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Posted: 12/28/2009 8:06 PM
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moozooh
Senior Moderator
Joined: 8/4/2005
Posts: 5777
Location: Away
Yeah, that's basically what I'm suggesting.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Posted: 6/27/2010 1:34 AM
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MarbleousDave
He/Him
Player (13)
Joined: 9/12/2009
Posts: 1559
Can you help me in doing the pause glitch by going off track so I can finish the tracks faster?
Posted: 6/28/2010 11:15 AM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
Midiman leaved a file on his post, have you checked it already? For what I remember, he mentioned that you need to have certain speed & press rapidly the pause button, analyzing the file he left should really help you...
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Posted: 8/8/2010 8:36 PM
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FunStyle
Joined: 2/17/2010
Posts: 15
Location: Germany
I try my best on the Track now without Pauseglitch and i have already 4 TAS. One of them is beating Saturn's MC1 TAS Link to video Link to video Link to video I will go on with making TASes there[/url][/video]
-Fun Style- For F Zero and for Fun
Posted: 9/3/2010 2:49 AM
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Anomaly
Joined: 8/15/2010
Posts: 2
I couldn't post before now because of that registration problem, but with all the fuss there was about the recent one track submission I've been wondering something. There is a patch that allows all tracks to be played in practice mode. I know hacks are not normally allowed here, however I think there could be valid reasons to allow this one. For the sake of argument I'll compare what running all the tracks like that might be vs in GP. Disadvantages: 1. No world record times to compare to for the tracks which aren't normally available in practice (because they have cars in GP mode). 2. No opposition cars, which does make it less entertaining. 3. No "ending." (Would that take it out of consideration for publishing right there?) Advantages: 1. Faster times are possible without other cars in the way. 2. Easier to optimize without other cars, so likely would be closer to "perfect." 3. Hex editing would be more possible without other cars, so it would be feasible for more than one person to work on? (I don't know if this is true). The patch does nothing else but let the extra tracks be played. So there's no gameplay changes except for the lack of cars. To be honest I'd rather see a full GP mode run myself. But since it seems unlikely anyone will ever do that, and since no one had mentioned that patch, I figured I'd bring it up.
Posted: 9/3/2010 4:08 AM
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Kitsune
Joined: 4/29/2005
Posts: 1212
Thing is, practice mode would be extremely boring. The grand prix modes are far more fun to watch because of the extra traffic and the other races trying to run your ass off the track. Frankly, watching a Practice Mode TAS of all tracks would put me to sleep.
Posted: 11/13/2010 1:24 AM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4036
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
What if midiman's glitch could be used only for certain levels? I mean using the glitch for Mute City I, but not for Big Blue, and then for Sand Ocean, etc. Could someone make a TAS like that, with the objective being "Uses speed/entertainment tradeoffs"?
Posted: 3/10/2011 1:10 AM
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Bezman
Joined: 2/7/2008
Posts: 185
Obviously, I'm just a bystander. But I feel that it would make much more sense to either say 'avoid pause glitch' or 'uses pause glitch' and then make the fastest run you can within those rules. If you're going to say you use the pause glitch for every 2nd race or whatever, then for those who find the repetition of the glitch annoying, you'll still have ended up irritating them on every odd (or even) race. Maybe their favourite track is 'skipped' - something that would add frustration.
I'm just some random guy. Don't let my words get you riled - I have my opinions but they're only mine.
Posted: 5/26/2011 6:19 AM
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GabCM
He/Him
Joined: 5/5/2009
Posts: 901
Location: QC, Canada
Definately a shortcut to consider when TASing Port Town II.
Posted: 5/26/2011 10:01 AM
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Creatus
Joined: 3/18/2006
Posts: 81
Location: Finland
I think that's already know trick. Although, I haven't followed discussion around F-Zero at all. Anyway, I learned that years ago while playing it with my console. Btw, I think there is two possible places where that "space ship" can take you. And it depends on where you land your jump.
Posted: 5/26/2011 11:09 AM
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Sir_VG
He/Him
Player (40)
Joined: 10/9/2004
Posts: 1913
Location: Floating Tower
Mister Epic wrote:
Definately a shortcut to consider when TASing Port Town II.
Knew about that 20 years ago. :P
Taking over the world, one game at a time. Currently TASing: Nothing
Posted: 3/1/2014 10:40 AM
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Patashu
He/Him
Joined: 10/2/2005
Posts: 4043
F-Zero with no Accelerator Link to video
My Chiptune music, made in Famitracker: http://soundcloud.com/patashu My twitch. I stream mostly shmups & rhythm games http://twitch.tv/patashu My youtube, again shmups and rhythm games and misc stuff: http://youtube.com/user/patashu
Posted: 3/24/2014 11:03 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/13538527443458224 - Lua script for lsnes (fixed something small) I suppose it could be ported easily enough, as I'm not using any lsnes-specific functions. I was making an Expert mode TAS, and did first lap of Mute City I slower than the WR opener. I forgot to save the movie, so I'd have to recreate the end of the TAS with my latest save state. Not that it matters much, since I didn't get such wonderful boosts from Expert GP mode racers early on (my technique for these opening bumps probably wasn't done right anyway). It's probably best to produce verification movie to get SRAM for Master, and TAS that. I don't know how much more aggressive Master is compared to Expert, but presumably it would save another few frames at least, and it's the hardest mode as well. I haven't actually done any hard analysis of the pause glitch, but my first attempts at it failed. I have seen no proof that it will short-circuit GP mode and currently have a weak impression you keep your place even though you skip laps. You can't win races if you're in 9th. 3rd or higher is required in the final lap for a completed race. I will ask for assistance (and will analyze that movie file) in order to confirm or deny just how much it actually shatters GP mode. I have made some other analysis. I'm going to define some terms. Using words I like, anyway. Facing The direction your machine is pointed at. Turning affects this directly. Momentum The direction your machine is actually going. It tends to shift toward your facing. There are 49152 possible directions, as this is the finest precision the game uses. However, the game only uses the upper byte to determine how fast you're going on each axis, which leaves 192 practical values. You can still tweak with the lower byte to make your turns slightly more responsive, as needed. When going straight along either axis, there's actually five possible values of the high-byte to momentum that gives you the maximum speed (128/128) on that axis, so you can move slightly on the other axis without slowing down. I have the speeds of the first 90 degrees tabled in my script, and I use reflection to get at the other 270. Turn & rotational momentum Turn by simply holding left or right on the D-pad. The game keeps a rotational momentum to your machine, which gradually speeds up or slows down over several frames. If your facing and momentum are far enough apart, having non-zero rotational momentum will slow you down. Blast Turn Does not exist, in the F-Zero: Maximum Velocity sense. Not that I've observed so far. Releasing A and pressing it again does not shift your momentum any faster than usual, at least when turning normally anyway. However, releasing A still has a positive effect on turns: The Fire Stingray turns much slower at maximum speed, but at any lower speed, even just one km/h lower, and it gets its full turning speed. Releasing A slows down your machine for exactly that effect. Maybe it exists, but I certainly haven't seen its effect, anyway. Snap Turn As I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere, I'm coining a term for it. For turning right: Frame x+0: Rotational momentum must be zero. Do not press right on the D-pad. Hold R. Frame x+1: Press right on the D-pad. Draw your own conclusions for left turns. Hint: It involves L and left. The Snap Turn instantly sets rotational momentum to maximum from zero, making your turns much more responsive. In other words, hold R before you turn right, and you will notice your machine reacting much quicker than if you tried turning right without R. Drift Holding L or R shifts your momentum to the left or right, but won't shift it past a certain point away from your facing. Does not affect the machine's momentum if there's any non-zero rotational momentum, but it does affect the maximum rotational momentum if you are currently turning. There has been apparent talk that it slows you down. Technically no; All it's doing is shifting your momentum in one direction. If you're driving "diagonal", you're going just as fast, no problem. Still, as it oscillates between a few different values of momentum, it's less of a perfectly straight line and more of a series of really small broken jagged lines. If your momentum is mostly along one axis, you can still keep full speed as these jagged lines all use 128/128 if they stay within one of those five values.
Posted: 4/23/2014 2:29 AM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
User movie #14190878786303873 Cool, I've got a start somewhere. I'm getting a bit of stuff together for a decent "no pause glitch" run, so getting a fast lap should help with the practice. (And to hide the fact that I still don't know how to even get the pause glitch working. Wait! Stop reading my small text!) At the start of the lap, I trigger a boost one frame before actually entering the lap. It's probably common knowledge at this point that you can have three stocked boosts plus one ongoing boost, so this really shouldn't be a surprise. I also shift around a little, intentionally wasting two frames during lap 4 in order to optimize my position and the timer for lap 5. The lap doesn't trigger until my Y position reaches 0x0880, so one frame I'm at 0x087F and the next I'm at 0x0889. As for the timer, it seems to switch between ticking up "01 or "02 every other frame (and apparently take around 66 or 67 frames to tick a full second). For sake of in-game time, I mess around with that detail. Other TASes I'm aware of has done this before, so it isn't really anything new and exciting. Normally, you can't accelerate with your boost until Fire Stingray's speed goes down to 0x900 (2304). If you're on a rail, you can accelerate when the speed reads 0x910 (2320). This is probably due to the fact the rail slows you down by a flat 16 before handling your acceleration related stuff. The rail brakes are interesting. There's a few different patterns of braking I could do, but I like this one: Coast on normal roadway for 15 frames, drive on the rail for 3 frames, brake while on the rail for 4 frames, then accelerate while on the rail for 1 frame. A 23 frame pattern that can repeat 11 times before the boost runs out, letting me accelerate to the high speed one last time. Diagonal rails are not so friendly to this bit of trickery, as it's more like jagged edges rather than a smooth line. Which is to say, as I drive toward the rail, I will experience a few frames of normal roadway and electric rail mixed together. This messes up any plans I have of rail-braking. Normal braking is a little slower, but at least I won't have to worry about losing some distance to tweaking with my direction constantly. Jump plates do not agree with boosts. Limit 0x910 speed, sorry. The "dirt" doesn't actually slow me down any faster while I'm above 0x900 speed, but it does prevent me from accelerating while I'm driving over it, even boosted. However, it does affect my turning rate, so I opt for the rail during the final turn. The electric rail applies a mean friction, but leaves your turning alone.
Posted: 4/24/2014 10:54 AM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4036
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Congratulations on beating the WR fastlap, and glad you're discovering some helpful strategies already! Whenever you're ready to start the run, I'm looking forward to your progress.
Posted: 4/28/2014 5:24 AM
Post subject: Hey, IRC. Fixed a tiny error in my 8-frame brakes text.
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Let's work out a few patterns while boosting with Fire Stingray. When I say "Bonus distance traveled", the units are in 1/256 of a pixel. This is how much additional distance I cover above and beyond what the usual maximum speed would allow during a single cycle of the boost pattern. I provide both hexadecimal and decimal values. I prefer hexadecimal, since I can very neatly line up speed values in my script, and I have no clue how to do so in decimal. 
No brakes
65 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: 0x2080 - 8320
Average speed: 0x0980.00 - 2432.00

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8-9C4-
9C0-9BC-9B8-9B4-9B0-9AC-9A8-9A4-9A0-99C-998-994-990-98C-988-984-
980-97C-978-974-970-96C-968-964-960-95C-958-954-950-94C-948-944-
940-93C-938-934-930-92C-928-924-920-91C-918-914-910-90C-908-904-
900 - Repeat

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504-2500-
2496-2492-2488-2484-2480-2476-2472-2468-2464-2460-2456-2452-2448-2444-2440-2436-
2432-2428-2424-2420-2416-2412-2408-2404-2400-2396-2392-2388-2384-2380-2376-2372-
2368-2364-2360-2356-2352-2348-2344-2340-2336-2332-2328-2324-2320-2316-2312-2308-
2304 - Repeat
This one's purpose is only really any good when at the tail end of your boost, when there isn't time to accelerate again under boost power. Also, there's enough time to go through four of these, then your boost cuts off shortly before you get your fifth. 
8 frame brakes - Begin braking from 0x0970 - 2416
45 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: 0x1C20 - 7200
Average speed: 0x09A0.00 - 2464.00

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8-9C4- Coast
9C0-9BC-9B8-9B4-9B0-9AC-9A8-9A4-9A0-99C-998-994-990-98C-988-984- Coast
980-97C-978-974- Coast
970-962-954-946-938-92A-91C-90E- Brake
900- Accelerate (Repeat)

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504-2500- Coast
2496-2492-2488-2484-2480-2476-2472-2468-2464-2460-2456-2452-2448-2444-2440-2436- Coast
2432-2428-2424-2420- Coast
2416-2402-2388-2374-2360-2346-2332-2318- Brake
2304- Accelerate (Repeat)
A lot better than simply coasting your way down, as you get rid of most of the slow half of the boost cycle in favor of a faster cycle with more of the high speed intact. Brakes reduce speed at 0xE or 14 per frame when you're traveling somewhere between 0x900 (2304) and 0x97F (2431), and reduce it at 0x0F or 15 at higher speeds (for most practical sorts of speed to brake at, anyway). If I were to brake for two more frames, they'd be reducing speed at the 0xF or 15 rate for one frame, leaving my speed at 0x8FF or 2303 before I can accelerate to 0x9FF or 2559, which leaves me traveling slower for the next cycle. 
11 frame brakes - Brake at 0x099C - 2460
37 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: 0x17EF - 6127
Average speed: 0x09A5.98 - 2469.59

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8-9C4- Coast
9C0-9BC-9B8-9B4-9B0-9AC-9A8-9A4-9A0- Coast
99C-98D-97E-970-962-954-946-938-92A-91C-90E- Brake
900- Accelerate (Repeat)

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504-2500- Coast
2496-2492-2488-2484-2480-2476-2472-2468-2464- Coast
2460-2445-2430-2416-2402-2388-2374-2360-2346-2332-2318- Brake
2304- Accelerate (Repeat)
The best way to remove the slow half of your speed without handy rails. In order to make up for the fact you can only decelerate at 0xE for one more frame, we decelerate 0xF for two frames in order to line up our speed to accelerate optimally. 
12 frame brakes - Brake at 0x09B0 (2480), with one frame coast gap
34 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: - 0x15DA - 5594
Average speed: 0x09A4.87 - 2468.53

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8-9C4- Coast
9C0-9BC-9B8-9B4- Coast
9B0-9A1-992-983- Brake
974- Coast
970-962-954-946-938-92A-91C-90E- Brake
900- Accelerate (Repeat)

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504-2500- Coast
2496-2492-2488-2484- Coast
2480-2465-2450-2435- Brake
2420- Coast
2416-2402-2388-2374-2360-2346-2332-2318- Brake
2304- Accelerate (Repeat)
Minimally slower than the 11-frame brake's average, but intentionally inserts one coasting frame in the middle of braking in order to avoid nasty stuff with speed no longer lining up cleanly at 0x0900 (2304) exact. However, this does allow a way to tweak with the exact timing in case the course goes through certain twists and turns where the difference in timing is critical. 
R2RB4 - Rail 2 frames, Rail Brake 4 frames
27 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: 0x13D0 - 5072
Average speed: 0x09BB.DA - 2491.85

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8-9C4- Coast
9C0-9BC-9B8-9B4- Coast
9B0-99C- Coast on rail
988-96A-94C-92E- Brake on rail
910- Accelerate on rail (Repeat)

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504-2500- Coast
2496-2492-2488-2484- Coast
2480-2460- Coast on rail
2440-2410-2380-2350- Brake on rail
2320- Accelerate on rail (Repeat)
This is a very fast pattern. It works because the rail slows you down by 0x10 (16) before applying your acceleration or brakes. So braking at 0x988 slows me down by 0xE rather than 0xF, which helps to align my speed nicely. Then I can accelerate at 0x910 rather than going all the way to 0x900. I love these rails! 
R3RB4 - Rail 3 frames, Rail Brake 4 frames
23 frame cycle
Bonus distance traveled: 0x10E8 - 4328
Average speed: 0x09BC.2D - 2492.17

A00-9FC-9F8-9F4-9F0-9EC-9E8-9E4-9E0-9DC-9D8-9D4-9D0-9CC-9C8- Coast
9C4-9B0-99C- Coast on rail
988-96A-94C-92E- Brake on rail
910- Accelerate on rail (Repeat)

2560-2556-2552-2548-2544-2540-2536-2532-2528-2524-2520-2516-2512-2508-2504- Coast
2500-2480-2460- Coast on rail
2440-2410-2380-2350- Brake on rail
2320- Accelerate on rail (Repeat)
The fastest pattern, though the R2RB4 is only barely slower. There's room for 11 of these on a single boost, with only two spare frames after 11 cycles. You can bet this cycle is used very often whenever I'm boosting on straightaways. Specifically any of those that go straight vertical or horizontal, as the diagonal ones have a jagged edge for the rail, interfering with this pattern. During a boost, the accelerator is useless for maintaining speed, so you only need to press it for one frame in order to accelerate. If you're not turning, and the accelerator is off, your momentum stays constant, whatever direction you happen to face. This little detail gives a lot of control when it comes to dealing with the rail in order to move into it and back off of it at exactly the right times. Without that, this cycle would be very difficult to pull off consistently even in TAS conditions. Now, here's the fastest sets put together: 6x R2RB4 4x R3RB4 1x No Brakes Total bonus distance: 56064 Base speed: 2304 Frames needed for base speed to cover this distance: 24.33 Number of seconds by in-game clock: 0.365 seconds More time than that should be saved due to taking corners more sharply, where going over the dirt or rail would otherwise ruin your speed and impact your time worse than what you'd have saved.
Posted: 5/31/2015 2:29 AM
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paosidufygth
Player (91)
Joined: 11/13/2014
Posts: 35
I beat f zero: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1815866651/F-Zero%20%28U%29.smv
Posted: 5/31/2015 3:47 AM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
First I was happy to see a post on this topic and even with a movie included. Unfortunately, I'm not that fond of certain type of glitches in some games, and I was hoping this was going to be a normal run of the first cup, but it wasn't. (When I just ran the file, I though it desynched because you missed that bump, until you went 180º and then realized this run was going to use the pause glitch to skip laps) Well, it's nice to have a TAS that completes all levels, but it seems to me like it's not that optimized, at least not when you have to do a normal lap (Sand Ocean time is really bad in comparison with the WR). Also, why was Sand Ocean the only track that never skipped a lap? Is it impossible or wastes to much energy trying to pull it?
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Posted: 5/31/2015 1:44 PM
Quote
paosidufygth
Player (91)
Joined: 11/13/2014
Posts: 35
samurai goroh wrote:
First I was happy to see a post on this topic and even with a movie included. Unfortunately, I'm not that fond of certain type of glitches in some games, and I was hoping this was going to be a normal run of the first cup, but it wasn't. (When I just ran the file, I though it desynched because you missed that bump, until you went 180º and then realized this run was going to use the pause glitch to skip laps) Well, it's nice to have a TAS that completes all levels, but it seems to me like it's not that optimized, at least not when you have to do a normal lap (Sand Ocean time is really bad in comparison with the WR). Also, why was Sand Ocean the only track that never skipped a lap? Is it impossible or wastes to much energy trying to pull it?
It won't work on that track. It pulls me to the other side of the track when I stop pausing. That and White Land II are the two tracks that had to be played through. Also, I kind of rushed through some of Sand Ocean when I played it (same with White Land II). I might do an actual speedrun of this game someday.
Posted: 5/31/2015 3:44 PM
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jlun2
Skilled player (1741)
Joined: 9/17/2009
Posts: 4981
Location: ̶C̶a̶n̶a̶d̶a̶ "Kanatah"
GBA TASer of 2010
For those against pausing, since there's 2 tiers, technically one could make 2 movies for 2 different tiers. One without pausing (if its entertaining enough) and the other with anything goes. :P
LLCoolDave wrote:
This seems to be competing for the "Worst looking TAS of 2011" Award.
Posted: 5/31/2015 6:17 PM
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FatRatKnight
Editor, Skilled player (1202)
Joined: 9/27/2008
Posts: 1085
Ah, so this pause trick can break GP mode. I was previously under the impression that you keep your rank in the race. Seems you are placed ahead of any CPU that is still loaded when you cut laps. If the pause run is to be made, it seems pointless to first unlock Master with a verification movie for it. The run itself is apparently low effort, using an obsolete emulator as well, but we have a pretty good starting point. Think this can be optimized using lsnes or BizHawk? In any case, now I know a little more about this trick.
Posted: 6/4/2015 6:59 AM
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CoolKirby
Editor, Experienced player (570)
Joined: 11/8/2010
Posts: 4036
Exotic platforms TASer of 2014 NES TAS of 2013
Been waiting to see a full run using the pause glitch! And it'll be even better once it's optimized.
Posted: 6/23/2015 12:17 AM
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paosidufygth
Player (91)
Joined: 11/13/2014
Posts: 35
I beat Knight League: http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1359535169/F-Zero%20%28U%29-knightleague.smv
Posted: 6/23/2015 4:19 AM
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samurai_goroh
Editor, Player (54)
Joined: 12/25/2004
Posts: 634
Location: Aguascalientes, Mexico
That's quite a nice TAS you got there paosidufygth beating the WRs, well done :D I'm a bit curious, was bumping into 3 cars better than just 2? I saw you beat the 1st lap in the WRs (no clue about opener record, just the 1st lap made in the WR) in most of them but not all, but maybe that's just so that you have a better 2nd lap I would think... I don't know what path does the WR takes in Sand Ocean, but I have to say it was interesting seeing you bumping into the enemy cars while turning. Also, were you working on this project for long time ago, or why use that version of Snes9x (I ran it on 1.43 v17)?
I'm the best in the Universe! Remember that!
Posted: 6/23/2015 4:11 PM
Quote
paosidufygth
Player (91)
Joined: 11/13/2014
Posts: 35
For the starting lap I finally made it bump into the far right car which I thought couldn't be done. Better starting speed was obtained then I made a sharp turn to bump into the second car. I only recently started working on this project. I used Snes9x because I like that emulator better (it has less slow down than BizHawk).
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