Player (27)
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It should be in my signature.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
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luckytyphlosion wrote:
For anyone interested, here's a link for all Trainer-Fly Pokemon you can get: http://web.archive.org/web/20130907112429/http://puu.sh/257S
Quoted so it exists as a post.
Chamale
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luckytyphlosion wrote:
I've also found a faster way to get Mew: 1. Perform a Black-Out Trainer Fly on any trainer except the Lass with Clefairy.
Why not that Lass?
2. Walk into Mt. Moon and enter the bottom floor where the ether is. 3. Battle the rocket and let him walk to you. 4. Pick up the Ether. 5. Get an encounter for a level 12 Clefairy. The clefairy should have a special DV of 7, 8, 9 or 10. 6. Walk up to the first floor. 7. Get Mew.
This route looks even better. I'll look into manipulating dialogue boxes to pick up a Poké Ball remotely, which would let the run skip the Mart entirely.
Also, I was thinking about instead of using Charmander for the box data, you would use another Pokemon, say Pidgey. You would manipulate the DVs as usual, and in order to have 0x36, you would have Pidgey in front, battle 2 paras but switch out to charmander to split the EV from 55 to 27, which would then be 54.
That's an interesting idea. It skips a couple battles but that route would definitely require a trip to the Mart.
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Thanks, that chart is awesome. I was thinking moreso a chart for using wild Pokemon's special stats' (knowing which special stats are possible on which routes), but the trainer chart will be very useful as well.
Player (27)
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Chamale wrote:
Why not that Lass?
Although it doesn't matter much because I've figured out a faster way, the reason was there are no Pokemon in Mt. Moon or Route 3 that have 3 moves, and the Lass is the closest to the entrance of Mt. Moon. The new change would be to 1. battle the rocket 2. pick up TM01 3. get ether 4. get mew 5. teach TM01 to mew 6. let [Pokemon] gain 54 special EV by switching out 7. level up mew to 10 with mega punch and learn transform. 8. Fight the rocket with Raticate, transform, switch HYPER FANG with TACKLE. 9. Lose, warp back to Pokemon Center, deposit [Pokemon] with the correct EVs and DVs. 10. Get an encounter. 11. Win.
This route looks even better. I'll look into manipulating dialogue boxes to pick up a Poké Ball remotely, which would let the run skip the Mart entirely.
There is no Poke Ball in Mt. Moon. I've also been thinking about the "no glitched warps" category and I was wondering what the "no glitched warps" category specifies. Does no glitched warps mean that only wrong warping is banned? If the above is true, then would other glitches such as "Item Underflow" and "ZZAZZ glitch" as long as the player does not wrong warp?
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
Chamale
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luckytyphlosion wrote:
The new change would be to 1. battle the rocket 2. pick up TM01 3. get ether 4. get mew 5. teach TM01 to mew 6. let [Pokemon] gain 54 special EV by switching out 7. level up mew to 10 with mega punch and learn transform.
I'm not sure about this route, teaching Mega Punch and travelling further to find the Rocket with Raticate is potentially slower than the extra attacks from solely using Pound. At this point I think it's something that requires testing rather than discussion, I have midterms but I'll try to get on this soon.
There is no Poke Ball in Mt. Moon.
You're completely right, I got confused between Mount Moon and Viridian Forest.
I've also been thinking about the "no glitched warps" category and I was wondering what the "no glitched warps" category specifies. Does no glitched warps mean that only wrong warping is banned? If the above is true, then would other glitches such as "Item Underflow" and "ZZAZZ glitch" as long as the player does not wrong warp?
The current title for the category is "no glitch warps", a better name might be "no memory manipulation." Tricks like ZZAZZ that get a desired result by RAM manipulation are considered part of the heavy glitch abuse category.
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^"No glitched warps" means you are not allowed to warp by means of a glitch (that is, by any means other than Fly, Dig, Teleport, Escape Rope, blacking out or running down the Safari Zone timer). It was renamed from "no memory corruption" when someone pointed out that trainer-fly and other techniques used in the branch were, in fact, a light form of memory corruption themselves, and hence the branch wasn't sticking to its own rules.
Joined: 12/29/2007
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^That someone was me by the way, but I just thought of something: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts8Axz7VrfE That video shows an example of using save corruption to beat the game in 6 minutes without ever using a glitch warp. Wouldn't an optimal "no glitched warps" movie ultimately mean using some sort of heavy memory corruption glitch (ZZAZZ, etc.) to pull off the same thing as in the video above? If so, then since: - "No glitch warps" means that the current "light glitch" movie isn't optimal, and should be replaced with something similar to the above heavily glitched video (which would defeat the branch's purpose) - "No memory corruption" is not the correct name for the current "light glitch" movie What should the branch be ultimately named? The only completely accurate solution I can think of off the top of my head is a completely glitchless one (like the one the Gold run has), but I'm not sure how many people would appreciate something like that.
Patashu
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I think what we REALLY need to do is, as a community, come up with a term that unambiguously means 'You can do small, localized, well defined in scope memory corruption glitches (putting a chuck in your power up, trainer fly, things like that) but you can't do large scale, global, arbitrarily wide scope memory corruption glitches (anything that reads to or writes from many unrelated fields, especially in an arbitrary or many-at-once manner)' so we can concisely describe categories better. It might need to be a new piece of jargon, which is OK if the whole community can agree on what it should be. But I'm kind of tired of the war between 'overly precise, cold and technical descriptions' and 'easier to understand, but not considered technically precise enough' category labels and I wish it would go away with a nice solution.
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
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^I believe the term we have for that is "light glitches"/"light glitching". I wouldn't mind having that term; sure, it's a bit arbitrary, but the main goal of non-Vault movies is entertainment anyway, which is already naturally arbitrary. We already have a few movies published with slightly arbitrary goals such as the SM64 70-star No-BLJ (yet it uses other high speed glitches), and the SMB3 glitchfest movie. I propose naming the branch to "no heavy memory corruption".
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I've noticed this effect of the Blackout-Trainer Fly glitch. If you perform a Blackout Trainer fly when you haven't fought a trainer yet, then a (glitch) trainer identical to the one you performed a trainer fly on. If you have, then a glitch trainer won't pop up and the effects of a trainer fly (except a and start button) will still be present.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
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Patashu wrote:
I think what we REALLY need to do is, as a community, come up with a term that unambiguously means 'You can do small, localized, well defined in scope memory corruption glitches (putting a chuck in your power up, trainer fly, things like that) but you can't do large scale, global, arbitrarily wide scope memory corruption glitches (anything that reads to or writes from many unrelated fields, especially in an arbitrary or many-at-once manner)' so we can concisely describe categories better. It might need to be a new piece of jargon, which is OK if the whole community can agree on what it should be. But I'm kind of tired of the war between 'overly precise, cold and technical descriptions' and 'easier to understand, but not considered technically precise enough' category labels and I wish it would go away with a nice solution.
SDA uses "no large skips", and IIRC they have a larger community than us, so they probably win this one by default. (I'm fine with the name, too.) That's mostly to do with what the effect of the glitch is, though, rather than the way it's set up.
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^What qualifies as a "large skip" as opposed to a "small skip" would be a bit more subjective, I think. Does skipping the entirety of Rock Tunnel, Silph Co., Pokemon Tower, Cinnabar Mansion, the Safari Zone, and Viridian Gym count as several "small skips"? EDIT: Just checked the actual SDA page where Pokemon Red is published; they're marking a movie similar to the "no heavy memory corruption" movie as having "large skips". So based on how they're using that term, it wouldn't cut it here. I'm still supporting "light glitch" vs "heavy glitch".
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Zowayix wrote:
^What qualifies as a "large skip" as opposed to a "small skip" would be a bit more subjective, I think. Does skipping the entirety of Rock Tunnel, Silph Co., Pokemon Tower, Cinnabar Mansion, the Safari Zone, and Viridian Gym count as several "small skips"? EDIT: Just checked the actual SDA page where Pokemon Red is published; they're marking a movie similar to the "no heavy memory corruption" movie as having "large skips". So based on how they're using that term, it wouldn't cut it here. I'm still supporting "light glitch" vs "heavy glitch".
I'd say a large skip is more of an arbitrary thing than anything, because it's hard to define what counts as a small skip than a large skip. I'm in favour of renaming the category to "no heavy memory corruption". btw the run on SDA is outdated, the "official" record is 47:55, which uses the item underflow glitch. Frankly, I'd rather want a glitchless category than this, because there already is a glitched category, and the restrictions on this category seem too arbitrary now because of newly discovered glitches.
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
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luckytyphlosion wrote:
I've noticed this effect of the Blackout-Trainer Fly glitch. If you perform a Blackout Trainer fly when you haven't fought a trainer yet, then a (glitch) trainer identical to the one you performed a trainer fly on. If you have, then a glitch trainer won't pop up and the effects of a trainer fly (except a and start button) will still be present.
That's not exactly correct. The important factor is whether the trainer needs to walk up to you or not. If he does, then you get the usual Trainer-Fly effects (incidentally, using a normal trainer fly the trainer must always walk up to you). If he doesn't, then you can't enter the area again without starting the fight, and if you havn't fought any Pokemon inbetween, you will fight the exact trainer to ran into. The fact that you can walk into a trainer-fly area without triggering the encounter right away is due to the fact that the game thinks you are still in the "trainer walks up to you" sequence. If there is no sequence, it won't work properly. I only learned this by tinkering around with it now. I knew about this kind of trainer-fly when I created my movie, but I found it unusable because it seemed to always start the fight right away, so I couldn't reach the lower floor to encounter a clefairy (which is the first chance of getting the right DVs for Mew). With the new knowledge, it is definitely possible to beat the game already in Mt. Moon, which should be a few minutes of time saved.
Chamale
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The streamer Werster made a new record for the glitchless unassisted speedrun with a time of 1:51. I noticed a little improvement in his run that TASers have been missing for years - the second time in Professor Oak's lab, it's faster to go around Oak and talk to him from above. This takes 4 extra steps, but it saves about half a second because the rival spends less time walking around.
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My currently published TAS uses this strat, I even pointed it out in the submission text. Talking to oak from the side is even faster than from behind, I believe it was 2 frames, but not exactly sure anymore. Also, it saves only about 15 frames compared to talking to Oak from below (3 extra steps, but 2 less steps from the rival). Also, grats to Werster.
Chamale
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MrWint wrote:
My currently published TAS uses this strat, I even pointed it out in the submission text. Talking to oak from the side is even faster than from behind, I believe it was 2 frames, but not exactly sure anymore. Also, it saves only about 15 frames compared to talking to Oak from below (3 extra steps, but 2 less steps from the rival). Also, grats to Werster.
I did a quick test and thought it was a couple frames faster from the top, I guess I was mistaken. I'm having some trouble getting the anomalous text box to work outside of Viridian Forest. I'm trying to pick up the Rare Candy in Mount Moon, as picking it up from a distance would reduce the number of battles Mew needs, but doing the blackout Trainer-Fly in Mount Moon always gives me a start menu.
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Chamale wrote:
I did a quick test and thought it was a couple frames faster from the top, I guess I was mistaken.
Or maybe I was just wrong (it wouldn't be the first time lately (><)), I guess Werster had a reason to believe talking from behind is faster, it needs more extensive tests to be able to tell conclusively. About the text boxes: I'm answering from memory here, and I never seriously looked into that feature of Trainer-Fly, so don't rely on this too heavily, but the way it works is basically that it stores the text box to play when engaging a trainer, to play it when he finally walked up to you (not sure what the address was, but it should be reasonably easy to find it). When trainer-flying, you overwrite the value when fighting other trainers or do stuff like talking to NPCs. After a battle the value is reset to 0, which opens the main menu instead. If you want any specific text box, you would need to manipulate that byte to be the text you want. If you're adventurous, you might even try to get an invalid text ID in to setup arbitrary code execution, but that's just an idea (I might acutally look into some time), it will probably not work that way.
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There's another (minor) way to save a bit of time. By fighting a level 2/3 Pokemon after the rival, you jump from level 6 to 8 after the weedle, and can get ember 1 level earlier. Also, how do correctly activate arbitrary code with the Cooltrainer move, because whenever I try it, it just returns me to the same map. You (MrWint) mentioned that you had to wait 3 seconds to use the move. Is this so the game won't crash, you can execute the arbitrary code or both?
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
Joined: 12/29/2007
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I believe the 3 second delay was to make the in-game timer reach a certain number of minutes. If I recall correctly, proper code execution requires a huge number of values to be exactly correct, including that one (as well as stuff like exactly how much money the player has).
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Correct, the 3 second delay is used in make the in-game time jump from 25 (0x19) min to 26 (0x1A) min. 0x19 is ADD HL,DE, which would corrupt my values, whereas 0x1A is LD A,(DE), which is totally fine. If you look at $DA43, you can see it changes right when the move effect is executed. I can't tell you what is going wrong with your code execution, it could be many things. The easiest way to find out is to look at the assembly that is actually executed (BizHawk's Trace Logger does a nice job), and track down why it doesn't go as expected. You can compare with the trace log I attached to my submission text for reference (though your setup will likely be different, many of the things I did were specific to my setup, like the trainer name).
Chamale
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MrWint wrote:
About the text boxes: I'm answering from memory here, and I never seriously looked into that feature of Trainer-Fly, so don't rely on this too heavily, but the way it works is basically that it stores the text box to play when engaging a trainer, to play it when he finally walked up to you (not sure what the address was, but it should be reasonably easy to find it). When trainer-flying, you overwrite the value when fighting other trainers or do stuff like talking to NPCs. After a battle the value is reset to 0, which opens the main menu instead. If you want any specific text box, you would need to manipulate that byte to be the text you want. If you're adventurous, you might even try to get an invalid text ID in to setup arbitrary code execution, but that's just an idea (I might acutally look into some time), it will probably not work that way.
I did get the game to do something unusual with an invalid text ID, but I'm not sure it can be used for arbitrary code execution. Here is the .bkm file that gets to that point. I'm not sure why the stored text ID isn't working in Mount Moon, but I was able to use it for other dialogue in Viridian Forest. It appears that the anomalous dialogue won't come up even if I return directly to Mount Moon, maybe something is resetting the value to 0 on its own. I'll do some testing and try to find a way to use this bug to pick up a Rare Candy.
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Since the new TAS won't reach RED (Rival) in Cerulean, I've decided to break down the data of the level 9 Metapod. (4th Pokemon of one of the Bug Catchers) Index No. - 7C Current HP value - 00 00 ??? - ?? (It doesn't say on datacrystal) Status Effect - 00 Type 1 - 07 (Bug) Type 2 - 07 (Bug) Catch Rate - 78 Move 1 - 6A (Harden) Move 2 - 00 (None) Move 3 - 00 (None) Move 4 - 00 (None) Trainer ID - 2E 5E Total Experience - 00 01 A3 HP EV - 00 00 Attack EV - 00 00 Defense EV - 00 00 Speed EV - 00 00 Special EV - 00 00 Attack/Defense IV (Combined as one byte) - 98 Speed/Special IV (Combined as one byte) - 88 PP of Move 1 - 1E PP of Move 2 - 00 PP of Move 3 - 00 PP of Move 4 - 00 Level - 09 Total HP - 00 1D Attack - 00 0A Defense - 00 10 Speed - 00 0A Special - 00 0B As raw data: 7C 00 00 ?? 00 07 07 78 6A 00 00 00 2E 5E 00 01 A3 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 98 88 1E 00 00 00 09 00 1D 00 0A 00 10 00 0A 00 0B
Meerkov wrote:
The human element of the run is far more entertaining than the game itself. If it wasn't for someone lying about their record 40 years ago, I don't think we'd take a second look at this run/game. Meh vote.
Joined: 12/29/2007
Posts: 489
Quick question: When categorizing movies by game name (as seen here), Blue (SGB) and Blue (GB) are listed under separate categories. Is this supposed to happen? Why are they not considered the same game, if the ROMs used are presumably identical?