Phil, just a couple of things that I wanted to point out.
With the Merchant you have, if you can get huge cash money, (from manipulating treasure spots on the map to get the most expensive items to sell) you would be able to afford a ton of Joker tarots (which you can easily manipulate to whatever you need.
You can also use the extra cash to use those Merchants and up your princess/wizards int.
I know it seems like the pay off is not there, as this will take many frames of effort for seemingly nothing, but it will make each and every fight go much faster.
If you think that increasing the int on the wizards won't be effective until they hit mage/sorceror I can understand that, but as is, if your Princess had higher Int I can see a couple of fights that already went an extra hit that she could have prevented.
Just some food for thought.
Time attacking the first few levels for the best time does not ensure you will achieve the best time for the entire game.
The choices you make in the early game are going to influence your time in each battle until you finish the game.
Please post more as you make it! I love watching :D
I think the party you chose is optimal, and it should be able to go all the way just fine. Getting special characters just doesn't seem worth it. One thing to consider though, is that there isn't really much advantage to hit-all magic over targeted since you're only going to be attacking bosses. Letting the gryphon get hits in and preventing enemy subordinates from wasting time hitting you are the exceptions. This opens up the possibility of using base wizards (same stat gains) or guys with Iainuki. Although the slight advantages most likely more than make up the difference.
I think that either Jokers or Int potions should be bought, but they shouldn't be used in conjunction. This is because the benefit of one is mutually exclusive with the other, and it would be a waste. I'm leaning towards Jokers, but this is partially because I don't know how the money would work out for quick Int potions. Just make sure to not actually kill anybody with the tarot cards, so the Opinion Leader doesn't leech away XP.
BacardiNCola wrote:
If you think that increasing the int on the wizards won't be effective until they hit mage/sorceror I can understand that
I don't see why that would matter. Care to explain this? And also, wizards get one more hit than mages. I'm not sure you would really want this intermediate upgrade, unless the extra hit ends up not mattering.
I don't see why that would matter. Care to explain this? And also, wizards get one more hit than mages. I'm not sure you would really want this intermediate upgrade, unless the extra hit ends up not mattering.
This is simple to explain Enhasa.
Perhaps you have not played Ogre Battle many times (if at all) or just forgot as we all do.
Wizards get 2 attacks that hit ONE unit per attack.
Mages get 1 attack that hits ALL units.
If the enemy has 5 units, that's 5 hits; and the MINIMUM number of Characters in units is 3, so Mages actually get more hits, and actually end up doing more aggregate damage than Wizards.
In addition, with the Princess leading the unit, each Character gets 1 more attack.
Wizards hence get 1 more hit, whereas Mages get 1 more attack that hits ALL the enemy units. As you can see, Mages are more effective than Wizards in terms of damage.
Next, the part about the int potions.
Buying Int potions takes time; going to the item menu and selecting the Int Potion and giving it to the Character takes time; doing this 50+ times takes a LONG time.
The question is, is it worth it to do this? Will it save enough time in encounters to be worth doing?
The answer EARLY on is definately NOT.
But later when you have 3x units that are hitting ALL the enemies, increasing their Int will speed up fights tremendously.
However will it be enough? I still guess NO, but that remains to be seen.
Hope that answered your question fully Enhasa.
Keep up the good work Phil, I hope you finish this instead of working on your FF2(or was it Mystic Quest?) run please please pretty please!
BacardiNCola, please re-read my first paragraph. I know that mages are obviously better in a normal game. But unless I remember wrong, boss fights are over when the leader dies, meaning units that can target the leader are just as effective. However, there are a couple of drawbacks, which I mentioned. So I concluded that mages/sorcerers are probably better, since I don't think using Fool cards is an optimal use of time. I realized afterwards that gaining more XP is the key factor, so I guess this is a non-issue. =p
About my earlier question, what I meant was, I understand increasing INT. What I didn't understand was why anybody would wait until getting mages/sorcerers to boost INT. When you class change, you keep the INT you gained. If you think that the INT potions would be better served on a princess, I understand, but that doesn't mean that boosting wizards would be pointless. Hope I explained it better.
Oh, and Phil's other RPG run is FF2, but in that thread, he mentioned that he was having some emulator difficulties.
Well here, I got some difficulties to obtain the good random to obtain those items. Though, I think I will continue this run tomorrow and test in Lake Janenia if there's a better randomness. I would have preferred Pogrom Forest because enemies do have higher levels + ghost that boost CHA and ALI of my main troop.
BacardiNCola, please re-read my first paragraph. I know that mages are obviously better in a normal game. But unless I remember wrong, boss fights are over when the leader dies, meaning units that can target the leader are just as effective. However, there are a couple of drawbacks, which I mentioned. So I concluded that mages/sorcerers are probably better, since I don't think using Fool cards is an optimal use of time. I realized afterwards that gaining more XP is the key factor, so I guess this is a non-issue. =p
The answer is pretty obvious I would think, and I did answer it. Mages/Sorcerors do more aggregate damage.
The highsky unit will be fighting both regular units and the boss unit; hence it wants the most damage possible in a high-sky unit, and that unit is the griffon/wyvern, princess , 2 liches (or mages/sorcerors's).
As you also say, XP gain is a key factor, and Fool cards are not not necessary if you can kill the leader with 3x all attack magics.
Although, since Animation turns ON for boss fights automatically it might be better to only have Mages. THEN at boss fights you can swap them into wizards for the fight, thus making the casting animation time decrease slightly perhaps? Then you just change them back.
This would have to be tested to see if there is any actual frame gain from doing this, and with everything involved in it, I feel like it wouldn't be much time gained.
Enhasa wrote:
About my earlier question, what I meant was, I understand increasing INT. What I didn't understand was why anybody would wait until getting mages/sorcerers to boost INT. When you class change, you keep the INT you gained. If you think that the INT potions would be better served on a princess, I understand, but that doesn't mean that boosting wizards would be pointless. Hope I explained it better.
I think it's more a matter of resources.
You can only get so many Merchants/Trade Tickets to summon Anywhere Jack, and it uses them up, so you really only should buy potions once or so.
In addition, I have used potions get get character's stats up to the max of 255 (unsigned byte anyone?) in the physical categories, and 999hp.
This takes ALOT of time and MORE Goth. I had 3 billion Goth, so I figured why not.
So in the early game, you can see that buying heals is pretty important. Buying 32 or so of them might not be necesary, but I believe Phil buys so many because he doesn't want to waste time with another buying stop.
Same idea with the Wizards in the early game. You stop the game to only boost them a little bit.
Another reason I can see is that when they level their stats will increase anyways. Since this unit will be doing alot of leveling, it will have greatly increased stats already.
Also, you will notice that the stat boost does not increase your damage by THAT much. Yes, it's an increase, a considerable one, but will it save you another one attack on the enemy? In addition, you must consider the time spent summoning jack, buying the potions, and then using the potions on the character. Will the end output exceed that threshold? It remains to be seen.
Hope that all helps.
The highsky unit will be fighting both regular units and the boss unit
This is what I didn't catch. I thought all the stages after a certain point would just be, fly over to the boss and win.
BacardiNCola wrote:
As you also say, XP gain is a key factor, and Fool cards are not not necessary if you can kill the leader with 3x all attack magics.
The advantages of Fool would be allowing the gryphon to get all its hits in, and possibly saving some time from enemies not attacking you. But I already said Fool wouldn't be worth it.
I think you might have indirectly answered my question about not INT boosting wizards. Somewhere in between near the beginning when you would not have much money, and naer the end when you would not be able to put it to great effect, is a point which can be considered the optimal time to buy INT potions. I already knew that. The key is, you don't have an issue with boosting wizards who will later upgrade per se, it's just that at that optimal point, you would have mages/sorcerers by then. Which is why you were against boosting wizards. I think.
BacardiNCola wrote:
Another reason I can see is that when they level their stats will increase anyways. Since this unit will be doing alot of leveling, it will have greatly increased stats already.
Also, you will notice that the stat boost does not increase your damage by THAT much. Yes, it's an increase, a considerable one, but will it save you another one attack on the enemy? In addition, you must consider the time spent summoning jack, buying the potions, and then using the potions on the character. Will the end output exceed that threshold? It remains to be seen.
This is why I said I think buying Jokers, instead of buying INT potions, is the way to go. It also takes Phil a whole lot less money this way, meaning he doesn't have to waste any time creating other Low/High Sky units to find treasure.
If you know the first thing about my speedrunning philosophy, I am very minimalist. So I myself try to stress the fact that increasing stats, whether by items or levels, is generally overrated because the time it saves in battles does not equal the time it took to gain those stats. The only difference here from normal leveling, is that it does not suffer as greatly from the law of diminishing returns as much as needless leveling in other RPGs does.
The highsky unit will be fighting both regular units and the boss unit
This is what I didn't catch. I thought all the stages after a certain point would just be, fly over to the boss and win.
Well, that's simple. At some stages, the nemy is sending, as 1st unit, an high sky troop to the main base or your leader troop. If I avoid the creature, it will reach the base. I am not sure at precise frame movement if I can avoid that. So there's a high chance that I must fight it.
This is what I didn't catch. I thought all the stages after a certain point would just be, fly over to the boss and win.
As the levels get bigger, it gets harder to get to the boss fast enough, or to avoid all enemy units, as they will sometimes come straight for you. On several levels it is possible to get to the boss directly, but if you are trying to manipulate luck to get Undead Staves/Rings you have to fight some enemy units.
Enhasa wrote:
I think you might have indirectly answered my question about not INT boosting wizards. Somewhere in between near the beginning when you would not have much money, and naer the end when you would not be able to put it to great effect, is a point which can be considered the optimal time to buy INT potions. I already knew that. The key is, you don't have an issue with boosting wizards who will later upgrade per se, it's just that at that optimal point, you would have mages/sorcerers by then. Which is why you were against boosting wizards. I think.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I did say that, just not as obviously as you put it. Early on you simply don't have enough money to get enough potions to make it worth it in terms of damage/time saved. And as was also said, you'd have Mages/Sorcerors by the time you'd have enough money/the enemies were harder to make it worth it/able to do so.
Enhasa wrote:
This is why I said I think buying Jokers, instead of buying INT potions, is the way to go. It also takes Phil a whole lot less money this way, meaning he doesn't have to waste any time creating other Low/High Sky units to find treasure.
If you look at the earlier posts in the thread you can see my suggestion to buy mass Joker Tarots, but it is most likely not worth it. You lose time because of the full casting animation; if your unit were powerful enough (and we all know what unit that would be) you can kill the enemies so quickly it doesn't even matter, plus it costs nothing.
So is Death. Imagine fights that go like this: Magician, Starlite, Death. Fight over.
That's the kind of run I was originally expecting.
That's why I put down strategies to get more cash for more Jokers so you can manipulate Magician/Death over and over.
However, you have decided to go another route.
I feel that your route Phil, is great for a Speedrun, butPOSSIBLY not for a Time Attack.
I really want to start a speedrun trying out the all Joker tarot strategy, but I'd like a base video to start from, or rather, to see if my technique makes good time AT ALL.
It might proove that your run has a much better time, and that getting items to sell and getting Jokers, and using them to fight is a waste of time.
However, if my time is better for the last few levels, I would be certain that the Joker approach could be made faster through other opimizations I have in mind, but am waiting for a video to comment on their possible use.
Can we please see anymore work you've done Phil? I love this game so much, even watching one more level is worth it for me. Good luck sir! :D
Joined: 3/29/2005
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Death does no good for Phil's strategy, since Death steals exp from the fighting unit by manner of fact. Magician/Judgement, on the other hand, can bring the enemies down to minimal HP levels for a Mage/Sorcerer/Lich to finish off, thus handing the exp. to the party, who can then make even shorter work of subsequent battles which are not deemed dire enough to merit Tarot cards.
On the other hand, I can see definite merit to your strategy, especially if you wanted to involve the opinion leader's unit in some of the combat. (Since his unit deploys free and whatnot.) Though you'd have to keep in mind that Death never works on any soldiers in the boss units. (At least I think it doesn't. Maybe it's just at reduced effectiveness.)
Death does no good for Phil's strategy, since Death steals exp from the fighting unit by manner of fact. Magician/Judgement, on the other hand, can bring the enemies down to minimal HP levels for a Mage/Sorcerer/Lich to finish off, thus handing the exp. to the party, who can then make even shorter work of subsequent battles which are not deemed dire enough to merit Tarot cards.
On the other hand, I can see definite merit to your strategy, especially if you wanted to involve the opinion leader's unit in some of the combat. (Since his unit deploys free and whatnot.) Though you'd have to keep in mind that Death never works on any soldiers in the boss units. (At least I think it doesn't. Maybe it's just at reduced effectiveness.)
I am starting a run doing exactly this.
From my experience, you don't need more than 1 lich, as you have bonus attacks that you never fully utilize. You could then have:
Hero with Icefield, 1 wizard/Lich(Warren), Griffon/Wyrm in front, then another lich if possible but instead you could have a ninja(Lans) in front, with the griffon in the back.
Battles would go Griffon gale, hero icefield, and then death.
I would buy Int potions ASAP so that they deal just enough damage to reach half on the monsters, then finish with a death.
Gale seems to do physical damage, and the hero does ice damage.
Why Ice damage? Because MOST mobs are equally effected by it.
Phantom does physical damage so you have the caster/melee split, whereas as everything but say Ice giants take equal damage, and clerics take more.
The basic idea is to get 2-3 all attacks and then just pop off a Death.
With the Hero leveling so quickly, he might be able to get powerful enough to get his attack+1 more all attack to let Death go off faster.
I will manipulate tarots as much as possible.
The base guarding unit would be something like 2 fighters in front, 3 wizards in back with Leader strategy, just to finish the leader and get them retreating.
Could be an interesting run.
Well, you can try it and we'll see if it will be faster than mine or not in the end.
I wish you good luck with your strategy.
Edit: I am not saying that I think my strategy is the perfect one because I am sure it isn't . In fact, it is more a test run since I must evaluate the game first. Well, to know what kind of unit is really needed. I am prety sure 2 liches is more than enough but since Liches does have good stats, I think it will be an invincible unit. Anyway what is more cute that a Lich doing all these brutal magic attacks ;)
Here is a bit tricky game to do a TAS. It's combination of RTS and RPG.
I have no clue how long it is and are there any major glitches which will help but it could be interesting movie. I would be pleased if anyone could do a movie!
I always loved this game because a) it was fun and b) the title consisted of two Queen songs.
Ah, I didn't know about that. What are those titles?
They are suprise, suprise Ogre Battle and March of the Black Queen from Queen2 album.
There is also a sea in the game called Sea of Rhye which is taken from song named Seven seas of Rhye also from Queen2.
The Ogre Battle2 is called Let us cling together which is also a Queen song. The main programmer is a huge fan of Queen.
I posted this topic because I love Queen and today is Fredddie Mercurys deaths 14th anniversary
I wanted to make some tribute and I would be really happy if someone could do a movie of this game!!
I don't think anyone intends to do this game.
Someone was, but he hasn't posted any progress lately for the last 6 months or so. And it looks like nobody is interested in doing this, either.
'tis a pity, 'cause I would like to see a run of this game.
I always loved this game because a) it was fun and b) the title consisted of two Queen songs.
Ah, I didn't know about that. What are those titles?
They are suprise, suprise Ogre Battle and March of the Black Queen from Queen2 album.
There is also a sea in the game called Sea of Rhye which is taken from song named Seven seas of Rhye also from Queen2.
The Ogre Battle2 is called Let us cling together which is also a Queen song. The main programmer is a huge fan of Queen.
I posted this topic because I love Queen and today is Fredddie Mercurys deaths 14th anniversary
I wanted to make some tribute and I would be really happy if someone could do a movie of this game!!
I can see you are a Queen fan but not an Ogre Battle fan so much. ;)
The sea in Ogre Battle is called Rhyan Sea not Sea of Rhye. Ogre Battle 2 was never released. In fact Ogre Battle: The March of the Black Queen is the 5th in the series. What you called Ogre Battle2 aka Let us cling together is Tactics Ogre: Let us cling together and it is 7th in the series.
Sketchie wrote:
I don't think anyone intends to do this game.
Someone was, but he hasn't posted any progress lately for the last 6 months or so. And it looks like nobody is interested in doing this, either.
'tis a pity, 'cause I would like to see a run of this game.
The guy is me and I didn't work on this game for about 1 year. I will work on Snes game when Zsnes will be more stable. Zsnes is better than Snes9x.
