If you're going down that route, may as well just aim to display all the text in the game. (This would require playing on (U) so that it would be readable.)
If you're going down that route, may as well just aim to display all the text in the game. (This would require playing on (U) so that it would be readable.)
Okay, now I can't stop laughing...
no, but in all seriousness, to what extent should the dungeons be completed?
Just get the heart container and the medaillon/stone (so kill the boss) and that should be enough... Maybe the compass/map/boss key if people wants too, but really that's the limit.
Just find out what they did at SDA. At least we have a predetermined baseline and less bickering. I know for a fact that they've had this argument a few times already. And hey, it's always nice to have a consistent run comparison between sites.
No matter what is discussed here there's going to be people that are not happy with the definition. Seems easiest to me that the current definition (maybe with maps/compasses because several people in the zelda community have shown interest in this) should be used as it has worked fine and would serve as a comparison to console runs. Sure the current definition console runners use doesn't include a few things but the line has to be drawn somewhere. For example such mundane tasks as opening all chests and going in every room in dungeons to fill out the map could be included, but likely very few people would actually want to see that.
To expand on my point as well as cafde_'s...
Let's play devil's advocate and pretend we define 100% as something drastically different than what has been agreed upon as 100% by SDA or Zelda Speed Runs or #zeruda (I wonder if anyone would get that reference). Now you might start a debate at one of those sites... And we all know what happens when the proverbial shithits the fan.
Just find out what they did at SDA. At least we have a predetermined baseline and less bickering. I know for a fact that they've had this argument a few times already. And hey, it's always nice to have a consistent run comparison between sites.
We almost certainly will not use the same definition as ZSR does. We've even had one of the people who helped define the current rules that console runners use say that it would not be appropriate to do so.
Certainly we can build off of what they have come up with, but it wouldn't really make much sense to use their rules as is.
We almost certainly will not use the same definition as ZSR does. We've even had one of the people who helped define the current rules that console runners use say that it would not be appropriate to do so.
Certainly we can build off of what they have come up with, but it wouldn't really make much sense to use their rules as is.
Fine by me. I used to follow all of the OOT and MM threads in SDA forums, but then everyone moved to ZSR (or so I've been told)... I haven't even visited the site before. My point still stands: It's nice to have a baseline/comparison if something has done been done (or agreed upon) in the past. If SDA is the poster child for modeling a run, so be it :).
We almost certainly will not use the same definition as ZSR does. We've even had one of the people who helped define the current rules that console runners use say that it would not be appropriate to do so.
Certainly we can build off of what they have come up with, but it wouldn't really make much sense to use their rules as is.
Fine by me. I used to follow all of the OOT and MM threads in SDA forums, but then everyone moved to ZSR (or so I've been told)... I haven't even visited the site before. My point still stands: It's nice to have a baseline/comparison if something has done been done (or agreed upon) in the past. If SDA is the poster child for modeling a run, so be it :).
TASes aren't made to be compared to speedruns anyway, they're made to be entertaining, so Zelda TASers just need to figure out a 100% definition which would feet here, like MrGruntz's one.
And even if the final definition is about the same as the ZSR/SDA one, the run won't look the same at all.
To expand on my point as well as cafde_'s...
Let's play devil's advocate and pretend we define 100% as something drastically different than what has been agreed upon as 100% by SDA or Zelda Speed Runs or #zeruda (I wonder if anyone would get that reference). Now you might start a debate at one of those sites... And we all know what happens when the proverbial shithits the fan.
Dat last link:
What the fuck was wrong with those people back in 2006? :O
As r0bd0g mentioned, warping to the credits is not possible without RBA in the definition I posted of a 100% run.
Yet I'm still against banning RBA. It really couldn't be used for very much using the given definition, I don't even know if it would be worth it setting RBA up anyway.
If we force the runner to get Map/Compass/Boss Key, we could also allow RBAing some of them. Those items are used to RBA dungeon items:
Prescription-Great Deku Tree
Eyeball Frog-Dodongo's Cavern
Eyedrops-Jabu Jabu's Belly
Claim Check-Forest Temple
Fire Arrow-Fire Temple
Ice Arrow-Water Temple
Light Arrow-Spirit Temple
Using Bugs you you can get the Boss Key and Map. You'd still have to get the Boss Key in Ganon's Castle normally, so Warping to the credits might very well be slower anyway.
Allowing both RBA, while forcing the runner to get the dungeon stuff makes sense to us, but it will certainly not even make a bit of sense for the normal viewer. We'd suddenly get the Map in Shadow normally, but nowhere else etc.
If we want to avoid this, we either have to ban RBA or not force the runner to get this stuff. I'm definitely against banning any type of Glitch, so RBA should be allowed, the current definition restricts already a lot. Because of this, I'd prefer it to not include Maps/Compass/Boss Keys, although it would probably obsolete warping to the credits (for now), because of what I've written above.
Allowing both RBA, while forcing the runner to get the dungeon stuff makes sense to us, but it will certainly not even make a bit of sense for the normal viewer. We'd suddenly get the Map in Shadow normally, but nowhere else etc.
Can you explain this in further detail? If you have to get the dungeon items legit, why would only the shadow map be acquired?
Grunz, a lot of things won't make sense to the average viewer, without an explanation. That should not affect how we define the goal. The solution is to just explain things to them.
Is the boss key in Ganons Castle really needed, if all the other dungeon items are collected? Because that's the only one that doesn't appear on any screen.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Another thing i think should be considered is upgrade items which are later overwritten, such as goron bracelet, silver scale, etc. Real time runners skip these, but i'm not sure if that is really right. Of course this raises the question of whether we can sequence break the trading quest, or if we need to get each item at some point. Which i don't really want to require... I'm not sure what i think about this.
This can of worms is exactly why 100% should just be a maxed out menu.
MrGrunz wrote:
Let's try it a different way:
We travel back in time to the year 2005, when there were barely any glitches for this game. Now we should try find an appropriate way to define 100% on this base and nothing else. Even without paying attention to the entertainment value, simply find a way that makes sense in every way.
After this has been successfully done, have a look at all glitches again and try to see if it really makes sense to ban any of them, but for this you first need a perfect definition, which has to be based on more or less glitchless terms. The only reason we have to do this discussion right now is because nobody did a TAS of it back then and set the basic rules.
We have that definition. We had it for years. It's a maxed out menu. I don't see why TAS would have to do it differently.
andypanther wrote:
Epona can't be skipped, you need her for a heart piece and a quiver upgrade.
If we allow RBA and heart piece duplication, which I think we should, Epona could be skipped.
MrGrunz wrote:
Epona has to be obtained or else Epona's Song has no effect when you play it. It clearly changes what you've obtained and what you haven't.
Epona's can still produce milk.
MrGrunz wrote:
7) All Songs have to be learned the normal way during your speed run. In theory you could RBA Songs to save time, but you'd still have to learn them at some point in the game. This makes sense, because a Cutscene Trigger is gone after watching the cutscene.
Doesn't make any sense to me. We do not care what happens in the game with other things. For example magic beans. If you have to remove cutscene triggers, you have to plant all the beans to get 100%.
Again, it opens a whole can of worm if we require anything outside of the menu.
Heart piece duplication goes against the whole concept of a 100% for me, if you use it to fulfil the "100%" part of things. (I have no trouble with using it to get more maximum health, but the heart pieces are some of the most obvious optional objectives there are in Zelda games.)
Glitching the percent counter to 100 != getting 100%.
Even if we allow heart piece duplication, that raises the question, when is that considered maxed? Because i might have to argue that it's not until just before heart count overflows. If you really want to go that route, i guess i'd be ok with that...
Even if we allow heart piece duplication, that raises the question, when is that considered maxed? Because i might have to argue that it's not until just before heart count overflows. If you really want to go that route, i guess i'd be ok with that...
That is an interesting question. I would say it would be the max you can get in a normal playthrough, but I would be open to duplicate them into oblivion.
Many people here say "oh this should be in it and that should be in it, but that shouldn't". Again, if we go outside of maxing out the menu, we have a problem that things get completely arbitrary.
We have to remove cutscene triggers, but don't have to plant all the magic beans. Why?
We have to collect all the heart pieces legit, but not all the chests around. Why?
Maxing out the menu is a good, clear cut definition. I also think that we should be able to use RBA for it, but I guess that could be up for debate. Why heart piece duplication shouldn't be allowed is beyond me, though. Because at that point we are just arbitrarily picking and chosing what has to be removed from the game world.
... I don't know about heart duplication, that sounds like a fake 100%. I agree though that there aren't any reasons to get the heart pieces legit and to not open all the chests... But it would really just make the run feel incomplete for me. I would feel tricked, and not in an entertained way (if that means anything in English... you got the idea anyway I guess :p )
But this is an arbitrary part as you said, there will always be unhappy people...
The problem is MrGrunz's definition, that many people here seem to like, has more than 14 mostly arbitrary stipulations. They are randomly picked and don't make much sense, especially if you look at it with fresh eyes and unburden yourself of all the history of this game, which is what Grunz said to do a few pages ago.
14 stipulations is not a definition anymore, it's a convoluted mess. Sorry Grunz...
The definition I propose has exactly two stipulations and they are really clear cut:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
What is the fun in seeing the runner duplicate all possible heart pieces? That should be reason enough not to allow duplication.
Why do we have 100% in the first place if all it does is mimick the any% by just duplicating whatever stuff you need?
What is the fun in seeing the runner duplicate all possible heart pieces? That should be reason enough not to allow duplication.
Why do we have 100% in the first place if all it does is mimick the any% by just duplicating whatever stuff you need?
How is that in any way duplicating any%? It's still a totally different beast. Like I said before, RBAing medallions probably wouldn't be worth it.
So it would be closer to MST, but even compared to that you have to do a lot more. Again, you still have to get all the skulltullas.
I'm open to banning certain glitches for this category. Like heart piece duplication and RBA. Afterall, we did ban RBA for MST already.
Still the basic definition of the category should stay simple:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
Ofcourse banning RBA would completely remove the extremely fun bombchu insanity, but I don't see any other way, without getting totally arbitrary.
If you allow RBA you can use it to write shit to your inventory. If you don't want that, disallow it completely. Clear defintions people, that is all I'm asking here.
Still the basic definition of the category should stay simple:
- max out the menu without any corrupted items in there
- end the game
I agree, but I would change that to:
- Max out the menu by legally obtaining all items without any corrupted items in there.
- Finish the game.
But still, what does max out the menu mean? Only the stuff you can see at the end of the game (dungeons have their sub-menu, after all), and does that include the map?[/i]
- Max out the menu by legally obtaining all items without any corrupted items in there.
I still disagree with that one. Either you can write stuff to your menu or you can't. If you don't want it, ban the glitch that allows it. No weird arbitrary middle ground please.
But still, what does max out the menu mean? Only the stuff you can see at the end of the game (dungeons have their sub-menu, after all), and does that include the map?
Dungeon stuff shouldn't be included. It can only be seen in that particular dungeon. Thus it's obviously not important to the whole games state.
Again, if we go down that path we would have to open all the chests in dungeons and all that crap. That is a rabbit hole we don't want to go down, imo.
