Posted: 8/5/2013 5:53 PM
Post subject: Better audio for 10bit444 encodes.
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11276
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
AngerFist used to request HQ encodes with overkilled settings for some TASes: lossless audio and overscaled video. The file size was respective. RGamma was making such encodes for him lately. Today I published Super Metroid with usual 10bit encode, but used q10 ogg audio, just for AngerFiset (regards only the alternate encode). He said that he sees and hears no disadvantage over the usual HQ encodes he requests, just is surprized by the file size. I propose using better audio settings for 10bits, since they already have lossless video, having near-lossless audio is logical. People can resize the encode with pixel filter and see the same lossless video they see in emulator. But audio was always suffering. Why not make it better? The only question is, what setting is the best? Since it is a chiptune, neither lossless, nor q10 are really needed. But what would be the transparent minimum?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 8/5/2013 8:49 PM
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creaothceann
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Posts: 1874
Location: Germany
I don't seehear a reason to go beyond MP3@192kbps, but that's just me.
Posted: 8/5/2013 10:54 PM
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Patashu
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Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4018
VBR mp3 at the highest or second highest quality level could work well.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 8/6/2013 3:45 AM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1237)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11276
Location: RU
NES TAS of 2011
I know that V0 is the best/maximum. But what about minimal transparent setting for ogg?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 8/11/2013 11:12 PM
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OmnipotentEntity
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Player (36)
Joined: 9/11/2004
Posts: 2624
feos wrote:
I know that V0 is the best/maximum. But what about minimal transparent setting for ogg?
Something like -q4 starts becoming transparent in my experience, less for chiptunes. Here's some examples. The first set is labeled, the second and third are not, but you can check which is which in the spoiler. Source 1: FLAC copy of Kong In Concert track 17: Prophecy - Chekan Winter (Northern Hemispheres) q1: Average bitrate: 74.8 kb/s q2: Average bitrate: 91.8 kb/s q3: Average bitrate: 109.2 kb/s q4: Average bitrate: 124.5 kb/s q5: Average bitrate: 155.7 kb/s q6: Average bitrate: 185.4 kb/s q7: Average bitrate: 210.2 kb/s q8: Average bitrate: 244.3 kb/s q9: Average bitrate: 313.0 kb/s q10: Average bitrate: 441.1 kb/s source: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/source1.flac q1: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-1.ogg q2: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-2.ogg q3: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-3.ogg q4: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-4.ogg q5: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-5.ogg q6: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-6.ogg q7: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-7.ogg q8: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-8.ogg q9: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-9.ogg q10: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output1-10.ogg Source 2: FLAC copy of Homestuck Gaiden track 6: The Land of Wind and Shade q1: Average bitrate: 71.9 kb/s q2: Average bitrate: 89.0 kb/s q3: Average bitrate: 106.2 kb/s q4: Average bitrate: 120.3 kb/s q5: Average bitrate: 150.1 kb/s q6: Average bitrate: 179.0 kb/s q7: Average bitrate: 202.8 kb/s q8: Average bitrate: 233.7 kb/s q9: Average bitrate: 298.4 kb/s q10: Average bitrate: 425.9 kb/s Source 2 http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/source2.flac 0ckhKXJj: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-0ckhKXJj.ogg 682G8FV7: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-682G8FV7.ogg a4XL0KfT: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-a4XL0KfT.ogg azBHpi7H: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-azBHpi7H.ogg bVSTfKKC: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-bVSTfKKC.ogg Gueh0FtN: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-Gueh0FtN.ogg ImeMbVQC: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-ImeMbVQC.ogg Jljp5dyW: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-Jljp5dyW.ogg qiEq0JHU: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-qiEq0JHU.ogg thZ6UDdb: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output2-thZ6UDdb.ogg output2-qiEq0JHU.ogg = q1 output2-thZ6UDdb.ogg = q2 output2-682G8FV7.ogg = q3 output2-ImeMbVQC.ogg = q4 output2-Gueh0FtN.ogg = q5 output2-Jljp5dyW.ogg = q6 output2-a4XL0KfT.ogg = q7 output2-azBHpi7H.ogg = q8 output2-bVSTfKKC.ogg = q9 output2-0ckhKXJj.ogg = q10 Source 3: 320 kbps mp3 copy of The Skies Are Not Enough converted back to wav before encoding (best quality gratis chiptune music I could find immediately, not lossless, sorry :( ) q1: Average bitrate: 71.7 kb/s q2: Average bitrate: 88.4 kb/s q3: Average bitrate: 111.1 kb/s q4: Average bitrate: 133.9 kb/s q5: Average bitrate: 168.4 kb/s q6: Average bitrate: 201.7 kb/s q7: Average bitrate: 235.2 kb/s q8: Average bitrate: 274.7 kb/s q9: Average bitrate: 340.0 kb/s q10: Average bitrate: 451.3 kb/s Source: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/source3.mp3 24CXBmX0: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-24CXBmX0.ogg 9QvRA3bo: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-9QvRA3bo.ogg IK03nUVR: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-IK03nUVR.ogg KAKKZSId: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-KAKKZSId.ogg lgsx7RX6: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-lgsx7RX6.ogg qCB4AUN2: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-qCB4AUN2.ogg Sdxs6kCc: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-Sdxs6kCc.ogg uBy7X8y3: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-uBy7X8y3.ogg w7vgdV1C: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-w7vgdV1C.ogg ZMiPVOEZ: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/output3-ZMiPVOEZ.ogg output3-uBy7X8y3.ogg = q1 output3-9QvRA3bo.ogg = q2 output3-KAKKZSId.ogg = q3 output3-IK03nUVR.ogg = q4 output3-lgsx7RX6.ogg = q5 output3-24CXBmX0.ogg = q6 output3-w7vgdV1C.ogg = q7 output3-qCB4AUN2.ogg = q8 output3-Sdxs6kCc.ogg = q9 output3-ZMiPVOEZ.ogg = q10 All files: http://engelsish.org/ogg-encoding-test/all.zip
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Posted: 10/1/2013 9:22 PM
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Fishaman_P
Joined: 10/1/2013
Posts: 98
Location: My Basement
I cannot recommend MP3 for anything. Not only is it inefficient, but VBR in an AVI (common for old encodes) is unsupported and buggy. I don't feel too good about OGG either. I would suggest either AAC or Opus. Both have very similar quality/bitrate ratio, slightly favoring Opus. Opus is also unencumbered by patents, so I give it my thumbs up. Opus is decently supported (I know VLC and Firefox play Opus, and probably many more apps as well). If 10bit444 is standard now, I don't see why Opus can't be either. For both AAC and Opus, 64kbps per channel is very good quality, and 96kbps is audibly lossless to my semi-audiophile ears. EDIT: If you want chiptunes for testing, grab some Genesis vgz files and use software like Audio Overload to convert it to a WAV. Sounds phenomenal, despite being the wrong sampling rate.
Posted: 10/1/2013 9:32 PM
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Ilari
Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1142)
Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217
Rookie of 2010 New systems TASer of 2010 New systems TAS of 2010
Fishaman P wrote:
I cannot recommend MP3 for anything. Not only is it inefficient, but VBR in an AVI (common for old encodes) is unsupported and buggy.
MP3 and AVI hasn't been used for a long time (last use I can find was June 2009 for both). Any AVI is subject to re-encoding (there are also 7 MKV MP3 encodes).
Fishaman P wrote:
I don't feel too good about OGG either.
You mean Vorbis, right?
Fishaman P wrote:
I would suggest either AAC or Opus. Both have very similar quality/bitrate ratio, slightly favoring Opus.
That's what the current guidelines are (first use of Opus was 2460M, September 2013). Also, MP4 is disfavored among encoders due to the amount of BS required to produce dedupped MP4 encode.
Fishaman P wrote:
For both AAC and Opus, 64kbps per channel is very good quality, and 96kbps is audibly lossless to my semi-audiophile ears.
Thread #14314: Opus codec quality testing
Posted: 10/1/2013 10:32 PM
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Fishaman_P
Joined: 10/1/2013
Posts: 98
Location: My Basement
Yes yes, all of that. Glad to see Opus is being used now! I just remarked on Vorbis and MP3 because this entire topic had only mentioned those.