Like my edit says your definition could also be seen as "only get the slot filled" doesn't matter what's in there.
No, it doesn't. It says collect all items that appear in the menu at all points in time. Because hookshot and longshot BOTH appear in the menu at some point of time, they should both be collected (though perhaps the definition may be a little vague and may need some rewording).
Also there is quite a bit of harm in doing unneccesary stuff, that no 100% run would ever do it. prolongs the run. Makes it seem worse than it is. If something is overwritten anywa<, you don't collect it.
I dunno. I disagree here. We are not going to have a perfect definition, so there must be some evil. Prolonging a run could be a GOOD thing, IMO. That's partially why we have 100% - to get more stuff, to see more cool tricks.
Also tbh, my last definition was more precise. Maybe a little bit more arbitrary, but I don't really think so...
What does max out really mean?
Honestly, if you reword it a little, it sounds almost like my first paragraph. Yours is very arbitrary and you are trying to dumb it down while mine is more precise.
Also, how does one "max out" bottles?
No, it doesn't. It says collect all items that appear in the menu at all points in time. Because hookshot and longshot BOTH appear in the menu at some point of time, they should both be collected (though perhaps the definition may be a little vague and may need some rewording).
Yeah, sorry nobody is going to do that.
What does max out really mean?
Honestly, if you reword it a little, it sounds almost like my first paragraph. Yours is very arbitrary and you are trying to dumb it down while mine is more precise.
Yours may be a little more precise, but nobody is going to go through all of that.
"Max out" should be pretty self evident. It means every item/upgrade in it's best form and all the skulltullas.
Also, how does one "max out" bottles?
The same as one maxes out bow, or hammer. You don't. The menu needs to get maxed out, not individual items. If items don't have a better form, the basic form is "max".
To make it 100% precise:
- have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form
- Have 20 hearts
- Have 100 Skulltullas
- end the game
- no item duplication
- No RBA except item amount RBA
That is as precise as it gets, covers everything and is way less text than your paragraphs.
But RachelB won't like it... because of... things
- At any point in time, if there is an item that can show up in the menu, then it shall be collected UNLESS:
-- It can later be replaced by an upgraded version. In that case, only the upgraded item need be collected.
- Item duplication and RBA are not allowed to acquire items.
- Collect all finite and persistent items and upgrades that affect the HUD.
An item is defined as something that shows up in the menu and sticks there. Similar items that can be acquired from enemies and chests later on after you've picked up the first of the item are considered refills, and thus are not required.
You still need to complete the trade quest to the the Biggoron's Sword unless you use RBA, which you aren't allowed according to the definition (or if we ban RBA altogether). Unless I'm mistaken?
What is better, an empty bottle or a filled bottle?
Which really brings up another point: what about bottles that aren't empty? Are they required to be collected? This isn't clear in your definition (nor mine). Yeah, I'll bet the answer is no, but a good rule or description for that would be...?
How about just
- Collect all items that show up in the menu at all points of time without the use of item duplication or RBA. An item is defined as something that shows up in the menu and sticks there. Similar items that can be acquired from enemies and chests later on after you've picked up the first of the item are considered refills, and thus are not required.
- Collect all finite and persistent items and upgrades that affect the HUD.
Two paragraphs. No maxing out. Unique items are covered.
(Now, start picking holes in those two paragraphs.)
So as long as something is obtained once, you don't care if it's later lost?
Screw this. Back to the drawing board :P
EDIT: The problem with the definition of persistent is that too many items can get lost during the game (and it probably won't matter) [think: bottles; can be replaced with different versions of the bottles].
To make it 100% precise:
- have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form
- Have 20 hearts
- Have 100 Skulltullas
- end the game
- no item duplication
- No RBA except item amount RBA
That is as precise as it gets, covers everything and is way less text than your paragraphs.
But RachelB won't like it... because of... things
I don't think we will ever come up with a perfect definition that we can all agree on.
However, other than the rba restriction, this seems to be identical to what i wanted anyway.
Basically I stopped caring if it's a little bit longer or not, as long as we can nail something precise down. :D Can we use that one as a work draft? For now? Do you want to add anything else?
Also that RBA-part is really arbitrary, but I don't care anymore.
I'm sure 20 other people, who will see this thread tomorrow, will want something completely different anyway. XD
To make it 100% precise:
- have every menu-item and upgrade (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form
- Have 20 hearts
- Have 100 Skulltullas
- end the game
- no item duplication
- No RBA except item amount RBA
That is as precise as it gets, covers everything and is way less text than your paragraphs.
But RachelB won't like it... because of... things
OK, I'm throwing my weight behind this, but just to make it a little more clearer (maybe?):
- Collect all heart containers and heart pieces.
- Collect all upgrades that are not shown in the menu.
- Collect all 100 Golden Skulltullas.
- Having each slot in the menu [including inside dungeons] filled with the best possible item that can fit inside that slot [that means collecting the best upgrades, too] when the game ends. If there is no best item, then any item will do.
- Item duplication glitch may not be used.
- No RBA to acquire not-yet collected items, but changing item amount is fine.
- Finish the game!
What about the cow and Epona?
Well we could change "end the game" to "reach the credits", just to be extra clear, otherwise i guess that's a good enough start. other than, again, the rba restriction.
- Collect all heart containers and heart pieces.
Is it your intention to require the 37th heart piece?
Well we could change "end the game" to "reach the credits", just to be extra clear, otherwise i guess that's a good enough start. other than, again, the rba restriction.
Yeah it's really arbitrary, but I don't care anymore. Too many people were bitching about the fact that you could write upgrades into the menu...
Is it your intention to require the 37th heart piece?
Don't know how many there are, exactly. But I mean, if there is a so-called 37th piece lying around somewhere in the game, then it should be collected, right? (Does not apply if it must be glitched somehow.)
If not, then make that 36.
EDIT: OK, I see it's in Gerudo Fortress as a kid. Then, yes, it should be included IMO. It should give some WTF moments, at least.
There's an extra heart piece in Gerudo's Fortress as a child, which of course is not normally possible to get to.
For what it's worth, i think we should get it. Even though it's not normally possible to get, it's there, and we can get it, so i see no reason not to.
I'm pretty sure I saw a video about an extra heart piece in Jaboo's belly and it was titled as the 39th heart piece. I think only the normal 36 ones should be gotten because it isn't a 101% run, it's a 100% run.
- Collect all heart containers and heart pieces.
- Collect all upgrades that are not shown in the menu.
- Collect all 100 Golden Skulltullas.
- Having each slot in the menu [including inside dungeons] filled with the best possible item that can fit inside that slot [that means collecting the best upgrades, too] when the game ends. If there is no best item, then any item will do.
- Item duplication glitch may not be used.
- No RBA to acquire not-yet collected items, but changing item amount is fine.
- Finish the game!
What about the cow and Epona?
- covered in 20 hearts and no duplication
- there are no upgrades that are not shown in the menu. magic bar and resist upgrade are also shown in the menu
- covered by having them and not being allowed to dupe or rba them
- also covered already
- yup
- mine was more precise, yours could be interpreted that heart piece rba is fine
What about the cow and Epona?
screw them
RachelB wrote:
Well we could change "end the game" to "reach the credits", just to be extra clear, otherwise i guess that's a good enough start. other than, again, the rba restriction.
I am totally fine with "reach the credits", although "reach 'the end' " might be more precise, since with some methods, you won't see the full credits...
I'm pretty sure I saw a video about an extra heart piece in Jaboo's belly and it was titled as the 39th heart piece. I think only the normal 36 ones should be gotten because it isn't a 101% run, it's a 100% run.
It's in a specific "cutscene" version of Jabu Jabu, which is impossible to move around in unless you use the GameShark or the Debug ROM.
I'm pretty sure I saw a video about an extra heart piece in Jaboo's belly and it was titled as the 39th heart piece. I think only the normal 36 ones should be gotten because it isn't a 101% run, it's a 100% run.
But do we really need a 100% and a 101% run? I think it would just be fine to merge those two. An extra heart piece of two doesn't hurt.
Slowking wrote:
- there are no upgrades that are not shown in the menu. magic bar and resist upgrade are also shown in the menu
I would technically define them as part of the HUD, which is why I separated the two. Doesn't really matter to me, though.
I just took your rules and made them a little clearer, at least to me. But in essence, we agree.
Slowking wrote:
- mine was more precise, yours could be interpreted that heart piece rba is fine
Can you even RBA heart pieces?
Eh, not that it matters. We already stated all heart pieces must be collected (we should probably define collected). Theoretically, you could collect all heart pieces, then RBA or duplicate heart pieces if you want. Not part of the goal, so it doesn't really do anything, but still legal, so to speak. Pointless, but probably legal.
There's an extra heart piece in Gerudo's Fortress as a child, which of course is not normally possible to get to.
For what it's worth, i think we should get it. Even though it's not normally possible to get, it's there, and we can get it, so i see no reason not to.
That seems to exceed 100% somewhat and gets again into "defining every little item seperately"-territory, again.
You need to get 20 hearts. If you use the gerudo heart piece is your thing, but then you should skip another one.
I would technically define them as part of the HUD, which is why I separated the two. Doesn't really matter to me, though.
I just took your rules and made them a little clearer, at least to me. But in essence, we agree.
Problem is HUD also includes B button and c-buttons and... well I wouldn't go there. Whole new can of worms.
So maybe:
- have every item and upgrade displayed on the menu-screen (outside and inside of dungeons) in it's best form
- Have 20 hearts
- Have 100 Skulltullas
- reach "the end"
- no item duplication
- No RBA except item amount RBA
Again I want to keep this as small as possible, while still being precise (guess I still care a little). I think it is that.
Can you even RBA heart pieces?
Yes you can RBA 1 heart piece and you can do it over and over again. (RBA one, collect 3, RBA one, collect 3 and so on)
What is the typical definition of 100% Collect all possible items intended to be collected by the game developers or collect all possible items possible within the game?
Questions I ask myself for 100%:
- Does the game track it?
- Is it irreversible once done?
- Is it done by non-repeating events?
- Does it give me more to do?
If yes to all, do it. Don't ask further questions. That is my philosophy, but many would say I'm closer to the extreme of leaving absolutely nothing undone. I'm certainly more on this extreme than what I observed everyone here is at.
Does the game track it?
Very obvious if the game's HUD tells you. Less obvious if not. It appears some people's definition ends at the HUD, despite any other visual clues or mechanical effects. The game cares about what's on the HUD just as much as it does that one lonely chest deep in some dungeon.
It's all there in the save file, anyway. Every bit of data needs to be saved, and every event that is flagged as "done" or "not done" is somewhere in there. While I say flag every one of them in there as "done", at least all of those that can be.
Some can argue that I would do too much, but I will say in return that I will have unambiguously produced a 100% run. But why did I do this tiny thing that no one will notice or care about? I will say, does that make my run "less 100%" than if I didn't do it?
What I see here, the bulk of the trouble is defining what of this stuff the game tracks as "important enough" to include in a 100%. I will ask a silly question: Why is the HUD important? Is it visibility? Suppose I never show it. No viewer can confirm or deny 100% status then, without watching the whole run.
Is it irreversible once done?
You can only do some events once. You can only gain the rewards of certain places once. Things done might improve you in some way, and there may well be nothing intended in the game to take that away.
I'm pretty certain many people are in agreement here that picking up a rupee does not count as irreversible, but getting a new rupee wallet is. Triggering cutscenes usually is irreversible, but perhaps there's a few that are "lost" after doing something, never to be triggered. Does the act of triggering an event that prevents another from triggering considered just as fine?
Okay, bringing up cutscenes is probably silly. Even I, someone who prefers getting that one tiny useless chest in the depths of some dungeon, feels iffy about triggering unneeded cutscenes just to say it's irreversibly triggered. But if the trigger disappears from a different event, does the game track it? Is there any way of knowing aside from hacking the save?
Interesting questions, perhaps. But now we're moving back towards my first main question of what the game tracks. But irreversible events tend to be a pretty good starting point when finding stuff that could move you towards 100%.
Oh, just a side note: If you can reverse an event by erasing the save and starting over from scratch, that string of actions does not remove my label of "irreversible."
Is it done by non-repeating events?
In other words, dieing just to increment some counter is a repeating, although irreversible event. Gathering stuff from defeated enemies is a repeating event. Going from place to place is a repeating event. Sure, this could be stuff that can be tracked by the game, but really, repeating events.
I don't think the fluff here is important, but as I already listed the question, I felt the need to explain myself about it.
Does it give me more to do?
Setting every possible camera angle in every possible position during every possible situation gives me more to do, but doing that is filed under "no" with my other three questions. But the spirit of the question here isn't what ridiculous crazy mindless stuff the player can do.
What I want to know is, will it look much like an any% for this segment if I don't do this? Is there something meaningful I can do in the meantime that would further the goals of doing irreversible non-repeating events tracked by the game? If clearing a temple "100% style" means I grab the bow and slay the boss, am I not already doing just what the any% is doing?
Of course, doing more stuff takes more time, and therefore slows the run down. People will complain that you didn't do this. People will complain you didn't need to do that, and you could have gone faster by skipping it. There is no middle ground where everyone is happy, so I choose one extreme and stick with it.
I doubt I can change the course of discussion in just one post. However, the fact the issue of what 100% means has been going on long enough that I got a bit upset. Thus, prompting me to get this account out of its cobwebs and provide a piece of my thoughts to you.
Basically, I want you all to get things together and decide now what a proper 100% is. No one will be happy, and I don't expect to be fully satisfied with any definition set forth, but at least we'll have a run.
Just for the sake of it, here's the definition of the most complete 100% imaginable. The idea is to put everything in the game in its "final state"
THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY!
- Collect everything on the status screen (Skulltulas, quest items, songs, Stone of Agony, Gerudo Card)
- Collect everything on the equipment screen
- Collect everything on the items screen
- Complete the map screen in both overworld and dungeons (every skulltula symbol, every dungeon item, every room blue)
- Get Epona and the cow
- Open every chest in the game
- Buy everything in the Bombchu Shop
- Buy and plant all Magic Beans
- Get every small key in the game
- Open all doors that require keys (small oder boss keys)
- Remove every cutscene trigger from the game
- Kill every enemy that stays permanently dead (bosses, minibosses, skulltulas, big poes, normal enemies that make things appear or open doors)
- Destroy everything that remains permanently destroyed
- Put every puzzle in its "solved" state, if this state is permanent (overworld and dungeons)
- Put every NPC in its "final state" (so he/she/it has only that last text left, that appears after everything related to the character has been done. This also applies to characters who only have long text the first time you talk to them. You would need to talk to those at least once. Also, the NPC needs to be at its final location)
- The thing with the NPCs would need to be done separately for Child Link and Adult Link
And even here, with this gigantic list of things to do, there's still place for a debate:
- The Giant Knife could be skipped, as it is not related to a chest that must be opened and the person who gives it to you has the same "final state", regardless from if you get it or not.
- The race to get Epona could still be skipped, as the outcome is the same once you get her
- If a NPC gets in a state where he/she/it only has one textbox left and/or is at his final area, but this is not the "intended final state", would this count?
- If you remove a cutscene trigger by doing things out of order, would this count?
You see, it's impossible to define a "real" 100%. Every definition will be arbitrary in some way...
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
