9/11 fluoride vaccinations of your water supply.

Posted: 3/30/2012 7:43 PM

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adelikat

He/Him

Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3600)

Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4739
Location: Tennessee

Looks like the most consistent suggestion seems to be .bkm

It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects

Posted: 3/30/2012 8:04 PM

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creaothceann

He/Him

Editor

Joined: 4/7/2005
Posts: 1874
Location: Germany

adelikat wrote:

you people are nuts. Actually HATING a simple extension.

It's just wrong.

adelikat wrote:

this is wasting my important time

*eyeroll*

adelikat wrote:

Of the alternative suggestions, the one I like the most is .movie (to go along with .state that is the extension of savestates).

If every emulator did that, it would be chaos. Why is .movie "owned" by a single one? It's like Pixar saying that any computer generated unicycle is owned by them.

turska wrote:

.bmovie

I'm with AnS - sounds like "B-movies" and too similar to "bsnes".

Dada wrote:

Not that I think .tas is too bad.

Not every input sequence recording is a tool-assisted speedrun.

arukAdo wrote:

it's way beyond ridiculous

mmbossman wrote:

Aww it's good to see that ridiculous arguments are still alive and well on the site.

AngerFist wrote:

we have so much more important issues to discuss than this.

There's no reason to comment if you don't care, right? Anyway, my vote is for .bhm (or .bhr if they're going to be called replays, or .bkm/.bkr if .bhm is too weird).

Posted: 3/31/2012 5:09 AM

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