Post by The_Wanderer

Posted: 12/21/2013 10:27 AM

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Warepire

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Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

FatRatKnight wrote:

EDIT: Well, snap. Critical Sword seems to kill everything not invincible or in a boss room in a single hit, forget about being a high enough level to swing it. Obviously the metal and spirit enemies are unaffected, but yeesh. This makes anything that allows us to walk close disappear in record time. Every 16th frame. I need to investigate bosses, though, but I don't think I'll one-hit them, because well... Boss.

I had a feeling the Critical Sword would be useful when the crit system was understood. This is amazing. When playing in real time, using the slash method (on the European version), I can kill Poseidon way faster using the Critical Sword than the Lucky Blade. The functionality may be different, but I believe you do get some kind of crit-ability on bosses, in the shape of doing more damage than regular slashes.

Posted: 12/21/2013 12:29 PM

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Kaz

Former player

Joined: 12/2/2005
Posts: 149

I've watched your WIP, it looks fine. You'll have to redo the end of greenwood to save more gems for world 3 though. A run of the japanese version would have easier bosses and one more death warp, I don't think that's significant enough to justify a version switch.

Posted: 12/21/2013 1:01 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

The Wanderer wrote:

There's no chance of me completing a translation far enough to be useful in time for anything to do with this run, but if there's anything in particular where you'd like to check if it's different, please feel free to point me to the appropriate Japanese text and I can see if I can find anything out.

Thanks for the offer. All I ask is that you keep up in my WIPs (and hope they are sufficiently entertaining) and take a brief look at my subtitles relating to the texts. I don't have any particular bits to look at, really. As for Critical Sword versus Lucky Blade, this one-hit-kill mechanic does have some interesting implications. I need GEMs to throw Light Arrows everywhere, and there's a lot of enemies out of immediate reach, though by the time I get there, the Magic Armor is close by and gives me lots more arrows. The Lucky Blade, when equipped, will definitely give more GEMs to throw out there, but switching weapons do take a little time. I still haven't had success with bonus damage against bosses (U). However, other enemies in the boss room do take fatal damage, as my earlier tests forgot to equip the Critical Sword then. I'll keep checking at times to see if I can get extra damage in. The most attractive bit for JPN is the smaller downtime between the action stuff. I personally feel the run is a lot smoother to watch because of this, as the time taken is reduced by a very significant factor (each character takes one frame, not three) but if the English text is that important, I can try to keep a USA run in parallel. Also, I have to redo a bit further back than just the end parts. Those, uh... Stalker lizards (my name for those disappearing ones) take 60 more frames to kill by sword rather than by arrow, as they do disappear and become unable to be hit after the initial invincibility wears off. The solution I like best is to manipulate more GEMs in some rooms. Also, I can keep most of the parts I've TASed assuming the RNG is aligned how I like it.

Posted: 12/21/2013 3:15 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Hmm... I know the game version I'm using in that WIP is (U), not (J). I'm not aware of any particular settings that might cause a desync. Look in the message log and see if lsnes gives a warning about a mismatched ROM. I'll take a second look at my settings if you confirm you're using a (U) ROM, but I am using a Windows build of lsnes. EDIT: Updated the descriptions in the movie information what version I'm using. By the way, those WIPs have no subtitles, since I didn't expect any need for them, yet.

Posted: 12/21/2013 3:43 PM

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The_Wanderer

Joined: 10/9/2011
Posts: 12

That would explain the difference. From the thread I thought you were using the [J] version, but apparently I misread which parts of the discussion were about hypothetical possibilities vs. which were about what has already been done. Yes, it syncs with the [U] ROM, although it does complain about a mismatch between accuracy core vs. compatibility core. I noticed the lack of subtitles, but I figured that was reasonable for this stage of progress, even when I thought you had been using the [J] version already.

Posted: 12/21/2013 3:49 PM

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Ilari

Emulator Coder, Skilled player (1114)

Joined: 5/1/2010
Posts: 1217

The Wanderer wrote:

Yes, it syncs with the [U] ROM, although it does complain about a mismatch between accuracy core vs. compatibility core.

Er, where did you get lsnes with accuracy core (because the movie is using compat)? Built it yourself?

Posted: 12/21/2013 5:38 PM

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The_Wanderer

Joined: 10/9/2011
Posts: 12

Yes - as I said, that was the only way I found to get a Linux version. Though I often prefer to build from source myself anyway, if I can't find the program in the Debian repositories.

Posted: 12/23/2013 4:33 PM

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Everhate

Joined: 12/23/2013
Posts: 1

Glad to see someone working on improving this. Hopefully some more stuff I can modify to work in real time D As for version differences, the J version obviously has drastically faster text. There are also a few minor changes to bosses Metal Mantis obviously a bit faster because of room layout. 3rd lion statue boss has a bit different AI, so strategy for killing it may not directly transfer over (though first 2 seem to be identical) Skull boss appears to have less HP, as it can be 2-cycled in real time Poseidon's room layout is altered with the ledges on either side extended, making it possible to deal damage when it's on the left or right before descending to attack. There may be another few differences, those are just the ones that come to mind. Don't want you to plan a strat on one version only to have it fail or be suboptimal on the other =)

Posted: 12/24/2013 12:46 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Aside from herb usage and health management, planning ahead for bosses generally doesn't provide much benefit. I just figure out how the fight goes when I get there. But it's still good to know what to expect from the bosses. Also, it's not just the room layout, but the first boss also does one point less damage per fireball. This little fact means (J) can just run up and stab the boss without any further motion, using an herb to keep alive, trivial even in real time. (U) is much trickier, and a run must go to a side path to delay the boss in order to survive long enough. About the versions, I've actually decided to stick with the current (U) WIP that I have. I realized with my earlier habits that I tend to lose interest, staying with what I have now and going with it will maximize the chances I produce a complete run. The more time that passes since I start a project, the more likely I just stop without ever coming back to it. But if I can still keep going after I get a complete TAS, I'll go back and finally add in the improvements and try to get perfection, or the closest thing I can reach to it, under both versions. Knowing I have a complete run will let me relax a little more, in any case. For this decision, I did TAS ahead with the 24 GEMs I ended with. Turns out I didn't actually need more than that. A touch of manipulation keeps up the flow of GEMs and my arrows keep killing enemies in all the important spots. Expect further progress sometime in the future. I have been analyzing the internal structure of the game for a bit... An Snes9x script shows me some suspicious boxes. Download Snes9x_SB_boxes.lua

Language: lua
local R2u,R2s= memory.readword, memory.readwordsigned

local function HitBoxes()
    local Panic= 0
    local Next= R2u(0x7E06A6)   -- Soul Blazer (U)
--    local Next= R2u(0x7E06A3)   -- Soul Blader (J)
    local total= 0
    local CamX, CamY= R2s(0x7E0052)+16,R2s(0x7E0054)+16
    while Next ~= 0 do
        Panic= Panic+1
        if Panic > 255 then gui.register(function() end); print("Panic"); return end

        local Addr= 0x7E0000 + Next

        if R2u(Addr+0x16) < 0x8000 then
            local X  ,Y  = R2s(Addr+0x00)-CamX, R2s(Addr+0x02)-CamY
            local Hx1,Hy1= R2s(Addr+0x08), R2s(Addr+0x0A)
            local Hx2,Hy2= R2s(Addr+0x0C), R2s(Addr+0x0E)
            gui.box(X-Hx1,Y-Hy1,X+Hx2,Y+Hy2,0x00FF0040,0x00FF00C0)
        end
        Next= R2u(Addr + 0x3E)
    end
end
gui.register(HitBoxes)

Posted: 12/27/2013 3:45 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Took me a while to realize Everhate is the one who's making those realtime speedruns. Let's see... Easy tricks I can think of that even real time can do that will still improve the TAS... Chests automatically open if you pass in front of them while facing up. If you don't want to open them, don't face up. You can pre-equip items. Just the items, not the sword, armor, or spell, as those simply reset your cursor back to nothing. You can, for example, move the cursor where the Dream Rod will appear, open the chest containing it, and walk over to Lisa without visiting the menu again. Saves one menu transition, and likely ideal to do when equipping the Flame Ball, as the cursor is already two steps to the item menu. There's a mild example already done with Medical Herbs and the fact the second is used without specifically equipping that. Those invincible gorillas can move in a more direct line by simply standing one full tile above them, then moving two tiles at a time to the right. They'll walk to the right. They won't throw the rock if you wait long enough. You're just outside their damage zone. It should be easy to get them to that lightning rock this way. These tricks come to mind. They may not be big, but it's probably best to share them. Progress is slow. I'm at the second island, Rockbird. That one with all the lakes. I'll probably upload a new WIP after getting the Critical Sword and death warping out of the volcanic island. Oh, and have an lsnes script: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/11605836887834478

Posted: 1/27/2014 4:22 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Yeah, my apologies. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12283551033456152 Soul Blader (J), current WIP. This is very early in the run. There are a few improvements I can try. Notes are in the link. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12283651408702529 Soul Blazer (U), current WIP. Considering my lack of progress, I think it's a bit unfair to be keeping the file with me. While progress is uncertain with me, it will certainly be difficult for others if I don't share my latest stuff. I've been putting a few things I know here. Since I am having difficulties focusing on TASing efforts, I would at least get some things up to help smooth out some difficulties for any potential TASers out there. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/12283335305507377 Here's my latest lsnes script. Can be run on top of any other scripts you have running, and it shouldn't interfere. Shows boxes now.

Posted: 2/1/2014 10:49 PM

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mklip2001

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Joined: 6/23/2009
Posts: 2227
Location: Georgia, USA

Hi there, I just realized from the posted WIPs that you were working on this run! I don't know if I can be much help beyond being a basic WIP watcher though. I do enjoy this game, enough so that I bought a copy after watching Kaz's TAS. I'm especially curious to see how big a difference it makes to use that glitch you found about swinging an under-leveled sword. If it can't cast Phoenix, then you still can't avoid the level rush at the end of the game, though.

Used to be a frequent submissions commenter. My new computer has had some issues running emulators, so I've been here more sporadically. Still haven't gotten around to actually TASing yet... I was going to improve Kid Dracula for GB. It seems I was beaten to it, though, with a recent awesome run by Hetfield90 and StarvinStruthers. (http://tasvideos.org/2928M.html.) Thanks to goofydylan8 for running Gargoyle's Quest 2 because I mentioned the game! (http://tasvideos.org/2001M.html) Thanks to feos and MESHUGGAH for taking up runs of Duck Tales 2 because of my old signature! Thanks also to Samsara for finishing a Treasure Master run. From the submission comments:

Shoutouts and thanks to mklip2001 for arguably being the nicest and most supportive person on the forums.

Posted: 7/5/2014 12:16 PM

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Warepire

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Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

Progress FatRatKnight?

Posted: 7/7/2014 5:59 PM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

Aside from implementing my own suggestions for Soul Blader (J), and never bothering to upload that, I have no progress worth noting. I'm usually pretty vocal about any progress I make if there's any, and quiet if I've stopped. It helps to have an occasional reminder, though.

Posted: 9/10/2015 9:51 PM

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LeHulk

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Active player (350)

Joined: 8/23/2015
Posts: 34
Location: France

Bump! All right, I have started TASing the (J) version of this. I currently am in the middle of the second Underground Castle visit, a little bit after sealing the monster lair which rescues Lisa. This project is going to be long but I am really happy to work on it. HUGE thanks to FatRatKnight for his scripts and WIPs which gave me a lot of useful ideas. I adapted his scripts to BizHawk (only the RNG-related things and the Monster Lair listing). By the way, I found an idea to optimize the part just before the first death warp: the last two monster lairs with imps can be dealt with simultaneously. Thanks to that I managed to save about 460 frames over FatRatKnight's (J) WIP. :)

Posted: 9/13/2015 3:31 PM

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Warepire

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Joined: 3/2/2010
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Sweet! I was kinda looking forward to the US version because it is harder, but none-the-less looking forward to WIPs! This sure is gonna be swell. Good luck!

Posted: 9/13/2015 5:35 PM

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LeHulk

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Joined: 8/23/2015
Posts: 34
Location: France

Ask and you shall receive! Here's the WIP with the first world completed. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/25484273135385711 YouTube encode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMjgZtdU_Z4 I have started Greenwood, which is even more of a pain in terms of Gem drop manipulation. We'll see how this turns out! For the U version, only the bosses are a bit harder (except the 2nd one, harder in J). On the other hand, having about 8 more minutes worth of text and cutscenes was the deal breaker for me. In RTA running also, I tend to favor the J version.

Posted: 9/13/2015 9:34 PM

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Warepire

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Joined: 3/2/2010
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Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

TASes are usually supposed to be played on the hardest difficulty unless there is a good reason not to. Anyhow, I have now watched the WIP, and the "department of silly walks" improved the entertainment a lot over the current TAS. Also fantastic improvements. Don't have anything more constructive unfortunately. Looking forward to the next WIP! Keep it up!

Posted: 9/14/2015 7:59 AM

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FatRatKnight

Editor, Skilled player (1203)

Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085

"Hardest difficulty" in this case means picking a different cartridge (U vs. J). Indeed, the faster JPN texts are certainly helping the flow. As for comments on the run itself... It is possible to trigger the lair button while at 0 HP. However, if you were restoring part of a town, you recover some back and do not deathwarp right away, yet for whatever reason, your GEM count is still set to zero. Regardless, you would have fewer HP to die with when the screen transitions back. 2 less EXP, since you must leave a slime ball alive to die when clearing the lair, and again just before the actual deathwarp when you no longer have any GEMs to use, but it seems you have plenty of EXP to spare at the time, since you stopped at exactly 99 with clear intent. The effect on the RNG and magician soul position might be important, however. My route involved getting lots of EXP early, and yours got the level up once in the painting. Yours means the next deathwarps require less HP to lose, but may be lacking in attack power for just a few enemies around later level ups in comparison. Considering the faster strategy before the first deathwarp, it seems doubtful you can get the "lots of EXP" like I did, and your choice is probably the optimal one to go with. When passing by a chest, facing north will automatically open it. I feel like this would save a frame in the painting, holding L/R since the last time you had to move north, but I'm honestly not positive about it. ... Hmm, since the blocks in the painting had a bad magician soul position, would it be possible to fit a few extra fireballs before the fated moment? Each one freezes the magician soul in place for a short time, and you did have a bad position then. Outside of that, this looks to be an improvement over what I was planning. Love the walks, the timesaver before the first deathwarp is great, and the GEM manipulation is beyond what I thought was feasible, even with my scripts. I'm impressed, and very happy someone else is picking up where I left off and even found some things I missed.

Posted: 9/14/2015 5:06 PM

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LeHulk

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Joined: 8/23/2015
Posts: 34
Location: France

Thanks a lot for the comments and the support.

FatRatKnight wrote:

It is possible to trigger the lair button while at 0 HP. However, if you were restoring part of a town, you recover some back and do not deathwarp right away, yet for whatever reason, your GEM count is still set to zero.

I actually knew about this (it happened once in my RTA attempts) but didn't think of it. Thanks for the idea! It sure would have saved 32 frames on the first deathwarp, if implemented correctly. I'll keep the idea in mind for the rest of the game.

FatRatKnight wrote:

My route involved getting lots of EXP early, and yours got the level up once in the painting. Yours means the next deathwarps require less HP to lose, but may be lacking in attack power for just a few enemies around later level ups in comparison. Considering the faster strategy before the first deathwarp, it seems doubtful you can get the "lots of EXP" like I did, and your choice is probably the optimal one to go with.

Not getting level 2 before the last deathwarp in Underground Castle was indeed the plan. The benefit of the early level 2 would be to save 16 frames on the last imp before the second deathwarp, and 16 frames on the first bird kill in Leo's paintings. But that does not compensate for the 64 lost frames due to the extra 2 HP's to deplete on the third deathwarp. And about the rest of the game, the actual EXP difference between the two strats is probably not meaningful enough in next areas where enemies give more than 30 apiece. It's hard to really tell, though.

FatRatKnight wrote:

When passing by a chest, facing north will automatically open it. I feel like this would save a frame in the painting, holding L/R since the last time you had to move north, but I'm honestly not positive about it.

I don't think it saves a frame but I'll check to be sure.

FatRatKnight wrote:

... Hmm, since the blocks in the painting had a bad magician soul position, would it be possible to fit a few extra fireballs before the fated moment? Each one freezes the magician soul in place for a short time, and you did have a bad position then.

I didn't think of that. That's another idea I'll keep in mind if that unfortunate case happens again. Thanks for the tip!

FatRatKnight wrote:

Outside of that, this looks to be an improvement over what I was planning. Love the walks, the timesaver before the first deathwarp is great, and the GEM manipulation is beyond what I thought was feasible, even with my scripts. I'm impressed, and very happy someone else is picking up where I left off and even found some things I missed.

Thanks a lot, it's an awesome project to work on, and even if it's quite a challenge for a beginner TASer like me, it's very rewarding and fascinating to do. Although, doing RTA runs has taught me a lot on the game, so at least I'm familiar with the route and basic mechanics.

Posted: 10/26/2015 6:13 PM

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Warepire

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Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)

How's it going in Greenwood?

Posted: 10/28/2015 3:44 AM

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TheAxeMan

Ambassador, Experienced player (710)

Joined: 7/17/2004
Posts: 985
Location: The FLOATING CASTLE

Very nice looking run! Before watching I would have said the same thing about preferring the harder (U) version especially since English is also a plus. But in this case the changes are very small and the text time saved is so much that it is a good case for an exception. Looking forward to seeing more big gems popping out as you work through this gem of a game!

Posted: 10/28/2015 2:40 PM

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LeHulk

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Joined: 8/23/2015
Posts: 34
Location: France

I'm currently at the beginning of the Fire Shrine. Things are looking good, although I'll probably have to do what FatRatKnight did in his WIP and grab the 100 Gem chest since a very large number of gems will be required to do Light Shrine efficiently, and I don't think I can be even close to manipulating enough gems until then. Defeating the lizardmen quickly with magic is really going to be an important improvement over Kaz's TAS (and RTA runs as well). I kind of put this project on hold for a bit since I'm currently back to doing some RTA speedrunning. Oh and thanks for the comment TheAxeMan! I feel the JP version is indeed more appealing because the faster text makes the overall run flow much more nicely. The text difference is about 8 or 9 minutes in an Any% run.

Posted: 11/29/2015 5:06 PM

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LeHulk

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Joined: 8/23/2015
Posts: 34
Location: France

Greenwood complete! Here is the second WIP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbuM_PcMOP4 I'm not happy with everything here, but with all the RNG, Gem requirements and magician's soul rotation kicking in I had to make some sacrifices, the most visible being that waiting in the Fire Shrine. Getting the 100 gem chest is almost certainly a good idea since gems save so much time in the Light Shrine, where I managed to manipulate some decent Gem drops. I only killed one lizardman with the sword with the idea of conserving enough gems for Southerta (I have 35, enough for 4 Light Arrows). Greenwood is much harder to optimize than Grass Valley, so I hope I managed to put together a decent route. I'm putting this TAS on hold for the rest of the year. In the meantime I'll try to figure out a good route for St. Elles, which is most definitely going to be significantly different from the RTA one.

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