Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Dessyreqt wrote:
http://pastebin.com/D9rUJaws That's a list of the routes I ended up permuting. "fastest without springball" is the racing route I use nowadays because springball glitch is not a good race strat. Obviously inapplicable in a TAS setting. "my route" is the old racing route that I used to use and that some of the racers on SRL still use. It's basically the "m2k2 route" but without springball glitch. The score is the value in frames of the tested parts. The route tree is listed at the bottom. Here's the list for ingame time for those wondering: http://pastebin.com/9P1Lg4Ft Anyway, it does seem that going down blue and up green is faster than the reverse. I've still yet to be able to quantify why exactly that is, but I've observed distinct improvements in my times, both realtime and ingame time, by switching the order of those two around. I agree that the result is counterintuitive, but my testing indicates that having springball, screw attack, and space jump for blue speeds it up less than it does speed up pink and the etecoon area.
Could you describe, in layman terms, the methodology of how you calculated these routes? For TASing purposes, what route would you recommend for any% and 100% runs?
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
To start off, I had a 100% file that I used space/time on so I could go wherever I needed to in order to setup recording. Then I'd go to the room before the segment I needed to record starts and change my equipment to match the point in the run that I'm measuring the rooms for. As an example, if I were doing blue Brinstar going up on the way to Wrecked Ship, I'd have enabled Charge, Wave, Spazer, Varia, Speed, High Jumps, Morph Ball, Bombs. In this case I'd probably leave Ice off, as it doesn't speed up anything and you may not have it at that point in the run. However, if I were doing blue Brinstar after having cleared lower Norfair, I'd just enable everything. I have a lua script that I originally developed to help me practice for SGDQ last year. Basically, the script will automatically save state at the beginning of a room, and then when I reach the end of the room, if this is the best iteration of the room measured so far, save a new state. Then load the state from the beginning of the room, output the best time and last time using both realtime and ingame frames. Only realtime frames are used for comparisons. When I'm done with a room, I can press a button and the script will load the state from the end of the best run through the room. Starting with just before the first room of the segment, I'll record the segment I need at 75% speed using the script I just described. The 75% does two things: one, it negates the input lag that I sometimes will notice while playing, and two, it accounts for certain deficiencies I may have as a player. For example, when I started the project I used to have a fairly slow walljump, but I've improved my speed since then. I record the whole room with the script, no savestates during the room. I use entire room increments because that makes it easy to measure, and easy to record. However, this is not a perfect method, as Reeve's recent investigation into the WS missile showed me. That said, I feel quite confident with the rest of my data, and the results generated. After I finish one room, I'll keep going into the next and so on until my desired segment is done. If I recognize that I'm about to do a room that I've already done in another movie with the same relevant equipment (a good example would be the power bomb area in pink brinstar; as long as I don't have spring ball, nothing changes about how I do that room,) I'll just reuse the room time from that previous movie. I have a spreadsheet which I use to keep track of all of the times per room. There is a realtime sheet and a gametime sheet. Room times that are reused are formulas that link to other cells and are marked blue so that I know which ones I don't need to reupdate if something changes. Certain segment times will change depending on where you come and where you go. As an example, all J segments will depend on if you still need to do the gauntlet or not. Thus if you've already done the gauntlet, J1 has a value of 11903, but if you haven't, it has a value of 11811. It is important to note that these values are practically meaningless on their own; it is only within the context of an entire route are the values actually meaningful. Anyway, after I did that for all the possibilities that I thought were worth exploring (My route tree is listed at the bottom of that link) I used a computer program to create valid routes from all the segments (only routes that actually got 100% and didn't, for example, visit green Brinstar twice, were looked at,) assign the proper value to each node based on the other nodes in the route, then sum it up, then append the route to a text file. I then used a text editor to sort the data, because I'm too lazy to store all routes in memory and sort them before outputting. What I linked was the raw output of the program, with my route tree at the bottom. I'm not a SM TASer; I enjoy watching the runs, and I enjoy creating theory TASes using console-type skills, but I only use TAS tools to slightly enhance my own capabilities and remove errors from my output. I'm not really interested in creating a "full TAS" of SM. So take the rest of this post with a grain of salt. For any%, the focus of the run is defeating the four bosses, and Phantoon->Ridley->Kraid->Draygon seems the most efficient route, grabbing whatever you need on the way to each boss, assuming you could find a way to pull it off with the items provided. Grabbing the Hi-Jump energy tank (and not Hi-Jump itself) would be a few seconds slower than grabbing Kraid's, but it may be something worth looking into if Kraid can be done a few seconds faster with Speed Booster. Like I said, I'm not the expert here. For 100%, I'd be even more lost. The only thing I could possibly suggest with any degree of seriousness is what Reeve just suggested: do blue Brinstar on the way down from Wrecked Ship, and do green Brinstar before going to Tourian. You wouldn't have charge until the end of the run, but the only things that appears to change are the Botwoon and Ridley fights; neither change is major. I'd think the gauntlet would be fine to place after Wrecked Ship, since a TAS can just short charge a spark into it, whereas a console runner needs to rely on having Plasma for the topside wraparound. I don't know for sure that switching blue and green is faster for TAS purposes, but it's worked really well for me on my console runs. Anyway, hope that answers your questions.
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
Thank you for the detailed explanation. It was really informative. It seems like an incredibly sound method for finding the best route for speed runners. For a 100% TAS - My main issue with doing blue brinstar after WS, is that the super missile in the old tourian escape shaft is horribly out of the way when heading south. It requires dropping to the bottom of the shaft, going back up the shaft to get the super missile, and then falling back down the shaft to go to blue brinstar. I guess I may need to look into it further, but on the surface it seems slower. BTW, I enjoyed watching your any% route guide on your youtube channel. It would be incredible to see a human run getting a 28 minute final time.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
I know what you mean, and that was my initial trepidation with going that route, but when you think about it, you're only really adding 2 falls down the shaft, which is a few seconds a piece. I think some of the extra tricks you can do in pink could outweigh that time, but it should really be tested to find out for sure.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
By the way, if you do end up going through pink Brinstar last, be careful: Link to video
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
I think that was because of the Plasma Beam actually. It looked like it hit the gate numerous times causing the game to glitch. Anyway this thread has been very quiet. I can't wait to see this 100% run once its finished. Also I'm not sure if this is faster but, i think it would be as far as in game time is concerned. If it is it probably slower realtime and I sure it might have been tested as well that is probably why it wasn't used but, just in case if it wasn't I'll explain. On the way to the WS before the Lake Missile. Instead of Super Short Charging right away would it be faster it run lay the PB earlier and Super Short Charge the opposite direction turn and run and jump through as the Power Bomb is opening the door instead of waiting for it to open?
My name is Forensics.
Joined: 10/2/2006
Posts: 52
Actually the graphical glitch happens when samus enters a doorway transition with the door not properly on the edge of the screen. everything then gets offset. by however many tiles there are between the door tile and the edge of the screen.
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Joined: 9/13/2010
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Location: Tallahassee, FL
I have nothing to contribute except omg, you all are amazing. Just wanted to express my support. The new stuff that I see for this game is just amazing. Thanks for all the work that is being put into this game.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
Saturn posted this yesterday: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3THRhCgCO4 It's a 1:24 improvement over the current RBO TAS, most notably from the exclusion of the grapple beam. The escape from Draygon is quite clever. Will he submit it? Let's hope. EDIT: Turns out he did, my RSS reader just didn't show it to me. Hooray!
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
Posts: 1058
Location: United States
With the advent of Saturn's new rbo tas, I got a crazy idea. After seeing the way Saturn handled maridia without the gravity suit, it really got me thinking. Couldn't the any% run simply play maridia without the gravity suit too? Since it wouldn't be an rbo run, we could kill Kraid first and get the varia, which would make LN a breeze and eliminate the brinstar cleanup normally seen in the rbo runs. After taking out Ridley, go up through Maridia saturn style and take out draygon. Get the plasma beam and backdoor it to phantoon. I timed the differences in Maridia graviysuitless vs with gravity suit, and the total realtime difference is 2:25. Timesavers to note are: 1. That we would no longer need to get the gravity suit, which eliminates a huge cutscene. WS in general would be completely abridged because of this. 2. It would eliminate 2 elevator transitions by doing WS last. 3. It would allow us to use the no suit trick on mother brain. Getting 6 etanks wouldn't require much time loss. Kraid, Ridley, HighJump, Purple Crateria, and Maridia sand room, are 5 very easy to obtain etanks. The 6th would probably be blue brinstar early etank. 4. The maridia backtrack from plasma to red brinstar is removed. Time losses: 1. We would lose time getting the pink brinstar super missiles early vs getting the WS super missiles. 2. Obviously lose much time in maridia. 3. Slower kraid area
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 7/2/2007
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How much time does the no-suit trick save? The time saved by using it vs. the time lost by collecting extra E-tanks is sort of its own separate thing, right? I mean, even with the existing any% ordering you have the same potential tradeoff. Suitless Maridia in the any% would be awesome, though. I hope it pays off. So the boss order would be Kraid -> Ridley -> Draygon -> Phantoon?
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 10/1/2007
Posts: 52
That TAS was just incredible. I can't remember the last time i'd been so entertained by a TAS. Both the Ridley and Draygon fight made my jaw drop. (Also, the beginning of the Draygon fight was just badass. Look at that wave combo manipulation!)
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 454
Location: New York, US
Interesting idea for Any% route Hero!!! I was thinking that the most logical E-Tank would be in Lower Norfair in the fire spitter/firer flies room. That is the only one i can think of that would be on route and not out too out of the way. Its an interesting idea though. The only thing is you have to still backtrack to Power Bombs so it might not be worth it because you can just take the Wrecked Ship down along with it. Plus Super Missiles might be an issue as well. It seems logical enough in TAS conditions though. So the route would be normal until the Power Bombs down to Kraid get the E_tank then go to Upper Norfair pick up High Jump, Speed Booster and Wave. Go to Lower Norfair pick up Power Bombs beat Ridley and pick up both E-Tanks. Get Ice before Exiting Norfair enter Maridia and kill Draygon get Plasma Beam and enter The Wrecked Ship through the back. Kill Phantoon and Finish the game. Or instead of Lower Norfair E-Tank you could do the Blue Brinstar one but, I think that would be slower then the Lower Norfair one.
My name is Forensics.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
Along the lines of what Derakon said, since Gravity doesn't provide any reduction vs. Mother Brain's Hyper Beam, maybe it's not worth it to get 3 more tanks just to do the standup glitch. After all, it's not worth it in the current any% TAS, right? AFAIK standup only saves about 15 seconds of realtime, and you're talking about adding 21 seconds of itembox time just to do it, let alone travel time, etc. I would guess that the best tanks to get would be the obvious Crateria one, Kraid's, and Botwoon's. If you don't need Kraid's for extra energy on the way to Ridley, then Ridley's would be better.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Which obvious Crateria E-tank? There's two. :) One in the room with the second missile pack in the game, straight east from morphball; one in the sloped room en route to Brinstar. Granted the first isn't quite on the route, but it's pretty dang close; I'm practically certain it'd be faster than Botwoon's if you don't have Gravity.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Senior Moderator
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The second missile tank is in Blue Brinstar, not Crateria. It's easy to confuse them because music is the same there. :)
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
BigBoct
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I think the only spot on the way to Ridley this route would need "extra energy" would be the lava lake before the Lower Norfair elevator; if that can be managed with three tanks and the Varia Suit, then that's all you need from a speed perspective. From an entertainment perspective, however, I would say to go for the extra tanks and do the stand-up glitch because I love that glitch.
Previous Name: boct1584
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
The lava dive can be done with Varia and two tanks on console, but high jump is required. Since it's required for this route, I would suggest getting the High Jump tank over Kraid's or Ridley's. EDIT: unless there's a TAS way of breaking into LN without both gravity and hi-jump!
Joined: 7/2/2007
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moozooh wrote:
The second missile tank is in Blue Brinstar, not Crateria. It's easy to confuse them because music is the same there. :)
D'oh! You're right, of course. Dessyreqt: Whatever the TAS does, it will need 3 tanks at bare minimum since you have to get hit by Hyper Beam once, so Kraid's/Ridley's tanks are still valid options (in addition to Hi-Jump and the Crateria tank). I think the Blue Brinstar tank is out though since it'd be strictly slower than either; the extra energy would need to allow a lot more timesaving to make up for the detour and lost missiles.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 11/16/2009
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Derakon: what you said is obvious to me. I'm saying that the ETs gotten should be the Crateria tank that's not in the gauntlet, Botwoon's tank, and one of (Hi-Jump, Ridley's, Kraid's) with that order of preference since Hi-Jump seems to be required. However, if it turns out that Hi-Jump is not required, then it should be the Crateria tank that's not in the gauntlet, Botwoon's tank, and one of (Ridley's, Kraid's) At no point did I suggest the blue Brinstar tank, by "obvious Crateria tank" I meant the one that's not located in the gauntlet, since as you said, there are two Crateria tanks. However, it wasn't until after I realized that hi-jump would probably be required for this route that I even considered the Hi-Jump tank as an option. Since Saturn ended up grabbing the High-Jump boots in his GT code TAS, I suspect there isn't a known method for doing the lava dive while missing both gravity and hi-jump.
Joined: 7/2/2007
Posts: 3960
Sorry, I thought you were suggesting leaving out the third tank altogether. I was the one who mentioned the Blue Brinstar tank; in hindsight that wasn't terribly bright of me. I certainly didn't mean to accuse you of suggesting it. Looking at the map to refresh my memory (it's been ages since I played the game unhacked), Botwoon's tank is practically necessary since you need Gravity + Speedbooster to get through the lower route. And it looks likely that you'd need hi-jump to reach the path that Botwoon's tank is on. I think that pretty well settles it.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
Joined: 11/26/2010
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Having Hi-Jump would be obvious to enter Lower Norfair without Gravity Suit. The E-Tanks would go as followed if your doing Any% without Gravity Suit. Crateria>Kraid>Hi-Jump>Ridley>Fire Flies>Botwoon or Crateria>Kraid>Hi-Jump>Fire Flies>Ridley>Botwoon
My name is Forensics.
Joined: 11/16/2009
Posts: 68
In order to do standup, you need at least 7 tanks, not 6. Also, since you have Varia, you only need 3 to survive Mother Brain. Collecting 4 extra tanks would cost more time in black boxes alone than standup glitch saves, never mind the additional pause you'd have to throw in to take off Varia. I don't see why you want to collect 6 tanks.
Player (89)
Joined: 11/14/2005
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That's a good point about only needing 3 tanks to survive mother brain. I forgot that the gravity suit doesn't actually provide any additional protection against her beam. In that case, the only other benefit of getting the extra tanks would be to allow more damage boost and shinesparks from maridia towards ws.
They're off to find the hero of the day...
Joined: 11/26/2010
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That's right you need 7 E-Tanks. I guess the fastest one would be Blue Brinstar after the first Missile Pack. I doubt the route would be faster thinking about it now because you have to go out of your way for E-Tanks.
My name is Forensics.