I have never created a TAS myself, but if I wanted to create an improved TAS of an already-TASed game, I would surely watch the existing TAS and borrow many techniques from it.
I am going to guess that almost every TAS author does the same thing. Clearly, a TAS is not composed solely of original ideas.
I propose a solution to recognize previous version authors: Post their names in the download area. For example, the most recent movie entry looks like this:
Download AVI file via BitTorrent (size: 38 MB, length: 25:08)
Download FCEU movie (.fcm) (date: 2005-08-02)
Read author's comments in submission #767
Discuss this movie
Previous versions by: Phil, Genisto, Bisqwit <-- add this line
Previous authors could also be recognized by some text in the first few frames of the AVI file along with the "this is a tool assisted video" stuff.
By the way, TAS authors don't borrow from the previous version authors alone. They also use ideas from TASes of other games (for example, the idea of taking damage to boost yourself forward occurs in many games), suggestions from posters on the board and in the IRC channel, and even ideas from outside of the TAS realm entirely (for example, BisqBot likely borrows many non-original algorithms discovered by computer scientists and mathematicians to create its TASes).
However, it feels silly to give credit to hundreds of tangentially related people. One must draw the line somewhere and give credit to the few who most deserve it. In my opinion, these people are the authors of previous versions of the TAS in question and, in rare cases, the most prolific helpers from the forum (Legend of Zelda is a good example where some forum posters deserved some credit).
Well, it certainly succeeded in making an awful lot of people look foolish and petty. Hard to believe supposedly intelligent people care so much about 36 frames. Thank you, Phil. Just for that, you get a Yes vote.
Yes, it is hard to believe supposedly intelligent people care so much about 36 frames that they would vote Yes to a run that adds undesireable profound wobbling.
The choice boils down to this:
1. A 7:54 run without annoying wobbling or
2. A 7:54 run with annoying wobbling
Now from reading people's opinions on the forum, it seems people prefer No Wobbling.
But getting away from the whole speed vs aesthetics argument and back to my original point, people shouldn’t rip-off other people’s runs unless they can do something new and actually add some of their own ideas to it. I’m sure everyone’s heard of plagiarism?
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
KaitouKid wrote:
The goal isn’t perfection.
Funny, I thought sloppy runs weren't allowed.
Get the fucking hair out of your ass and stop your god damn whining already. Christ. People like you make me wholly embarassed to be a part of this community. -.-
And you need to cool down with your language junior! Show respect to Sleepz, period!!
As I wrote in irc: you know what pisses me off? when kaitoukid and krieg writes comments like: "I still would be amazed if someone would improve a run by 1 frame". Where is the freakin entertainment in that?!? (Im not pointing anybody here or you Phil)
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
I'm saying that this situation is similar to plagiarism. I'm sure no one likes having their worked completely ripped-off.
AngerFist wrote:
As I wrote in irc: you know what pisses me off? when kaitoukid and krieg writes comments like: "I still would be amazed if someone would improve a run by 1 frame". Where is the freakin entertainment in that?!? (Im not pointing anybody here or you Phil)
Yea, these guys are missing the point of making TAS.
Funny, I thought sloppy runs weren't allowed.
Get the fucking hair out of your ass and stop your god damn whining already. Christ. People like you make me wholly embarassed to be a part of this community. -.-
And you need to cool down with your language junior! Show respect to Sleepz, period!!
As I wrote in irc: you know what pisses me off? when kaitoukid and krieg writes comments like: "I still would be amazed if someone would improve a run by 1 frame". Where is the freakin entertainment in that?!? (Im not pointing anybody here or you Phil)
How about this? When he stops having a royal fit about something that's been happening for a long time now, then I'll bring my respect level for him back up. That sounds about fair. Note how pretty much no one else - to MY knowledge, anyway - had such a conniption over something so petty.
And I'll be happy to own up to it if you'd be so kind as to where, exactly, I said I would be 'amazed' if someone would improve a run by 1 frame. I've said that if it came down to it, I'd vote for a 1-frame better movie, yes, but I never would go "OMGZ WUT TEH HELL WON FRAM!!!!" Providing the newer run is AS entertaining as the movie is was aiming to replace or BETTER, it would get a yes vote. Why? Because it's that much better. And if such things aren't an issue, I'm sure I could lug my ass off and dredge up EXAMPLES of this happening.
I go to the SDA and here. Why? Because both types of speed runs entertain me. I like seeing what players can accomplish on their own AND with emulators. I don't get involved in stupid "omgz they suck" arguments on which is 'better.' When someone submits a new run, and it is faster than the last run, and it is as good/better than the previous entry, why shouldn't I want to see it be published? Because some part of the community has decided to raise an uproar over something so stupid? No. Which is why I voted yes in this instance - It's faster without losing entertainment value.
If Sleepz insists on bristling up about the issue, then just have Phil write up some stupid note of thanks towards him for the route or somesuch. That this has turned into a three-page mini flame war is both ridiculous and dumb as crap.
Now what do you two (Phil and Sleepz) want to do? The way I see it, these are your options.
1: Phil's run rejected, Sleepz does a jig.
2: Phil's run accepted, Sleepz walks off a la oldschool TV The Incredible Hulk, complete with sad travelling music.
3: Phil's run accepted w/nod toward Sleepz, idiocy ended.
4: Phil's run rejected, Sleepz's removed, Bis puts up No SMB2 For You sign on main page, gives both gamers pink slips.
1: Phil's run rejected, Sleepz does a jig.
2: Phil's run accepted, Sleepz walks off a la oldschool TV The Incredible Hulk, complete with sad travelling music.
3: Phil's run accepted w/nod toward Sleepz, idiocy ended.
4: Phil's run rejected, Sleepz's removed, Bis puts up No SMB2 For You sign on main page, gives both gamers pink slips.
Thanks for the constructive post :)
Now, we just need to figure out whether this movie actually is better than the previous or not - and I have no word to that before I actually watch it.
As should be clear to everyone already, time is not the only thing that can be measured in a movie to see which one is better.
The completion time is only a hint for lazy judges.
If nothing else, it is a complement to Sleepz that Phil could only improve his run by 36 frames and not do anything more entertaining along the way. He made a faster run, that is for sure, but failed at making one that is more entertaining. Whether or not this run gets published, you have something to be proud of, Sleepz.
The completion time is only a hint for lazy judges.
so it pretty much has the same purpose as the voting system. :p
Joined: 5/1/2004
Posts: 4096
Location: Rio, Brazil
As i mentioned before, this is a mario game, and if Phil sees 36 possible frame improvement he can do it as well as tell sleepz to do it. He chose to do it himself, which is ok, for this game, i guess.
But it needs to be clear "plagiarism" IS an issue! I'm not saying people will stop submitting movies because it can easily be improved later by 1 frame, but it certainly is a let down that can either cause people to:
1 - delay the submissions.
2 - keep the wip to themselves untill they got it totally perfect, thus wasting a lot more time than if we worked TOGETHER, as a community discussing the runs, which is much more productive!
3 - like sleepz and bisqwit said, it would become a mere fastest time competition, and this is not the purpose of the site, and it's in the guidelines as i recall: "if i can waste 1 frame or 2 to show a cool trick, i go for it". That is not the case with THIS run, because it's an starred mario game, but i'm speaking generally.
Why don't you, Sleepz, try to make an even faster run without the "wobbling"? Right now the 36 frames faster run is the best and most entertaining and should replace your run.
Personally, I felt that the old movie was more enjoyable because the different bits used to make the movie different from the old one (like the first birdo battle), just didn't seem as interesting, along with the lack of the snow person being caught in the ground. If you just look at both runs and didn't have the frame count, it would seem that the old one is faster too, even though it technically isn't. So in terms of entertainment, I'll have to vote no, just based on my tastes and how I enjoy things most. Actual completion time generally doesn't mean too much to me.
(Ignore if you like, I digress from the topic here)
I also felt similarly about that new SMB1 run. If the only thing that was changed was the faster final level, I would have just had that one replace the old one without much thought, since it's not less enjoyable in any way, but it's technically faster. But when the set amount of frames for each level is taken advantage of, it just seems slower, and getting more points or coins just doesn't make up for it in my mind since it feels so imperfect. Similarly, if damage is taken to affect randomness, I don't like it too much. To me, if you have to explain the reasoning behind doing someting that looks sloppy or if you have the just trust that the person knew what they were doing, it's less enjoyable. But there are definately times when it's worthwhile.
Joined: 7/28/2004
Posts: 135
Location: Finland Realms
supermegavkoy wrote:
Why don't you, Sleepz, try to make an even faster run without the "wobbling"? Right now the 36 frames faster run is the best and most entertaining and should replace your run.
Does the improved 36 frames entertain you? Or the wobbling? What do you find in the movie that entertains you more than sleepz movie?
doesn't one of Phil's Double dragon movies not do the fastest techneque because it would be boring to watch? What if someone did the exact same as you, except for one spot he did that techneque making it a little faster, and everything else was the same.... is that the same case here? or.. do i have no idea what im talking about.
Wow, go to sleep early one night and look what happens.
When a movie replaces an old one, the movie has been "obsoleted". That implies time, to me. I also have to say that I think it's ridiculous that Sleepz is so protective over his name staying on a run. I never thought that was something that went along with a TAS, because of the way they are made. It's never been about who makes the movie, it's about having the best movie.
And when did 36 frames of improvement become "not enough"? When a game's time is as close to the theoretical limit as (we think) SMB2's is, improvements will be small at best. And this wobbling nonsense - you people are just looking for a reason to keep Sleepz's name on the main page. I can't imagine the thought process behind "Wow this is a real fast run! Oh my gosh look at the wobbling. What a previously great, but now horrible, run." Cry me a river.
In conclusion, quit acting like a bunch of bitches, and just keep the vision of the sight in mind. Also remember that speed is the primary form of entertainment. And if this run gets rejected (or the publishers aren't in a "hurry publishing this movie"), then it is blatant favortism over players rather than the product, which is unfortunate. We will only delay the process of the movies approaching perfection with this attitude.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
This run is not a pure copy of Sleepz's version. Almost all stages, except 6-2, were improved by at least 1 frame.
Compared to Sleepz's version, I have lost 5 frames when taking the rocket at 7-1. Apparently, there's a X frames rule.
4-1 improvement is the most noticeable one but there's the birdo fight at stage of 7-1 where Sleepz had made an unuseful jump that costs him some frames.
I am somewhat deceived that Sleepz is not happy and calling it "PURE COPY" and instead must study my video and find where at those improvements.
His discovery is cool at 1-1 but he gets lucky that it saves more frame that my trick at stage 4-1. Both of them are improvements. It's just that one of them makes the video faster than the other.
When a movie replaces an old one, the movie has been "obsoleted". That implies time, to me. I also have to say that I think it's ridiculous that Sleepz is so protective over his name staying on a run. I never thought that was something that went along with a TAS, because of the way they are made. It's never been about who makes the movie, it's about having the best movie.
The noob im speaking of is a person who thinks his opinion is correct.
And when did 36 frames of improvement become "not enough"?
The noob im speaking of is a person who has no idea what this topic is about. we never said that about time.
And this wobbling nonsense - you people are just looking for a reason to keep Sleepz's name on the main page.
Obviously, everyone finds it not entertaining.
Cry me a river.
Again.
In conclusion, quit acting like a bunch of bitches, and just keep the vision of the sight in mind. Also remember that speed is the primary form of entertainment.
Not in this case noob.
blatant favortism over players
Again.
We will only delay the process of the movies approaching perfection with this attitude.
What exactly do you think Perfection is?
And, None of this is pointed at Phil, if he reads this.
Joined: 4/16/2004
Posts: 1276
Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Internet went down for a few hours and apparently I missed a lot of what was going on in this topic, now it's time for me to say what I think. I haven't read all post word by word but I've read most of them.
To be honest I think this whole deal has become to focused on time. Sure, time often means more perfect runs but not as much as people claim. Hmm, let's say that in SMB1 one loses a frame for every coin he picks up but it wouldn't affect the time units because I guess a time unit is, say, 10 frames. So if this was the case and someone picked up 9 coins in every stage = losing 9 frames but noone would see it (maybe if someone watched it frame by frame but..), would that be less entertaining than taking those 9 coins? I don't see it this way and thus I can be without those 9 frames. Ok, I also think that one has to judge each game, I think it's cool that SMB1 is "perfect" but really, I don't care about a frame here or there in other games.
To get slightly off topic but yet focus on Sleepz comments:
I wasn't very happy when that, to me unknown, person stole my story-book runs. Sure, he did improved them by several seconds but as far as I know (I haven't watched them) he didn't invent anything new really, just copy-paste with a better tool than Famtasia. I would much rather have re-done them myself, even though it would have taken me a year to get back my lost motivation. Yesterday Adelikat beat my Cobra Triangle with a huge amount of time. This feels slightly better because he apparently did things different but I'm not that happy about it =/
Maybe "stealing" is the wrong word here but I'm sure you understand what I mean..
I too have stolen runs unfortunately so I can't complain too much (Rygar was Warp's from the beginning) but I totally agree with those who's opinion is that the original author should get a chance to improve their own runs instead of someone backstabbing them.
I'm also aware of the fact that "competition breeds perfection", but then again, is perfection the best? In most cases, I don't really care if a frame or two can be saved.
Deviance said earlier that "this site is not an ego collection". I can agree to this to a certain point, but I don't think many people likes being ripped off, here or in real life.
Hmm, I think that is what I wanted to say.
Sorry for getting off topic.
Edit: Also, I don't intend to throw dirt oon you Phil. Finding 36 frames is clearly skilled, but still I stand by my opinions.
When a movie replaces an old one, the movie has been "obsoleted". That implies time, to me. I also have to say that I think it's ridiculous that Sleepz is so protective over his name staying on a run. I never thought that was something that went along with a TAS, because of the way they are made. It's never been about who makes the movie, it's about having the best movie. [/i]
The noob im speaking of is a person who thinks his opinion is correct.
The bolded portions show that I wasn't trying to validate my opinion as fact.
Vatchern wrote:
And when did 36 frames of improvement become "not enough"?
The noob im speaking of is a person who has no idea what this topic is about. we never said that about time.
Sleepz wrote:
You redid this whole run copying mine move for move just to improve by 36 frames.
Hopper wrote:
I agree. From now on, a world record in the 100m sprint should have to be beaten by at least 0.05 seconds in order to be a new record. No more of this 0.01 crap.
Phil wrote:
Yesterday, less than 20 frames improvement wasn't good, today 36 frames isn't good and tomorrow 10 seconds will be bad or what?
Yeah, this topic has nothing to do with 36 frames, except that it's been discussed several times within.
Vatchern wrote:
And this wobbling nonsense - you people are just looking for a reason to keep Sleepz's name on the main page.
Obviously, everyone finds it not entertaining.
Everyone? Who's assuming their opinion is fact now?
Vatchern wrote:
In conclusion, quit acting like a bunch of bitches, and just keep the vision of the sight in mind. Also remember that speed is the primary form of entertainment.
Not in this case noob.
Another of your opinions taken as fact. Tell me, why are your opinions fact, and mine make me a noob? Because you have more mindless one-word posts than I do? Ridiculous.
Vatchern wrote:
blatant favortism over players
Again.
Again what? My opinion doesn't count because you don't agree with it?
Vatchern wrote:
We will only delay the process of the movies approaching perfection with this attitude.
What exactly do you think Perfection is?
Perfection to me (note the opinion) is completing the game as fast as possible, while keeping the video as entertaining as possible without losing speed. Check the guidelines:
Guidelines wrote:
Compare different paths and select the one that can be done fastest.
Gosh, I sure do know a lot about this site for being a noob.
Also on the WhyAndHow page:
WhyAndHow wrote:
It's a massive undertaking to produce a good tool-assisted movie. Sure, anyone can undo when they make a mistake - but who can spot the error that causes 0.1 seconds of delay in the movie?
Who can spot the error? Phil. But apparently that doesn't matter now, because we only need to follow our own guidelines when our opinions agree with them. And only the opinions of people like Vatchern, because other opinions don't count, because we are "noobs".
So in the future, please don't waste your own time with one word posts aimed to insult me.
<Swordless> Go hug a tree, you vegetarian (I bet you really are one)
