Post subject: Crowd Funded TASing?
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Hello, not sure whether to post this in here or in /General/, I'm just wondering if anyone has ever thought about using crowd funding to "finance" the making of a TAS? To clarify what I mean by this, it seems like crowd funding sites like Kickstarter are typically used to generate funds to create a product that will eventually be sold. A TAS is obviously a little different, in that it's not so much a product as a piece of art that will (presumably) be released to the public domain free of charge. There's also virtually no financial costs involved as the software for TASing is all free; the only cost is the time required to make it. Personally, I'm 28 years old, and I feel like my need to have a job and pay the bills drastically cuts down on the amount of time I have available to spend on TASing. And TASing can be a very time consuming process depending on the game/goal. So, hypothetically, rather than asking for backers to provide funds for compiling materials or resources to make a product, which aren't really needed to create a TAS, I would instead be asking backers for funds to help cover some of my living expenses; so that I could spend less time working for rich people, and more time working on my TASing projects. I could see how some people might take the position of saying, "well, you just don't want to work, stop being lazy, etc." But TASing, like having a full time job or two part time jobs, really does take a lot of time and mental energy to do well and doesn't leave much of either of those things left over for devoting to other tasks. For me, the difference between working, say, 40 hours a week vs 20 hours a week could mean the difference between TASing for 8 hours a day once on the weekend vs TASing 4 hours a day, 5 days a week, plus additional time on the weekend. If people want the content enough and are willing to pay to have it delivered to them faster, I could see a crowd funding scenario working out. In my mind the main problem would be reaching a broad enough audience to actually meet funding goals, considering how niche and esoteric a subject matter TASing currently is; like, I imagine most people who don't already know, wouldn't understand or care enough to donate. What do you guys think of this? Has it ever been attempted before, and if so how did it work out?
Knuckles does, what Sonican't.
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I could see there being people out there that would pay to have a certain TAS completed(there is always people willing to spend a few bucks).. However I feel as though someone would never achieve enough money to make it a full time job(as you and the consumers would have no real reliable way of knowing how long the TAS would take or how many times over you would have to start or worse off if you had to start rushing to reach a deadline. I feel like it could be taken advantage of by a lot of people trying to get funding just to be lazy(similar to the indie devs on kickstarter that just used rpg creator).
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Two things I can say right now: - People may produce suboptimal TASes when they're offered money. They may not go back and redo a thousand frames in order to save 2 milliseconds but may aim to complete the TAS as fast as they can. I also have learned that you will never make enough money to justify not taking an actual job. Money you can make off of a Youtube partnership isn't worth noting (unless you're Swordlesslink and have videos with 1 million views). And I have never seen people donate notable amounts of money for the production of a TAS. I have also learned that money makes people crazy and jealous. It may be for the better to just ignore it and keep doing TASes just for fun and when it's not feeling like a chore. - This topic may be related http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9107&highlight=
ALAKTORN
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Man, throwing money at me would be a perfect way to make me stop slaking and actually finish one of my runs. If only.
Dimon12321
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I was watching this site by the start of 2014 and noticed that TASVideos going Pro: a way to increase betted money for a star (I think it's close to star) movie, but I don't know how much people would become members and would they watch as incredible movies as they expect! I'm not an experienced TASer yet, but I can't TASing games more than 4 hours a day because it strongly affects the psyche and becomes very tedious hobby. solarplex is right! There are only 500-800 users of 6 or 7 thousand which are active today and most of them make TASes just for fun, and Webnation's (~50000) and TASVideosChannel's (~18000) subscribers are 95% out audience!
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
ars4326
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Dimon12321 wrote:
I was watching this site by the start of 2014 and noticed that TASVideos going Pro..."
Dimon, the TASVideos Pro thing was actually a gag that occurred during April 1st on here (a holiday where people play practical jokes). It wasn't a serious plan. Anyhow, I've always thought that an idea could work that would involve elements of both a fundraiser and a bounty. Say, that someone (or a group of people) donates money toward a specific desired project in advance, with the winner receiving that money once they submit a run that satisfies the agreed upon conditions. TASvideos could be the "neutral account" that would hold the funds until a runner completes said run (whenever that would be). In essence, it's similar to Kirkq's idea in the thread MUGG linked to -- major difference being, funds would be donated in advance to TASvideos, who would be the neutral party that would eventually distribute the payout. EXAMPLE PSX Final Fantasy VII TAS Any %; fastest completion. (add desired specific conditions) current donated amount: $35.00
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Dimon12321
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ars4326 wrote:
Dimon12321 wrote:
I was watching this site by the start of 2014 and noticed that TASVideos going Pro..."
Dimon, the TASVideos Pro thing was actually a gag that occurred during April 1st on here (a holiday where people play practical jokes). It wasn't a serious plan.
I know! I wrote about this as an example of earning money for TASing though it was a joke. You probably think I'm registered there for earning, but No! It's just my hobby.
TASing is like making a film: only the best takes are shown in the final movie.
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Well, sure the potential for abuse is there. I think people who look at crowdfunding as an opportunity to make money kind of have the wrong idea about what those sites are for. It shouldn't be about making a profit, first and foremost, but rather pursuing a creative endeavor and doing something you're passionate about. The money is only a means to that end. I would never expect to be able to make a living off it. My two cents on the bounty idea, it's a little more of a direct financial incentive than crowdfunding, where ideally the incentive is the project itself. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I suppose it's true having money involved could lead to some people producing subpar TASes, but isn't the opposite also true? Both models provide a way for people to earn income doing something they love, but in my opinion the principles behind each of them are different. It's something I've thought about, but I'm doubtful any plans I may have regarding crowdfunding will ever come to fruition. Still, appreciate your guys comments on the subject.
Knuckles does, what Sonican't.
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I believe this topic is something that many TASers may have thought about. However, I would presume that the amount of material well-being enjoyed by anyone who has ever made a TAS is just staggering. I personally find it impossible to comprehend that (according to https://www.dosomething.org/facts/11-facts-about-global-poverty) this is true: 1. Nearly 1/2 of the world’s population — more than 3 billion people — live on less than $2.50 a day. More than 1.3 billion live in extreme poverty, that's less than $1.25 a day. 2. 1 billion children worldwide are living in poverty. According to UNICEF, 22,000 children die each day due to poverty. 3. 870 million people worldwide do not have enough food to eat. Food banks are especially important in providing food for people that can’t afford it themselves. Run a food drive outside your local grocery store so people in your community have enough to eat. Sign up for Supermarket Stakeout. 4. More than 1 billion people lack adequate access to clean drinking water and an estimated 400 million of these are children. Because unclean water yields illness, roughly 443 million school days are missed every year. 5. In 2011, 165 million children under the age 5 were stunted (reduced rate of growth and development) due to chronic malnutrition. If I have a personal computer and enough free time to make a single good TAS, I probably already belong to the top 1% of the richest persons alive. So, no, I do not need money to support my insanely sophisticated top-tier hobby. Neither do you. It is just stupid and narcissistic. The same is true for anyone who would pay just to see a TAS instead of donating that money to some charity. I could easily imagine myself paying a small amount to see a quality TAS of Monster World IV or some other game that I endorse, but in the broader context it all seems absolutely insane. Even evil. How about some charity TAS event instead? Now, that's a worthy challenge to aim for! Not an easy task either! Hmm, maybe have multiple games with donation goals such that when the goal is reached, the TAS is made? Each TAS could be made by a single TASer who has vowed to make the TAS or by the community working together as a team? This could be done annually and the incentive for the TASers would be to prove themselves worthy by actually producing the TASes that they promised to do for a certain donation. Or maybe have a static donation goals for each game, say 1000$ and all tasable games are unlocked for donations from the start? When the 1000$ is raised, the TAS community vowes to produce a full TAS of the game in the next six months? Then the "points" we currently award for players could be counted by the amount of money your TAS projects have raised for charities. Or how about enrolling some IT-people in Bangalore, India? They could create quality TASes for us lousy TAS wankers with a very low price. Our contacts could easily hire local homeless people or prostitutes and use them as TAS labor force. This might actually work. And all parties might be very happy about the situation too, even the homeless people. If you want, you can, right now, find someone to TAS for you 12 hours every day with just 50$ a month. (Even rickshaw drivers in India don't make more than 200$ a month, and they are doing pretty well relatively speaking.) All the keys are in your hands. Just use the Internet to find a suitable contacts from some poor country (I would suggest India for its +1 technology trait), teach them the basics of the art of TASing and then pay them using any payment method you prefer. First you might get bad-quality work, but eventually you might get maybe 2-5 very high-quality TASes each month with just 50$. If fifty people offered just two dollars a month, it would be even better. In any case, your money would be totally wasted in the Western TAS market, so you should definitely focus your investments elsewhere. Maybe República de Colombia, North Korea or Finland? In the meantime, enjoy the best hobby in the world!
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Aqfaq wrote:
If I have a personal computer and enough free time to make a single good TAS, I probably already belong to the top 1% of the richest persons alive. So, no, I do not need money to support my insanely sophisticated top-tier hobby. Neither do you. It is just stupid and narcissistic. The same is true for anyone who would pay just to see a TAS instead of donating that money to some charity.
Echoing this. I'm absolutely all for charity events, I love that TASing is getting a lot of attention recently, mostly with AGDQ this year and the upcoming block next year. I'd definitely participate in a TAS charity event if it was well-organized in an entertaining way. But... As for crowd-funding a single person, I wouldn't expect anyone to shell out the cash. It's just a hobby. It doesn't require any money to keep it up, so the only incentive is just giving a stranger on the internet money to buy pizza and beer or whatever nerds eat and drink these days. Plus, there's a lot of downtime between quality runs: You can't just put up a good new TAS every week unless you specifically choose extremely short/easy games. You'd need a month or more per run, and I don't think that's often enough to hold peoples' interests. I could see a bounty system working, possibly: Someone offering a set amount of cash for a run they'd like to see at some point. GameFAQs does it with FAQs, so it doesn't seem too farfetched to apply it for TASes as long as the paying party recognizes that it might take a while to be finished. That'd be the most direct form of getting paid to TAS that I can conceivably see happening. ...Damn, now I actually kinda want a TAS charity event to happen. I have no idea how it'll work, but TASers and speedrunners are known for coming up with incredible ideas...
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
WST
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Well, in Russia for some reason it’s kind of stereotype for everyone to beleive he is living in poverty (it is probably result of the politic ideology of the first half of 20th century, when any person with too much money and power was considered an enemy of the nation and “poor” was almost a synonym for “good”, “conscientious”). But when I’m realizing I have at least 3 computers at home (not counting separate parts using which I can compose another one if I really want), my living area itself is almost 100m² (not counting the owned land, of course), and I drink coffee like Kopi Luwak every day, I understand that it’s not exactly true. I also used to meet with the real poverty a few times, and I certainly can say it’s terrible. I can let myself having hobbies like TASing, electronics, web backend development and so on; those people, however, can maybe let themselves play in mud — and only if they live in an area where there is enough water. However, I would lie if I claimed I never thought of making money by TASing. And the only reason making me think so is obvious — great time consumption. It is real that sometimes TASing affected my job quality (by the way, I am jobless right at the moment, though I take some freelance tasks) as well as it often didn’t let me sleep enough… So… I can understand what TheYogWog is meaning. And sometimes I want someone to beat some of my best movies — just to know he experiences the price of that result.
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I believe that it might be a good habit (in future) if a guy that creates enjoyable runs can be donated. But for some reason, once someone starts asking for donations, it ends up like this:
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
ars4326
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@Aqfaq While I agree that donating to charities are a noble cause (which would be great if more people got involved), I also don't want to be made to feel guilty for wanting to spend some entertainment dollars to give someone an incentive to make a cool TAS. I bust my tail in a rubber hose factory for my money, and believe I should be able to spend it as I see fit. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm also open to spending my money towards legit charities who are trying to make a difference in this world. I'm also interested in creating lasting solutions for some of these poverty-stricken areas (e.g. desalination plants, and developing farmland in Africa -- huge potential there, in my opinion). @Feos Lol, yep. That pic says it all, especially in the age of social media.
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
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Another thing to consider is this: If you want to spend money to see more TASes or better TASes, why not pay emulator developers? New and better emulators are far more important resources than a single guy tasing his ass off. Which one you think would have a bigger impact on the amount and quality of TASes: 1. We pay a talented taser 1000$, so that he can tas? 2. We pay a talented coder 1000$, so that he can create new tools for everyone? Also, how would you feel about paying for a TAS and seeing it obsoleted in a few months by a different author for free? I would think that the incentive for obsoleting a paid TAS would be quite high in the TAS community. Also, whoever gets paid for tasing might have difficulties in finding team mates or feedback for his project for free, so he would be pretty much guaranteed to fail. Money just couldn't compete with the passionate free tasers around here. But if you are a millionaire TAS fan, PM me so that we can discuss our five year TAS contract.
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feos wrote:
While this comic strip brilliantly captures some fundamental aspect of society, it seems to miss at least one possibly important point. Namely, the consensus theory of truth. With a quick search, this is the best description I found: Habermas’ consensus theory of truth: A sentence is true if and only if it can be upheld in rational discourse. There are rationality demands: All potential participants to a discussion must have equal chances to participate. All participants must have equal chances to offer interpretations, justifications, etc. In other words, if the donkey, the man, the woman and the bystanders are all given the same information about the situation and are also given the opportunity to openly discuss together, then (assuming the participants are rational) they would reach a consensus. In each of the four cases presented, one of the participants would change his opinion or behavior after a rational discourse.
ars4326
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Aqfaq wrote:
Another thing to consider is this: If you want to spend money to see more TASes or better TASes, why not pay emulator developers? New and better emulators are far more important resources than a single guy tasing his ass off. Which one you think would have a bigger impact on the amount and quality of TASes: 1. We pay a talented taser 1000$, so that he can tas? 2. We pay a talented coder 1000$, so that he can create new tools for everyone? Also, how would you feel about paying for a TAS and seeing it obsoleted in a few months by a different author for free? I would think that the incentive for obsoleting a paid TAS would be quite high in the TAS community. Also, whoever gets paid for tasing might have difficulties in finding team mates or feedback for his project for free, so he would be pretty much guaranteed to fail. Money just couldn't compete with the passionate free tasers around here. But if you are a millionaire TAS fan, PM me so that we can discuss our five year TAS contract.
You make some good points that definitely deepen the conversation, Aqfaq. Very thoughtful questions. Btw, I don't intend for this to get bitter or heated. Our views seem to differ here on this issue, but I don't mind conversing about them. Just throwing ideas around :) I think donating to emulator coders is a good idea, also. Especially with Bizhawk, since I believe it's definitely shaping up to be the emulator for TASing (I'd love to someday see stable PS2 support). Ideally, if I had $30 to throw around, I'd probably donate half to the coder and the other towards a desired project. The issue of having a paid TAS obsoleted is a good point to consider. I guess a paid TAS would come with the implication that every improved movie after that would come with some money, lol. I suppose two things would have to be established before offering a donation towards a desired TAS. First, it would be a one-time donation (unless someone wants to continue donating for every improved movie). And second, the standards for such a TAS should be high enough to where an obsoletion wouldn't be so likely. With that said, I don't think an author who gets paid for collecting a bounty on a desired TAS would have too much difficulty finding teammates. At least for me, it's not a big deal if someone earned some extra money for a TAS. I'd be willing to work with anyone that has proven themselves to be competent in TASing, personally. Lol, it'd be nice to be a millionaire, huh? Hey, if I was, then every author on here would be on my payroll :D
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
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What about a TASVideos DVD? With the permission of any authors of the runs included, it could be organized by console, game franchise, and the site's movie tiers. Maybe we could get it sold by online retailers like Amazon, or simply through TASVideos, or better yet, it could be offered as a donation incentive at next year's AGDQ if it could be ready in time. Proceeds could go towards helping the site, helping emulator development as others have said, and maybe some portion of it could be distributed to any authors whose work was used. It should be fairly simple to make and I think there's a lot of living room appeal in having a collection of fine TASes on a single, tangible piece of media that you can easily watch with others in your home. It could even include extras like commentary on the various runs, or interviews with the authors, or perhaps a built-in frame advance functionality so viewers can slow down their favorite parts and analyze them much like TASers themselves would do when studying other TASes.
Knuckles does, what Sonican't.
ars4326
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TheYogWog wrote:
What about a TASVideos DVD? With the permission of any authors of the runs included, it could be organized by console, game franchise, and the site's movie tiers. Maybe we could get it sold by online retailers like Amazon, or simply through TASVideos, or better yet, it could be offered as a donation incentive at next year's AGDQ if it could be ready in time. Proceeds could go towards helping the site, helping emulator development as others have said, and maybe some portion of it could be distributed to any authors whose work was used. It should be fairly simple to make and I think there's a lot of living room appeal in having a collection of fine TASes on a single, tangible piece of media that you can easily watch with others in your home. It could even include extras like commentary on the various runs, or interviews with the authors, or perhaps a built-in frame advance functionality so viewers can slow down their favorite parts and analyze them much like TASers themselves would do when studying other TASes.
This idea is MONEY! You could easily market annual editions of this, as well (Best of TASvideos 2014, 2015, etc.). YogWog, you should copyright this :D
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
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TASes are in a legal gray area, not sure it is a good idea to sell them for profit. As prizes for charity events, why not, but I'd avoid putting up a "TAS store" with probably copyrighted videos.
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TheYogWog wrote:
What about a TASVideos DVD? With the permission of any authors of the runs included, it could be organized by console, game franchise, and the site's movie tiers. Maybe we could get it sold by online retailers like Amazon, or simply through TASVideos, or better yet, it could be offered as a donation incentive at next year's AGDQ if it could be ready in time. Proceeds could go towards helping the site, helping emulator development as others have said, and maybe some portion of it could be distributed to any authors whose work was used. It should be fairly simple to make and I think there's a lot of living room appeal in having a collection of fine TASes on a single, tangible piece of media that you can easily watch with others in your home. It could even include extras like commentary on the various runs, or interviews with the authors, or perhaps a built-in frame advance functionality so viewers can slow down their favorite parts and analyze them much like TASers themselves would do when studying other TASes.
Illegal.
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I don't think this would be great, some peoples would make this for money, and not by passion.
Current: Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD Paused: N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair) GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven) TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
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got4n wrote:
passion.
^^