Mod edit: Topic split from 2612S discussion. -Mothrayas
----------------
CoolKirby wrote:
1. Since this is a playaround, it should be moved to the Moons tier since runs that don't aim for fastest time (as the author originally said it didn't) are ineligible for the Vault.
Wait, what? Since when does the Moon tier mean "everything that doesn't aim for fastest time"?
The tier description page says: "These are movies which the audience greatly appreciate beyond a level of just merely seeing a game beaten quickly. Since this deals with appreciation, those movies of a more exotic nature are acceptable here when the audience, and by extension, the judges, deem them entertaining. Movies with sufficient entertainment levels will be accepted for this tier as long as no major drawbacks are found in them."
This isn't a case of the author being "convinced". This depends on whether it simply is true or not.
If I make a playaround and later claim it's for fastest time, that doesn't suddenly not make it a playaround, nor does that make it eligible for "fastest time" when it actually isn't.
Oh, I see. I mistakenly thought the author's opinion held some gravity in deciding the goals of the movie. I figured it was possible that he originally made it for fastest time but labeled it as a playaround anyway (since he now thinks it was never a playaround).
Warp wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
1. Since this is a playaround, it should be moved to the Moons tier since runs that don't aim for fastest time (as the author originally said it didn't) are ineligible for the Vault.
Wait, what? Since when does the Moon tier mean "everything that doesn't aim for fastest time"?
I'm saying that it doesn't belong in the Vault, since movies in the Vault can only be any% or 100% (fastest time). The only other place the run could be published would be Moons. Besides, a few people found it really entertaining, so that sounds like the best place for it anyway.
I'm saying that it doesn't belong in the Vault, since movies in the Vault can only be any% or 100% (fastest time). The only other place the run could be published would be Moons.
Then perhaps that should be fixed. Either expand the meaning of the Vault tier, or create a fourth, distinct tier (which is more like "parallel" to the others, rather than being "below" or "above" anything.) Else the meaning of the Moon tier would get rather diluted, IMO. A kind of dumpster for "everything that doesn't fit anywhere else", which I don't think is the intent of that tier.
Besides, a few people found it really entertaining, so that sounds like the best place for it anyway.
I don't disagree with that. It was just your original rationale that caught my eye.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
I've taken a look at the run, and it seems that the run's first priority is maximum score, and time is a secondary goal - judging from the fact that, for example, the archery game aims to hit the bullseye every time. The other sports also aim for maximum score, whether it's by being the fastest or just by getting perfect scores for things like diving.
That said, I think the run should be moved to Moons. Maximum score is not a vaultable category.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I'm saying that it doesn't belong in the Vault, since movies in the Vault can only be any% or 100% (fastest time). The only other place the run could be published would be Moons.
Then perhaps that should be fixed. Either expand the meaning of the Vault tier, or create a fourth, distinct tier (which is more like "parallel" to the others, rather than being "below" or "above" anything.) Else the meaning of the Moon tier would get rather diluted, IMO. A kind of dumpster for "everything that doesn't fit anywhere else", which I don't think is the intent of that tier.
I'm all for either option. It seems like the Vault is currently limited by those options. I think the Vault should have the same rules as the Moons tier, except for movies that aren't as entertaining.
Warp wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
Besides, a few people found it really entertaining, so that sounds like the best place for it anyway.
I don't disagree with that. It was just your original rationale that caught my eye.
I apologize for not being very clear. I don't have an opinion on where this movie ends up though (I haven't even watched it yet).
Thanks for getting this sorted out, Mothrayas. I hope it's possible for the run to be manually moved.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
In theory, Vault goals can be expanded, but it would destroy the speed record storage meaning and would unleash unlimited amount of submissions with odd goals. I explained that in the Judge guidelines and in Submission instructions I believe.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
I'm saying that it doesn't belong in the Vault, since movies in the Vault can only be any% or 100% (fastest time). The only other place the run could be published would be Moons.
Then perhaps that should be fixed. Either expand the meaning of the Vault tier, or create a fourth, distinct tier (which is more like "parallel" to the others, rather than being "below" or "above" anything.) Else the meaning of the Moon tier would get rather diluted, IMO. A kind of dumpster for "everything that doesn't fit anywhere else", which I don't think is the intent of that tier.
I think the meaning of Moons is already quite "diluted". Moons are used for basically everything that isn't Vault and isn't Star material either. This includes both speedrun records that are entertaining, non-speed records that are entertaining, and non-speed records that attempt to be entertaining. This run falls under that third category. Ideally, those wouldn't have been published in the first place, but mistakes happen sometimes. I don't think a fourth tier would be a solution either. The current three-tier system is already confusing enough for some people.
I actually don't think Moons should even be considered a tier. In fact, I think Moons should be removed as a tier, and what are now "Moons" should just not have a tier at all. I think things would make more sense this way.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Moons is a useful name for a default tier though >_>
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
feos wrote:
Moons is a useful name for a default tier though >_>
I disagree. It gives the movies a certain degree of sounding somewhat special or notable, which is not always warranted. Note that before the tier system was implemented, the Moons were used for exactly that purpose - runs that were somewhat considered 'notable'.
The problem with Moons now is that it makes people think that it, as a tier, has special requirements that runs need to fulfill in order to be a "Moon". In reality, this is not the case.
(In practice, the only qualification for a Moon is, basically, "Not Vault". This is why I don't consider it a tier at all.)
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Moons is a useful name for a default tier though >_>
lol im morthrayas.
I have to agree with Mothrayas here. IMO, runs in moons should be identified with this goofy picture of Charles Guiteau.
In all seriousness, I don't see why having a notifier for moons is necesary. Why not just have nothing at all?
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Because having no icon may cause confusion with some lists that omit icons already. And what would you call your no-notifier tier?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
feos wrote:
Because having no icon may cause confusion with some lists that omit icons already.
If that's an issue, they shouldn't omit their icons then.
feos wrote:
And what would you call your no-notifier tier?
Like I said, it would not be a tier.
Consider pre-tier TASVideos, which had "Stars" and regular runs. I think we should just make it somewhat similar to that -- having "Stars", regular runs, and "Vault".
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
I have to wonder if this is a problem with the categories as listed. Since this is a game with some non-standard goals as well as aiming for fastest in-game times (on the stages where it is relevant), it's like suddenly it doesn't fit into whatever 'neat' category the moon or whatever was supposed to represent. So the question is - what do you do with a game that isn't so clear cut like this one?
I have to wonder if this is a problem with the categories as listed. Since this is a game with some non-standard goals as well as aiming for fastest in-game times (on the stages where it is relevant), it's like suddenly it doesn't fit into whatever 'neat' category the moon or whatever was supposed to represent. So the question is - what do you do with a game that isn't so clear cut like this one?
It's clear cut for every game. If the total time of the run is deliberately not as fast as possible, it can't go in the vault. If it is it can. There's nothing "non-standard" about it.
YoungJ1997lol wrote:
Normally i would say Yes, but thennI thought "its not the same hack" so ill stick with meh.
To me it's also pretty clear.
If this movie is in Moons tier, then it can only be beaten by a submission that gets positive audience feedback (majority of Yes votes, or maybe the judge decided to go against majority and still publish the movie in Moons).
But if the movie is in Vault, then it will be obsoleted by any submission that is faster (granted that difficulty and other settings match).
Toothache wrote:
I have to wonder if this is a problem with the categories as listed. Since this is a game with some non-standard goals as well as aiming for fastest in-game times (on the stages where it is relevant), it's like suddenly it doesn't fit into whatever 'neat' category the moon or whatever was supposed to represent. So the question is - what do you do with a game that isn't so clear cut like this one?
Whether the game has non-standard goals is irrelevant for Vault, because if achieving those goals doesn't produce an interesting movie, then the game would simply be considered a "bad game choice" under old rules, and would be rejected.
I have always understood the current tiers as this:
Vault: The default tier. Since every game deserves a TAS, no matter how unsuitable the game might be for that purpose (from an entertainment perspective), everything goes at the very least here.
Moon: TASes that are more entertaining and appreciated than the average. Basically, what was previously considered publication-worthy (ie. entertaining enough to be accepted for publication), or even a bit stricter (so as to not make this tier excessively large.)
Star: TASes that are not only moon-tier, but have been manually selected for this tier because they showcase in some manner what's cool about TASing. In other words, a relatively small collection of TASes that are extraordinarily representative of what TASing is. A "watch these first" list. (While these tend to be some of the highest-rated TASes as well, they don't have to be, and that's not the main point of this tier.)
If the Vault tier ought be one mainly collecting speed records for games that can't get to the Moon level, then we may need a fourth tier for those TASes where speed is not the goal (but which don't go to the Moon nor Star tiers either, because of lacking sufficient entertainment.) This tier ought to be conceptually "parallel" to the other tiers, rather than being below or above anything.
Warp wrote:
A kind of dumpster for "everything that doesn't fit anywhere else", which I don't think is the intent of that tier[moons].
----------
I feel like that is what Vault is. I think Vault needs to be split into two. Vault is still the lowest, but I think there should be a "default" tier above for runs that are borderline between vault and moons. I think that many vaulted TASes don't belong there, nor in moons.
Mothrayas wrote:
I actually don't think Moons should even be considered a tier.
----------
I suppose that Moons (and even star) could instead be a tag. That way there would be two categories (vault and default), and then the important runs would be tagged, just like how it was in the past. That does seem more simple.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
Warp wrote:
If the Vault tier ought be one mainly collecting speed records for games that can't get to the Moon level, then we may need a fourth tier for those TASes where speed is not the goal (but which don't go to the Moon nor Star tiers either, because of lacking sufficient entertainment.) This tier ought to be conceptually "parallel" to the other tiers, rather than being below or above anything.
I think having four tiers would be way too cluttered and messy. Three tiers are already bad enough.
Not to mention, adding a tier to put runs that don't go for speed nor entertainment goes against the point of the Vault tier, which is to keep TASVideos manageable w.r.t. uninteresting, unentertaining or "bad" games. With that fourth tier, we'd get too much clutter with bad, uninteresting runs with semi-arbitrary goals.
Generally, the runs that fit neither Vault or Moon (such as this run) are mistakes that shouldn't even have been accepted. (SNES F-Zero is another notorious example with the same issue). And I think it should stay this way - runs that fail at both entertainment and speed should just be rejected.
dunnius wrote:
I suppose that Moons (and even star) could instead be a tag. That way there would be two categories (vault and default), and then the important runs would be tagged, just like how it was in the past. That does seem more simple.
Makes sense. I'd agree with this idea.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa
<dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects.
<Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits
<adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
The 2 tier/2 tag system looks good:
ANY goal that is enjoyable - default.
STRICT speed goal that is boring - vault.
BEST OF THE BEST runs - stars.
JUST BEST that didn't pass the quota, but still are really high standard - moons.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
To clarify what I meant by neither Vault or Moon: runs that too good to fit in vault, but not good enough to be fit in moons. I think this applies to many TASes.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
If you define Moons as, say, 7+ rated, then yes, some runs are not as good, but still legit and interesting for quite some people. Some Atari TASes were well voted and got to Moons, even getting really bad rates afterwards.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If the movie is not entertaining enough to merit moon tier (vote and judge decision), and does have entertainment trade-off, what is even the point of having entertainment trade-off in the first place? Might as well go for full speed and still be boring and go to the vault.
The problem here is the word "moon" which some people think it means more then "the movie was considered entertaining enough to be published"
In all seriousness, I don't see why having a notifier for moons is necesary. Why not just have nothing at all?
