So this Japanese only game I came across seems like a nice game to TAS. There are quite a few variations of movement, so optimizing the game completely is pretty hard. That makes it interesting (at least to me) to TAS.
The games difficulty affects how many "lips" you have to collect in each level, as well as how many enemies there are. You have to collect at least 11 out of the first stage, and there are a total of 13. Which means I can omit two.
I did the first stage several times, and I think I've found which 11 I want to get. Tell me what you think. (Userfiles still being a pain, so mediafire it is)
http://www.mediafire.com/download/b40srrshbpd0dmq/Exxonym_Hachiemon_hard3.bk2
Joined: 12/8/2012
Posts: 706
Location: Missouri, USA
So the Duck's beak can be used as a boomerang to retrieve lips? Can it be thrown in different directions? For example, could it be used to retrieve lip #6 as you continue through the level?
WIP is looking good!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
could it be used to retrieve lip #6 as you continue through the level?
I tested that earlier, but seeing as you lose your beak during that time, which is the fastest mode of travel, it actually turned out to be slower by.. 20 frames or so. I'll go back and recheck that. Also, the grass "stairs" are time consuming to climb, and I'd have to climb them if I boomerang'd #6. As far as directions, there are only 2, left and right. You can't throw it diagonally. However when it returns to you it must go diagonally so that's something to consider too.
I messed around with the ending section, and cut off 18 more frames. Here's that file if anyone is interested:
http://www.mediafire.com/download/9cw4f62ejc5cqcx/Exxonym_Hachiemon_hard3.3.bk2
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 402
Location: Japan, Nagoya
Exxonym, I'm looking forward to your run. Keep the good work. :)
By the way, it's shame that BizHawk 1.8.0 does not play the BGM correctly. I asked old women in Osaka to make a takoyaki that will fix the problem. Here it is: http://1drv.ms/1tSxGxW
Extract libvbanext.dll and put it into BizHawk/dll directory. I think it does not change the movie timing. Use it at your own risk, anyways.
Joined: 6/21/2006
Posts: 402
Location: Japan, Nagoya
solarplex, thank you for the encode. It's useful for quick watching.
I would be glad if you applied the sound fix I've posted above.
gocha wrote:
By the way, it's shame that BizHawk 1.8.0 does not play the BGM correctly. I asked old women in Osaka to make a takoyaki that will fix the problem. Here it is: http://1drv.ms/1tSxGxW
Extract libvbanext.dll and put it into BizHawk/dll directory. I think it does not change the movie timing. Use it at your own risk, anyways.
Up to level 7, but I can't figure this level out. Real life events have reduced my free time drastically, so I haven't spent much time on it. If someone could translate the Japanese signs in this level, it might give me a hint.
http://www.mediafire.com/download/a5nq2vf1dd636my/Exxonym_Hachiemon_hard701.bk2Edit: Nevermind, found the object that makes you small at the very top of the screen almost near the level's exit.
So it's been a while since I've posted an update. Finished up through level 9 for now. I might revisit level 9 before moving on, as there are a few things I want to try. I've been kinda lazy with the game lately, but I've put too much time into it now to give up!
Anyway, here's the progress for the curious:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17718890820951695
The mole levels in particular are hard to optimize. The fact that I take 2 hits to save time, means I can't get hit again, so I have to beat the spiked guy back up the cave. I found out it's actually faster to do it that way anyway, instead of using the boomerang to grab all the pieces at the bottom.
Feel free to suggest an improvement if you think it will save time.
Edit: Of course as soon as I post this, I find an improvement. Improved 58 frames by using a boomerang to quick grab the next to last lip.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17816485675260447Edit 2: So I've found an interesting little bug that is actually useful. If you have the damage animation, and use a boomerang you can still use your beak. It only works when you take damage though, but it opens up some shortcuts, because even though it makes the boomerang invisible, it is still going through it's normal trajectory. Now I'm considering potential areas where I could possibly take damage on purpose, when it involves boomerangs. This could also be useful in other levels. An interesting idea I have is since the lip can make you move around very fast, the boomerang might have trouble catching up to you, and could potentially be manipulated through the course to pick up lips. It's tough because the lip is invisible so I'm never quite sure where it is.
Okay so it appears as though I need to start the entire run over. This bug I found that deals with boomerangs and being damaged is useful in the very first level. Since the damage animation takes quite a while, there's not an incredible amount of time saved, but 24 frames saved nonetheless. The boomerang actually catches up to me faster than I expected.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/17839791472800801Edit: I'm not going to post anymore WIP's, but I will post progress here in edits for anyone curious. So far I'm starting level 3 127 frames ahead of the old WIP. About half of that is from a better boss fight.
Edit2: Finished stage 3, 186 frames ahead. I'm actually surprised I was able to save about 60 frames on this stage. I'm glad I started over.
I said I wouldn't post, but I decided to since I'm being lazy with the game this week. I promise I won't post any more improvements to keep it secretz! Level 3 complete, 186 frames ahead of the old WIP:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18005306620083313edit(10/12/2014): Finished level 5, now 284 frames ahead of the old WIP.
I said I wouldn't post, but I decided to since I'm being lazy with the game this week. I promise I won't post any more improvements to keep it secretz! Level 3 complete, 186 frames ahead of the old WIP:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18005306620083313edit(10/12/2014): Finished level 5, now 284 frames ahead of the old WIP.
It's been a while, and I've been jumping between games to try and stay interested in doing anything. Working so long on one game is frying my brain, but don't worry I'll have this game done before Christmas. I've redone up through level 7 again and so far saved 370 frames over my last WIP. Weird little tricks save frames in unexpected places, so it's more than I though I'd save. Used the boomerang/damage glitch in level 7 for a funny effect, and a time-saving one too.
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/18323865882562139
reviving this thread a decade later 【 º ᗜ º 】
im makin an any% (easy mode) TAS. very low lip requirements for each level, not enough to completely trivialize lip routing but damn near. speedier levels in general than All Lips.
Link to video
I am curious about the userfiles for this game that exist on here though; I ran into issues trying open them at all with the Bizhawk they were made for (1.8.1). would be cool to take a look...
oh yeah, in the description of this video I also included a text document that has a complete translation for all the text and dialogue in the game (thank you keeta/samplename) for anyone curious. pretty charming game tbh
Just noticed someone else interested in this game so I made a quick encode of the last WIP I (think) I did:
Link to video
Some things to note:
- I didn't have access to TAStudio when I last worked on this nearly 11 years ago, which would make this game considerably more tolerable to TAS
- hard mode requires more lips but also introduces a ton of new enemies into the game making routing even more tricky
- some things in NEVERDOORS WIP look faster at a glance (I didn't actually check) or at least give me ideas for improvements
- I was never able to find RAM addresses which was a serious demotivator for working on this game
- Subpixels or frame rules on the lip grab seemed to be a thing at the time as sometimes it would fail to make contact with a lip despite having the same exact inputs
So my question to NEVERDOORS, were you ever able to find any kind of relevant RAM addresses such as speed, position, or subpixels?
If I were to ever revive this game, I kind of considered switching to 100% lips. Hard mode requires more lips but it still doesn't require 100%. I'm not sure if you get a new ending or anything for doing 100% so I don't know if it's even worth it. But the routing could be fun.
oh shit, thanks for the encode! honestly, All Lips looks more interesting of a watch and is definitely more of a routing challenge. Would be cool to see if you do feel like reviving it.
Exonym wrote:
were you ever able to find any kind of relevant RAM addresses such as speed, position, or subpixels?
There's a few RAM addresses I found that have been helpful:
x-position: 0x1D50
y-position: 0x1D34
'speed': 0x0D12
This 'speed' value is... not quite what you might expect / slightly misleading sometimes, but works well enough along with the position values to be a useful tool.
I got nothing for subpixels though. Also, I can't say I've ever noticed any shenanigans with lip grabs; obviously some require precision with regard to lip/body positioning but I've never had any desyncs or anything. But sometimes really subtle changes in air speed movement have made a difference for hitting them or not, which might be what you're referring to.
I actually learned to use TAS Studio for the first time for this project, because I had to go back and fix some unoptimal text mashing for an earlier boss fight. Through this process I discovered that, for the most part, level movement is deterministic regardless of RNG, so most levels sync perfectly when copy/pasting inputs. Exceptions are certain boss fights (Level 8 comes to mind), as well as the end-level slot RNG.
Exonym wrote:
I'm not sure if you get a new ending or anything for doing 100% so I don't know if it's even worth it. But the routing could be fun.
There isnt a new ending for 100%, you do get an alternate title screen and a few trophies however.
Here's an updated WIP for any%. I've gotten back into the groove of steady progress on it recently, and have completed 12/22 levels. I hope to finish and submit it by the end of the year or early next ^^
Link to video
