Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Dyshonest wrote:
It just feels very arbitrary to have both there when they both skip levels via memory corruption...
...My example before still stands - it boils down to "well this run skips stuff too. It just doesn't skip as much!"
But no levels are skipped in the SMW warps run. None. Not a single required level is skipped. Parts of levels are skipped using glitches, sure, but the run doesn't actively use memory corruption to outright pass over levels.
If a run were submitted that, say, uses memory corruption to skip YI4 and only YI4, as in actually going straight from YI3 to Iggy's Castle, then that would be more fitting of what you're saying. It'd skip something, but not everything it possibly could. If it were that, then I could understand the argument. But the currently published warps run just uses a glitch to beat a level a lot faster.
Now, if both memory corruption glitches required the exact same setup then it might be more of a gray area, but as far as I can tell it's two different setups with the only thing in common between them being Yoshi. If eating a Chuck could either give you an orb in the item box OR crash the game to open bus or whatever and allow you to edit the game, then your argument would make sense because that would actually be the same glitch. But it's not the same glitch.
You say it's "hyperbole" for us to think your argument could extend to many other runs, but is it really? Even your ALttP example doesn't involve memory corruption... Actually, I could argue that under your definition, the all dungeons run would be obsoleted in favor of the glitched run because both runs use multi-directional input. One just uses it to skip most of the game and the other uses it to go faster. Two different applications of what could be considered the same glitch.
Plus, it's a loaded example to begin with. If ACE were found for ALttP and a run was made that was shorter than the current glitched run, then it would be published and obsolete the current glitched run given that there would be absolutely no reason to have a separate glitched category. Even Super Metroid with its thousands of categories (there's some actual hyperbole) has only one glitched run now.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
But no levels are skipped in the SMW warps run. None. Not a single required level is skipped. Parts of levels are skipped using glitches, sure, but the run doesn't actively use memory corruption to outright pass over levels.
Nothing is skipped---wait...
But the currently published warps run just uses a glitch to beat a level a lot faster.
No, it skips the level via an item that, apparently, relies on ACE/some form of it (Open bus or something?) according to Masterjun.
You might want to read what you post before hitting Reply in the future. One sentence you're saying it skips nothing but then you acknowledge that it DOES skip things but "not an entire stage".
You say it's "hyperbole" for us to think your argument could extend to many other runs, but is it really? Even your ALttP example doesn't involve memory corruption... Actually, I could argue that under your definition, the all dungeons run would be obsoleted in favor of the glitched run because both runs use multi-directional input. One just uses it to skip most of the game and the other uses it to go faster. Two different applications of what could be considered the same glitch.
I said your post (I assume it was you?) and Eszik both used hyperbole, yes. Do you know what hyperbole actually means?
I never said the ALttP example involved memory corruption, could you show me where I did...? Using it to go out-of-bounds and using it to gain a miniscule time boost when walking in straight directions are pretty different. Using your newly-made hyperbole example the X-Ray in Super Metroid should be banned in speedruns because it could lead to ACE/memory corruption.
Plus, it's a loaded example to begin with. If ACE were found for ALttP and a run was made that was shorter than the current glitched run
Except for the fact that we now have a precedent that runs using less efficient forms of the same glitch (both Mega Man runs), or glitch-form (ACE in particular. See: Pokemon Yellow and then the Red/Blue one that also ends the game via ACE, it just reaches ACE in a slower, different manner) may be published side-by-side.
Orb glitch has nothing to do with ACE. Another form of the item-swap glitch, called the cloud glitch, can lead to ACE. But getting the orb doesn't require ACE, and can't lead to ACE.
I problably made mistakes, sorry for my bad English, I'm French :v
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Dyshonest wrote:
No, it skips the level via an item that, apparently, relies on ACE/some form of it (Open bus or something?) according to Masterjun.
You don't even know what you're talking about. ACE injects new Arbitrary Code into the game and Executes it. Orb glitch is eating a fucking enemy with Yoshi. It can be done on console in real time by a human being with a stock controller, likely with 100% consistency. Even if it counts as memory corruption in terms of the coding and the game, orb glitch shouldn't be considered the same as ACE.
You might want to read what you post before hitting Reply in the future. One sentence you're saying it skips nothing but then you acknowledge that it DOES skip things but "not an entire stage".
I said it didn't skip any levels, and it doesn't. It skips parts of levels, but not the entirety of levels. Every level is entered and played in some way. That's not skipping levels. Learn to read.
Let me explain it again. The SMW warps run takes the intended warp route through the game. Every stage is played and finished. The 12-minute Mega Man run does the same thing. It takes a route through the game, plays and finishes every stage. The point of a speedrun is to finish stages as fast as possible, and those runs do it faster than any before them. Skipping a stage would require bypassing it without ever entering it.
Let's take your logic to another hyperbolic level, since you're practically in love with that fucking word: In Super Mario Bros speedruns, the pipe in 1-1 is taken because it's faster to do so. The stage is finished faster than normally intended that way. Sure, it's not the result of a glitch, but it does "skip" part of the stage. By your logic, that means the entirety of Stage 1-1 is skipped. By your logic, ANY game with a shortcut through any level means the entire level is skipped, whether it's a glitch or not.
I never said the ALttP example involved memory corruption, could you show me where I did...? Using it to go out-of-bounds and using it to gain a miniscule time boost when walking in straight directions are pretty different.
And I never said you said that. Could you show me where I did? I was pointing out that your comparison doesn't make sense because SMW deals with memory corruption and ALttP doesn't. Why bother bringing it up in the first place when they don't even compare? Hell, I actually GAVE it a little bit of credence by pointing out that both ALttP runs use pretty much the same exact glitch to different effect. It's more of a credible example of your argument than the SMW runs are.
Assuming your argument is "the SMW warps run should be obsoleted because it doesn't use memory corruption to its full potential, as seen in the ACE run", then someone else could just as easily say "the ALttP all dungeons run should be obsoleted because it doesn't use multi-directional input to its full potential, as seen in the glitched run".
Using your newly-made hyperbole example the X-Ray in Super Metroid should be banned in speedruns because it could lead to ACE/memory corruption.
What the fuck kind of point are you trying to make here? What hyperbole example? The only hyperbole I used was saying that Super Metroid has a lot of published categories, which it does, and only one of them is a glitched category. How does that lead to what you said? How does anything I said in that post lead to what you said?
Okay, let's go along with it for a moment. Is there any reason to get X-Ray in a non-100% or glitched run? Most likely not. The only two reasons you'd get it are to abuse its ACE potential and so it counts toward 100% completion. So, well, yeah, an item normally useless to speedrunners and speedruns should probably be banned because it wastes time to pick up and doesn't add any serious benefit unless you were specifically corrupting memory with it.
Seriously, did I misunderstand something here?
Except for the fact that we now have a precedent that runs using less efficient forms of the same glitch (both Mega Man runs), or glitch-form (ACE in particular. See: Pokemon Yellow and then the Red/Blue one that also ends the game via ACE, it just reaches ACE in a slower, different manner) may be published side-by-side.
Okay. You recognize we have a precedent for it, and I feel like no matter how much I try to explain you won't understand that we NEED that precedent, so I'm not going to bother.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
@Masterjun: How long before your next /ragequit? :)
You don't even know what you're talking about. ACE injects new Arbitrary Code into the game and Executes it. Orb glitch is eating a fucking enemy with Yoshi. It can be done on console in real time by a human being with a stock controller, likely with 100% consistency. Even if it counts as memory corruption in terms of the coding and the game, orb glitch shouldn't be considered the same as ACE.
It is more complicated than that and you know it. That isn't going to happen unless parts of the memory get extensively corrupted because things that shouldn't be happening are.
Memory corruption is memory corruption is memory corruption and so forth. What part of this are you failing to grasp? How many runs featuring memory corruption to skip segments of the game are necessary? If one uses it to skip a stage/several, then another uses it to skip the entire game, why isn't the former obsoleted by the latter?
In Super Mario Bros speedruns, the pipe in 1-1 is taken because it's faster to do so. The stage is finished faster than normally intended that way. Sure, it's not the result of a glitch, but it does "skip" part of the stage. By your logic, that means the entirety of Stage 1-1 is skipped. By your logic, ANY game with a shortcut through any level means the entire level is skipped, whether it's a glitch or not.
ITT: We have no idea what we're talking about.
Let me explain it again. The SMW warps run takes the intended warp route through the game. Every stage is played and finished. The 12-minute Mega Man run does the same thing. It takes a route through the game, plays and finishes every stage. The point of a speedrun is to finish stages as fast as possible, and those runs do it faster than any before them. Skipping a stage would require bypassing it without ever entering it.
ITT: Entering two stages, skipping them entirely beyond the first screen or two, then entering another and skipping the last half is playing through the game fully without skipping anything.
And I never said you said that. Could you show me where I did?
Gladly!
"You say it's "hyperbole" for us to think your argument could extend to many other runs, but is it really? Even your ALttP example doesn't involve memory corruption..."
This implies that, at some point, it was claimed either of the ALttP runs used it, the claim being by either you or me. Had no one implied this previously that sentence would make no sense. Which no one did, thus it makes no sense.
So, well, yeah, an item normally useless to speedrunners and speedruns should probably be banned because it wastes time to pick up and doesn't add any serious benefit unless you were specifically corrupting memory with it.
Might as well ban emulators and D-Pads in general in fear of multidirectional glitches. </sarcasm>
Okay. You recognize we have a precedent for it, and I feel like no matter how much I try to explain you won't understand that we NEED that precedent, so I'm not going to bother.
Except for the fact that the precedent is pointless and just encourages redundancy. You don't seem to understand that very precedent should have allowed Masterjun's April 1st submission to have been accepted...
tl;dr:
Both runs use extensive memory corruption to either skip parts of the game or skip the entire game.
Both runs coexist.
Why?
I can't wait for some more nonsensical, hyperbole-fueled ad hominem from you two again. Love you. :D
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Dyshonest wrote:
I can't wait for some more nonsensical, hyperbole-fueled ad hominem from you two again. Love you. :D
"If I throw out all these argument terms I learned from Wikipedia's list of logical fallacies, it'll make me sound smarter!"
It is more complicated than that and you know it.
Oh no, my limited knowledge on the code of a game I don't TAS has been discovered!
If one uses it to skip a stage/several, then another uses it to skip the entire game, why isn't the former obsoleted by the latter?
It is. You're just retarded and don't understand that skipping part of a stage doesn't mean skipping a stage.
ITT: We have no idea what we're talking about.
Correction: You have no idea what you're talking about.
ITT: Entering two stages, skipping them entirely beyond the first screen or two, then entering another and skipping the last half is playing through the game fully without skipping anything.
ITT: Completely misinterpreting my words, as usual.
This implies
Ah, ah, ah! There's your key word. Implication doesn't necessarily mean fact. It means you have such a weak argument that you have to resort to pointing out implications.
Might as well ban emulators and D-Pads in general in fear of multidirectional glitches. </sarcasm>
Do you get off on taking everything to an illogical extreme? Christ, you might as well be an inflation fetishist or something.
Except for the fact that the precedent is pointless and just encourages redundancy.
Ah yes, the redundancy of a run that's 9 minutes longer and shows off 10 more stages. It's nowhere even close to the most redundant run on the site.
Both runs use extensive memory corruption to either skip parts of the game or skip the entire game.
Both runs coexist.
Why?
To spite you, personally.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
"If I throw out all these argument terms I learned from Wikipedia's list of logical fallacies, it'll make me sound smarter!"
I'll use more simple terms for you. A personal attack. An insult.
Hyperbole? An exaggeratory, intentionally false argument.
I actually know what I'm talking about unlike you. I don't have to resort to calling a person retarded or proceeding to foam at the mouth by (repetitively) using curse words. I am pretty sure you need to calm down, because you appear to be at the edge of your seat screaming at the monitor.
Maybe take a walk outside? Maybe try paying attention in school? People can know things regarding arguments, debates and general logic-related matters without looking it up on Wikipedia or something. Or do they not have schooling where you are and Wikipedia is what you've used?
Oh no, my limited knowledge on the code of a game I don't TAS has been discovered!
What were you replying to?
and don't understand that skipping part of a stage doesn't mean skipping a stage.
ITT: Doing nothing meaningful and skipping 99% of a stage = not skipping a stage. Also, nice insults.
Do you get off on taking everything to an illogical extreme? Christ, you might as well be an inflation fetishist or something.
ITT: We don't like it when other people use our own logic or lack thereof against us.
Do you have any constructive to say or is it going to be more "U RETURD HURR" as usual? Zzz.
There you go using that word which no one else agrees with you on again.
Samsara wrote:
ITT: We have no idea what we're talking about.
Correction: You have no idea what you're talking about.
Correction: Everyone has no idea what Dyshonest is talking about.
Masterjun wrote:
I don't get it, please explain.
An 8 is to signify it isn't a high 9.
GOD!!! WHAT THE HELL IS WITH YOU ALL!!!!!ALL HE WANTS TO F**KEN KNOW IS WHY THERE ARE TWO ANY% SUPER MARIO WORLD RUNS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
feos wrote:
Dyshonest: what exactly are you trying to say? That each minority's opinion must be forced in the face of the majority?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Dyshonest wrote:
I don't have to resort to calling a person retarded or proceeding to foam at the mouth by (repetitively) using curse words. I am pretty sure you need to calm down, because you appear to be at the edge of your seat screaming at the monitor.
You said you were looking forward to more hyperbolic ad hominem, I was just giving you what you wanted. Also, since when was swearing considered an act of rage? It's how I talk. It's how everyone I know in real life talks. If you wanna picture me frothing at the mouth and screaming at my monitor, go right ahead. Whatever you need to boost your fragile little ego.
I see you're at the "feigning superiority" stage of internet arguments, so I think next you're either gonna claim you have better things to do in real life and leave us with a final "I'm done toying with you kids :)" or you're gonna backpedal and say you were trolling this entire time in a vague effort to save your self-esteem. Just get to that point and stop wasting everyone's time.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
>>I was just giving you what you wanted
>>so I think next you're either gonna...
you just gave him the opportunity to feel smugly superior when he uses your own words back at you and then calls you a child.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
jimsfriend wrote:
>>I was just giving you what you wanted
>>so I think next you're either gonna...
you just gave him the opportunity to feel smugly superior when he uses your own words back at you and then calls you a child.
You mean he wasn't feeling smugly superior throughout this whole argument?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
You said you were looking forward to more hyperbolic ad hominem, I was just giving you what you wanted. Also, since when was swearing considered an act of rage? It's how I talk. It's how everyone I know in real life talks. If you wanna picture me frothing at the mouth and screaming at my monitor, go right ahead. Whatever you need to boost your fragile little ego.
You have Tourette's if you have to randomly proclaim how "fucking retarded" something/someone is and you aren't even angry, lol.
I see you're at the "feigning superiority" stage of internet arguments
The thing you've been at for... the whole time? You accepted your inferiority when you had to resort to personal attacks and exaggerated arguments instead of proving a person wrong lol.
You mean he wasn't feeling smugly superior throughout this whole argument?
Well it's hard to not be superior to someone who is so low that they have to resort to petty insults and poor arguing tactics to "prove the other person wrong" all-the-while defeating their own poorly constructed "point".
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Trap sprung.
You've been focusing on me throughout this whole discussion, you haven't said a word to anyone else since I started actually trying to prove you wrong. I've done that multiple times, and multiple people (everyone else in this thread) have been backing that up. The only things you've said to other people are making offhand comments that repeat the same things you've been saying in your previous posts. You don't have an argument. You know you don't have an argument. You've ignored every point, "disproved" everything we've been trying to say by just repeating yourself, and you're still attempting to claim victory and superiority even though you're still the only person arguing for your side.
The moment I stopped actually trying to argue my point and started "resorting to ad hominem" is when your smug superiority really started to show through, which is exactly what I was going for. It's the main sign of someone who knows they don't have an argument: They look for any excuse to feel like they have the upper hand. You're trying to make an example out of me, distracting people from what you were saying earlier in an attempt to get them to ally with you against me.
That post is just the icing on the cake, really. You've stopped even trying to argue your point even though other people are still asking you about it. Your entire focus has shifted to me and how much you want to feel superior to me.
"You have Tourette's"
"You accepted your inferiority"
"It's not hard to BE superior to someone who is so low"
In trying to take the so-called high ground, you're only making yourself look worse. You say I have to resort to petty insults and poor arguing tactics, but look at yourself right now and you're literally doing the same thing. You've forgotten all about the argument at hand in order to take some more shots at me. If you actually wanted the moral high ground, you would've just ignored me when I started the personal attacks and focused on the people actually bringing up points about the matter at hand. That could've actually worked.
Oh, something else that could've actually worked is if you listened to any of the points people said instead of pointing out arbitrary things like bad wording and implications, and if you stopped calling everything a hyperbole. It really does make it sound like you just learned that word and can't wait to tell everyone about it.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2822
Location: Northern California
Dyshonest wrote:
You have Tourette's
Oh, right, I almost forgot. Coprolalia (compulsive swearing) isn't necessarily Tourette's. Tourette's is more of a blanket term for any compulsive motor tic (twitching, rapid blinking, muscle spasms, etc) or verbal tic (such as noise-making), which can include coprolalia but is actually quite uncommon among Tourette's sufferers.
That's not related to any of the matters at hand, it's just a pet peeve of mine when people use offensive psychological colloquialisms like that.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
Let's take a stab at explaining this clearly once and for all:
Skipping an entire level means that the level is not at all played, think of NES Super Mario Bros. where the warp in 1-2 means you don't have to play 1-3 etc, that is skipping an entire level. Using the Orb glitch in SMW causes a slight RAM corruption making the game think you entered a goal-gate, so the level ends early. Which means at best: MOST of the level was skipped.
The orb glitch here only causes slight RAM corruption, nothing that lets you perform an ACE since it doesn't affect areas of RAM that can lead to it.
The cloud glitch causes a whole different type of RAM corruption, one that causes the games execution to jump into the open bus memory address map. Here manipulation is done to control the values in the bus so when the game reaches it, it reads the bus data as instructions and jumps into the game completed routine because that is what the game was told to do.
So, in conclusion: Only SOME types of RAM corruption can LEAD to ACE. It is 100% dependent on what values in RAM that become corrupted.
(I hope I got this right, I am not deeply rooted in SMW)
Regardless of the ruling, I would like to see a TAS using the cloud in the inventory for the sake of interest. I think the Bowser fight could be pretty cool, as well as the several changes resulting from route change.
Basically, what I'm in favor for here is a run utilizing ACE: http://tasvideos.org/4315S.html and one that doesn't utilize it.
What I'm saying is, there should be a run that fully utilizes ACE (published already), but there should also be a run that is the fastest completion of the game which doesn't utilize it. Is getting the cloud really utilizing ACE (if you're not reprogramming the game afterward?)
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
I had a proper reply for whats-his-face earlier but when his entire post is five paragraphs of a deus-ex-machina "I KNEW IT ALL ALONG"... yeah...
Warepire wrote:
Let's take a stab at explaining this clearly once and for all:
Skipping an entire level means that the level is not at all played, think of NES Super Mario Bros. where the warp in 1-2 means you don't have to play 1-3 etc, that is skipping an entire level. Using the Orb glitch in SMW causes a slight RAM corruption making the game think you entered a goal-gate, so the level ends early. Which means at best: MOST of the level was skipped.
The orb glitch here only causes slight RAM corruption, nothing that lets you perform an ACE since it doesn't affect areas of RAM that can lead to it.
The cloud glitch causes a whole different type of RAM corruption, one that causes the games execution to jump into the open bus memory address map. Here manipulation is done to control the values in the bus so when the game reaches it, it reads the bus data as instructions and jumps into the game completed routine because that is what the game was told to do.
So, in conclusion: Only SOME types of RAM corruption can LEAD to ACE. It is 100% dependent on what values in RAM that become corrupted.
(I hope I got this right, I am not deeply rooted in SMW)
Sounds about right, but again, you're still basically deciding that [x] glitch/variant of [x] glitch is okay because it doesn't skip as much. as [y] glitch.
Joined: 3/2/2010
Posts: 2178
Location: A little to the left of nowhere (Sweden)
In case of the Orb glitch you only change values the game uses to keep track of states within the level.
In case of the Cloud glitch you substitute some of the games code with your own in order to call the game-end routine prematurely.
I think it makes sense to split categories between runs that doesn't re-program parts of the game, and those that do.
Then you get bizarre instances like a "What if ALttP had ACE...?". Does the 2-minute run we have exist alongside the ACE one if the latter was faster?
In the case of the Mega Man run, it is very obvious that both utilize some form of ACE. The game never returns to proper function after the stages are skipped utilizing its method. According to Masterjun, runs that activate ACE don't return to proper function.
(this ignores the fact that it also utilizes the same glitch that leads to ACE, it's just a different result I guess due to different items/enemies or something.)
Dyshonest, There's skipping to the credits and there is the fastest possible time without doing so. Just because they utilize the same glitch method is meaningless. If you can skip every single stage with the glitch, do it. If it's the fastest method through the game. My only objection is when it comes to ACE, memory corruption, and the like is that this substantially changes the game mechanic and in some sense, you aren't really "beating" the game in some sense.
Reaching the credits seems meaningless in some ways. You "beat" the game. When I think beating a game, I think reaching the end, killing the boss, end of input:
Mario 1 = Hitting the axe
Mario 2 = Entering final door
Mario 3 = Entering final door
SMW = last hit on Bowser
The means to bring the game to the credits is what a completion of a game is (typically reaching a point or final hit on boss)
This is why having 100% is important, because many times the any% run becomes too glitched. Even if you could warp straight from the intro to Bowser, it would still make for an interesting run. The only problem is that at some point, if the times are too similar, the category is redundant. This is when there should probably be a category which excludes said glitch.
EDIT: In this case, I don't think so: the times are several minutes apart.
Super Mario Bros. console speedrunner
- Andrew Gardikis
