If they had read the documentation site that is metroid2002 (like we asked), or kept in mind the techniques brought up to them earlier in the thread, they would have probably came up with the answer without having to contact itspersonnal. As it is, they're wasting people's time.
Or, you know, he could have answered the question nicely or at the very least provided a link to the information instead of being a complete douchebag and publicly belittling got4n and the rest of the team.
Whether itspersonnal answered or not is irrelevant to TheMG2's point (I agree he should've given a helpful answer, assuming he didn't, and he honestly hasn't bee the most polite person). TheMG2's point is that they didn't bother looking up information themselves (when they claimed they would), which is documented very well on m2k2 and has been mentioned countless times to them.
Although to be fair to itspersonnal, why should he give them a link to the website if it was already mentioned so often and they didn't bother? I still would've let them know (again) anyways but still.
Samsara wrote:
Let me just say this: If you're not going to give them any information yourselves, then shut the hell up and let them do whatever they want. You don't deserve any creative control over their workflow or process if you're not going to be actively helpful.
Except we ARE trying to be helpful. What do you want people to do, copy and paste content already provided on the website? It's no different than informing them about it. Much of information that's not directly on the website was already provided in the past few pages of this thread.
i'm willing to help and answer questions, I want them to do a good job. But if one asked me a question about something very basic, I would just redirect that person to the appropriate page/thread anyways.
This is just getting silly, way too many people misinterpreting a lot of things <_<
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
kirbymastah wrote:
TheMG2's point is that they didn't bother looking up information themselves (when they claimed they would), which is documented very well on m2k2 and has been mentioned countless times to them.
Although to be fair to itspersonnal, why should he give them a link to the website if it was already mentioned so often and they didn't bother?
got4n, to the best of my knowledge, is a new addition to the team and may not have caught up on the thread at that point. Plus, to someone brand new to the mechanics of the game (or the game itself, even), they may not have even known what to look up even if they had the link to M2k2. Asking someone about their own video and their own strategies is the quickest way to get the answer you're looking for.
His response could have just been a direct link to a video explaining the scan dash, or a thread on M2k2 about it or however things work there. And sure, it could have been a nice response at the time, but regardless of the answer he gave, it's absolutely disgusting that he'd use that innocent question as a way to belittle the team and essentially call them all idiots. That's the issue at hand: Not what happened at the time, but what happened here in public. You absolutely shouldn't be defending that outburst.
NOW I'm gonna ignore this thread for a while so I don't get any more stressed out.
EDIT: You (kirbymastah) seem to understand, and props to you for that. It's just tiring to see the same links to M2k2 several times per page. You might interpret it as helpful but I still can't help but see it as a declaration that you're not going to actively help, especially given the frequency of the links and how multiple people have actually said it's a waste of time. You don't have to copy-paste information here, but if someone asks a question that you know the answer to, it wouldn't hurt to just answer it or at least provide a direct link to a forum thread/video explaining the concept, which it seems like you're willing to do.
I just wish the others could be like that.
Alright, I'm gone.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
First of all, thank you Samsara and Personman and others for sticking up to us and our community. Out of all the recent posts from m2k2:ers, kirbymastah was the most polite and civilized one.
TheMG2 wrote:
I highly recommend that if you don't already, start lurking the metroid2002 forums, start watching runs of the game on twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Metroid%20Prime ), youtube and sda (all categories, don't just watch any%), learn all the terminology, take part in the metroid prime community, etc. Heck, it would be best if at least one of you started RUNNING the game. Try to get around a 1:10 in any% on console (if you run the game, you'll realize the differences between console and emulator). In addition, do 21%. Don't try speedrunning 21% or tasing it, just do it (with slow down if you must) to get a better understanding of the game. If you do all this, the end result will be way better than if you had not.
If you do not put the time and effort into learning about the game, the people who are in the prime community will look down on your TAS. Half a year of playing around with the game does not sound enough to do the game justice. Your posts are not very hope inspiring to me. I have a feeling that you will end up with a worse time than the expected time of miles's segmented run that is currently on hold.
I don't run the game, I've just lurked in the prime community for a while. I've learned quite a bit about the game just by lurking and watching runs.
The audacity some people have.. Where do you get the BALLS to talk to us like this? I mean really, WHAT THE FUCK.. Like Omni said, our run, our rules. If it doesn't suit you, then do your own run. Put up, or shut up if you are just going to be hateful and just tell us what on earth are we thinking. Do you think we get more motivated reading hateful and repeated unnecessary information of what we should do? We got the message from Paraxade, we thanked him for his recommendation.
Really, it's very demotivating hearing such hate. I bet someone will say but no it's not hate, we are urging you this and that. We heard it the first time! Don't undermine me and my teammates position as tasers. I have done a short 9-tas controlling 9 fucking mega men with one input. Do you have any goddamn idea how incredibly difficult that was? What I went through? How and why I restarted 2 whole times? How many things you need to consider doing a 9-tas run? I have done a sextuple tas, quadruple tas, tased mega man 1, mega man 3, mega man 4 several times, mega man 6, mega man 8, wonderboy, alex kidd in shinobi world and some other games I have forgotten. I have 10 motherfucking tasing years of experience!! And that was just me. Then we have Mothrayas, the guy has tased basically all platforms there is except Dolphin. We have Solarplex who has tased Prince of Persia. exileUT and got4n have good amount of tasing experience aswell.
We will read, practice and possibly do a playthrough before starting our official run. Or maybe we will tas at least the frigate and then start fooling around. It's our choice. Do not shove your elitist approach on us, it's demotivating. Help where help is needed, not by saying incredibly stupid things like, "don't waste my time unless.." or watch a 21% speedrun... I was there in the beginning. When Radix did his run. I was inspiried. That inspiration is what made me be a man and attempt tasing this beast of a game. If it didn't work out, then it didn't work out. At least we tried, at least we had the courage. Again we won't back down if we hit a setback, that will only motivate us further.
Pay attention to my signature, because that's how I pretty much feel is going on right now.
Edit: I am done discussing this as it's draining unnecessary time. The next post from me will be related to the actual run.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
gotta have the last word I guess! (not really I just had starting writing this before a lot of the above posts and it's worth posting).
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that.
This is something I think a lot of people not too familiar with Metroid Prime seem to be missing. So listen up, everyone. I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say, but this game is not something you can just take on and expect good results. This game doesn't play like your average video game, it's complicated to an unmatched extent as far as I am aware. Just a simple jump is a huge mathematical problem, and jumping is the most common method of movement. There are so many rules you need to follow if you want to actually gain and maintain speed. So many mistakes that will go unnoticed without a full understanding of what you're doing. Trajectory, facing angle, position, samus' state... they're all vital, and not a single one can be changed without throwing the others out of whack. Maybe this still doesn't sound too difficult to you? Well remember that this game uses only the analog stick for both movement and looking around, and once you've pressed R to look around, your controls are locked, which adds a whole new level to things. Throw in prior momentum from a previous jump, or throw in a specific area you need to be facing during the jump and you're in a whole mess of trouble. There are so many variables that people unfamiliar with the physics wouldn't even think about, or know how to change properly. To reiterate, there is a whole world of movement techniques practically invisible to anyone viewing from a casual standpoint. Even some of the people here who act like they know everything don't fully understand how a TAS would move in this game (myself being one of them). You cannot just decide that you're going to TAS Metroid Prime without first doing extensive research into what makes Samus move quickly. M2k2 is the one and only place to start learning.
Edit: not to mention making an actual route. There is no way someone can just sit down and think up a TAS route without knowing every possible combination necessary items to get from point A to point B, and knowing the games map and every potentially fast SW like the back of your hand.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
First of all, thank you Samsara and Personman and others for sticking up to us and our community. Out of all the recent posts from m2k2:ers, kirbymastah was the most polite and civilized one.
TheMG2 wrote:
I highly recommend that if you don't already, start lurking the metroid2002 forums, start watching runs of the game on twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Metroid%20Prime ), youtube and sda (all categories, don't just watch any%), learn all the terminology, take part in the metroid prime community, etc. Heck, it would be best if at least one of you started RUNNING the game. Try to get around a 1:10 in any% on console (if you run the game, you'll realize the differences between console and emulator). In addition, do 21%. Don't try speedrunning 21% or tasing it, just do it (with slow down if you must) to get a better understanding of the game. If you do all this, the end result will be way better than if you had not.
If you do not put the time and effort into learning about the game, the people who are in the prime community will look down on your TAS. Half a year of playing around with the game does not sound enough to do the game justice. Your posts are not very hope inspiring to me. I have a feeling that you will end up with a worse time than the expected time of miles's segmented run that is currently on hold.
I don't run the game, I've just lurked in the prime community for a while. I've learned quite a bit about the game just by lurking and watching runs.
The audacity some people have.. Where do you get the BALLS to talk to us like this? I mean really, WHAT THE FUCK.. Like Omni said, our run, our rules. If it doesn't suit you, then do your own run. Put up, or shut up if you are just going to be hateful and just tell us what on earth are we thinking. Do you think we get more motivated reading hateful and repeated unnecessary information of what we should do? We got the message from Paraxade, we thanked him for his recommendation.
Really, it's very demotivating hearing such hate. I bet someone will say but no it's not hate, we are urging you this and that. We heard it the first time! Don't undermine me and my teammates position as tasers. I have done a short 9-tas controlling 9 fucking mega men with one input. Do you have any goddamn idea how incredibly difficult that was? What I went through? How and why I restarted 2 whole times? How many things you need to consider doing a 9-tas run? I have done a sextuple tas, quadruple tas, tased mega man 1, mega man 3, mega man 4 several times, mega man 6, mega man 8, wonderboy, alex kidd in shinobi world and some other games I have forgotten. I have 10 motherfucking tasing years of experience!! And that was just me. Then we have Mothrayas, the guy has tased basically all platforms there is except Dolphin. We have Solarplex who has tased Prince of Persia. exileUT and got4n have good amount of tasing experience aswell.
We will read, practice and possibly do a playthrough before starting our official run. Or maybe we will tas at least the frigate and then start fooling around. It's our choice. Do not shove your elitist approach on us, it's demotivating. Help where help is needed, not by saying incredibly stupid things like, "don't waste my time unless.." or watch a 21% speedrun... I was there in the beginning. When Radix did his run. I was inspiried. That inspiration is what made me be a man and attempt tasing this beast of a game. If it didn't work out, then it didn't work out. At least we tried, at least we had the courage. Again we won't back down if we hit a setback, that will only motivate us further.
Pay attention to my signature, because that's how I pretty much feel is going on right now.
Edit: I am done discussing this as it's draining unnecessary time. The next post from me will be related to the actual run.
Your signature is so related to the debate lol. Also thanks to everyone hwo did awnsered calmly and not like "omgyoudidntknowthisyoustupid" if I send you a picture of a rayman 3 glitch and I want you to tell me what is glitch name p, where to use it, and how, you wont manage UNLESS YOU ARE EXPERIENCED... Everyone is experienced in his own category ^^. It´s a bit shameful that some peoples are Way more older than me and cant understand this. Anyway, I am stopping débating on this. :)
Current:
Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
First of all, thank you Samsara and Personman and others for sticking up to us and our community. Out of all the recent posts from m2k2:ers, kirbymastah was the most polite and civilized one.
TheMG2 wrote:
I highly recommend that if you don't already, start lurking the metroid2002 forums, start watching runs of the game on twitch ( http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Metroid%20Prime ), youtube and sda (all categories, don't just watch any%), learn all the terminology, take part in the metroid prime community, etc. Heck, it would be best if at least one of you started RUNNING the game. Try to get around a 1:10 in any% on console (if you run the game, you'll realize the differences between console and emulator). In addition, do 21%. Don't try speedrunning 21% or tasing it, just do it (with slow down if you must) to get a better understanding of the game. If you do all this, the end result will be way better than if you had not.
If you do not put the time and effort into learning about the game, the people who are in the prime community will look down on your TAS. Half a year of playing around with the game does not sound enough to do the game justice. Your posts are not very hope inspiring to me. I have a feeling that you will end up with a worse time than the expected time of miles's segmented run that is currently on hold.
I don't run the game, I've just lurked in the prime community for a while. I've learned quite a bit about the game just by lurking and watching runs.
The audacity some people have.. Where do you get the BALLS to talk to us like this? I mean really, WHAT THE FUCK.. Like Omni said, our run, our rules. If it doesn't suit you, then do your own run. Put up, or shut up if you are just going to be hateful and just tell us what on earth are we thinking. Do you think we get more motivated reading hateful and repeated unnecessary information of what we should do? We got the message from Paraxade, we thanked him for his recommendation.
Really, it's very demotivating hearing such hate. I bet someone will say but no it's not hate, we are urging you this and that. We heard it the first time! Don't undermine me and my teammates position as tasers. I have done a short 9-tas controlling 9 fucking mega men with one input. Do you have any goddamn idea how incredibly difficult that was? What I went through? How and why I restarted 2 whole times? How many things you need to consider doing a 9-tas run? I have done a sextuple tas, quadruple tas, tased mega man 1, mega man 3, mega man 4 several times, mega man 6, mega man 8, wonderboy, alex kidd in shinobi world and some other games I have forgotten. I have 10 motherfucking tasing years of experience!! And that was just me. Then we have Mothrayas, the guy has tased basically all platforms there is except Dolphin. We have Solarplex who has tased Prince of Persia. exileUT and got4n have good amount of tasing experience aswell.
We will read, practice and possibly do a playthrough before starting our official run. Or maybe we will tas at least the frigate and then start fooling around. It's our choice. Do not shove your elitist approach on us, it's demotivating. Help where help is needed, not by saying incredibly stupid things like, "don't waste my time unless.." or watch a 21% speedrun... I was there in the beginning. When Radix did his run. I was inspiried. That inspiration is what made me be a man and attempt tasing this beast of a game. If it didn't work out, then it didn't work out. At least we tried, at least we had the courage. Again we won't back down if we hit a setback, that will only motivate us further.
Pay attention to my signature, because that's how I pretty much feel is going on right now.
Edit: I am done discussing this as it's draining unnecessary time. The next post from me will be related to the actual run.
Last post about this, but to a lot of people (myself included), there was a strong impression that you guys are already trying to start the TAS already without having done much research, and there have been posts and messages supporting this. A lot of responses to these posts were under that assumption that you guys were impatiently starting and/or didn't really do much research beforehand and I guess that's wrong; at the same time, most of you haven't really said much that shows you've done appropriate research behind the game. Whether that's true or not, a lot of people probably overreacted (myself included) so I apologize for that.
In terms of other advice, there're a lot of any% routes floating around that people were messing with (though the standard ones are the IBBF one that the top players use, and the early sun route that a few runners like me use). Metroid177 had an interesting route but I'm not sure how itl'l work for TAS; I recommend PMing him on m2k2. He's also been working on a segmented 21% run lately, which has been really sick to watch so far with some cool strats. I seriously doubt that the TAS would actually follow a single route, since there are many other options you can take, but they're valid ideas to mess with.
But,dont Forget that everything is learnable. For example, itspersonal learned his arrogance, dont you think? Anyway, sorry for mistakes I am tired it´s 11PM and have an history exam. 'Night all :)
Current:
Rayman 3 maybe? idk xD
Paused:
N64 Rayman 2 (with Funnyhair)
GBA SMA 4 : E Reader (With TehSeven)
TASVideos is like a quicksand, you get in, but you cannot quit the sand
I admit, I probably worded some stuff badly in that post. And probably lost my focus. And a whole bunch of other things. You're taking one post I made and acting as though I'm declaring war. I'm not.
Also quoting this before it gets lost in the mess:
itsPersonnal wrote:
gotta have the last word I guess! (not really I just had starting writing this before a lot of the above posts and it's worth posting).
Dude, their TAS, their workflow, their way. It's as simple as that.
This is something I think a lot of people not too familiar with Metroid Prime seem to be missing. So listen up, everyone. I know it sounds like a stupid thing to say, but this game is not something you can just take on and expect good results. This game doesn't play like your average video game, it's complicated to an unmatched extent as far as I am aware. Just a simple jump is a huge mathematical problem, and jumping is the most common method of movement. There are so many rules you need to follow if you want to actually gain and maintain speed. So many mistakes that will go unnoticed without a full understanding of what you're doing. Trajectory, facing angle, position, samus' state... they're all vital, and not a single one can be changed without throwing the others out of whack. Maybe this still doesn't sound too difficult to you? Well remember that this game uses only the analog stick for both movement and looking around, and once you've pressed R to look around, your controls are locked, which adds a whole new level to things. Throw in prior momentum from a previous jump, or throw in a specific area you need to be facing during the jump and you're in a whole mess of trouble. There are so many variables that people unfamiliar with the physics wouldn't even think about, or know how to change properly. To reiterate, there is a whole world of movement techniques practically invisible to anyone viewing from a casual standpoint. Even some of the people here who act like they know everything don't fully understand how a TAS would move in this game (myself being one of them). You cannot just decide that you're going to TAS Metroid Prime without first doing extensive research into what makes Samus move quickly. M2k2 is the one and only place to start learning.
EDIT: And please stop insulting itspersonnal thanks.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I admit, I probably worded some stuff badly in that post. And probably lost my focus.
This for me too. It's really hard to not feed off all the rage going on in here. You guys know I've been on the opposite end of this fight before, right? I know how aggravating it is to have the community telling you how impossible Metroid Prime is to TAS.
I (we) just want to see quality work, I want to look at my favourite video game's TAS and be blown away. Being aggressive isn't working for getting our point across, sure. And attacking members of the crew wasn't really right to do, I was just so sick of reading questions that could only be asked by someone who hasn't read up on the game. If you're going to take on this game, and you've confident in your ability to do so, then go ahead. But I'm not voting for something subpar.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
I really want to know how the world will end if they try to tas it, and fail, or create something that you guys deem to be terrible? If it's bad, then oh well, it's bad. Don't watch it, don't help them, and vote no on the submission. The world won't be worse off because they make a bad tas. Who knows, maybe you'll be surprised. And even if not, at least it'll give a point of comparison for the next attempt. The worst thing that can come of them trying is they waste their time, and that doesn't affect anyone but them, so if they think it's worth trying, let them try.
If they actually do complete a TAS, but the MP community thinks it's bad, it wouldn't really matter, because that TAS will get improved. And that next one too. Eventually, there will be a TAS that even the experts like. So I would say, better start with something, instead of not starting at all.
Current project: Gex 3 any%
Paused: Gex 64 any%
There are no N64 emulators. Just SM64 emulators with hacky support for all the other games.
Can we just stop? Things have been resolves, we'll see where things go, we don't need others to keep dragging on a topic that's been done now (ignoring that you are missing the entire point and people aren't against a TAS being made but whatever)
Also before this gets lost
"In terms of other advice, there're a lot of any% routes floating around that people were messing with (though the standard ones are the IBBF one that the top players use, and the early sun route that a few runners like me use). Metroid177 had an interesting route but I'm not sure how itl'l work for TAS; I recommend PMing him on m2k2. He's also been working on a segmented 21% run lately, which has been really sick to watch so far with some cool strats. I seriously doubt that the TAS would actually follow a single route, since there are many other options you can take, but they're valid ideas to mess with."
EDIT Contacting daryoshi is also a good idea. Both daryoshi and metroid177 (both are on m2k2, and both also have twitch accounts and stream so I recommend watching them) have been working on a lot of low% stuff which'll help with learning about general wallcrawling and low% and such.
Joined: 4/21/2004
Posts: 3517
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
I personally do not want to go near a registration at m2k2 with all the past bs with ark and all. We'll sort out contacting them in another way. Here is a stupid and noobish idea, at the very beginning, is it possible to stand on those scanning points? Had this silly idea of scandashing+bomb jumping my way up instead of twice scanning them. Even if it worked, it would probably be slower for ingame time. I am generally trying to be somewhat original with my ideas but I am sure you m2k2:ers have thought and tried it before.
Nitrogenesis wrote:
Guys I come from the DidyKnogRacist communite, and you are all wrong, tihs is the run of the mileniun and everyone who says otherwise dosnt know any bater! I found this run vary ease to masturbate too!!!! Don't fuck with me, I know this game so that mean I'm always right!StupedfackincommunityTASVideoz!!!!!!
Arc wrote:
I enjoyed this movie in which hands firmly gripping a shaft lead to balls deep in multiple holes.
natt wrote:
I don't want to get involved in this discussion, but as a point of fact C# is literally the first goddamn thing on that fucking page you linked did you even fucking read it
Cooljay wrote:
Mayor Haggar and Cody are such nice people for the community. Metro City's hospitals reached an all time new record of incoming patients due to their great efforts :P
Well its your choice to register or not; it's not a big deal and if you have some problem with arkarian/etc, they probably won't be answering questions anyways. People usually don't answer with personal grudges or anything like that. I still think it's a much better use of your time and our time if you do make an account and post questions on threads (and get multiple resopnses from different points of views), instead of here where it's easy for messages to get gobbled up (and where fewer metroid runners visit here).
I don't think it's possible to bomb jump up past the second set of targets (that's what your'e asking about, correct?), and even if it were, it'd definitely be slower than scanning for in-game time; probably real time too since you have to morph then unmorph. Feel free to try though.
Ok so a bunch of people seem to be misinterpreting my statement about running the game. There are differences between console and emulator strategies that have to do with load times. You would come to an understanding of this concept if you had experience with console running, but there is a misinterpretation of what I was implying. In addition, I'm not saying stop the tas until emulator loads are accurate, I'm saying to be aware of the difference in strategies that result from it.
So most people who play this game probably think that console loads are erratic and that you shoot the door to load the next room.
This is not how the game works.
For the following scenarios, I'm making up numbers here.
Look at this scenario:
So in this game you go from one room to the next. One would think that the left path is obviously faster because it gets to the next door sooner.
This is Metroid Prime though.
How rooms in metroid prime load is that there are invisible loading triggers placed in the room. The next room will start loading as soon as you touch the next loading trigger. Ok, I recall shooting the door and being in close proximity to the door will also load the next room, but this is usually not the most effective method of loading rooms unless you are oob and only if the load times are short. Usually the loading trigger encompasses all inbounds paths to the door. The door will open when the following conditions are met:
1) the room finished loading
2) you shot/bombed the door
If you shoot the door before the next room is loaded, the door shield will disappear, but the door will remain shut until the next room has loaded. Thus perceived differences in console load times actually are the result in touching the loading triggers at different times. The actual difference in console load times is relatively small.
Unlike most games, you have control over your character when the game is loading. This leads to some interesting strategies.
Now take a look at our scenario again, but with loading triggers taken into account:
This is huge. This completely changes the strategy here. The right path touches the loading trigger sooner, so that the next room is fully loaded sooner, and you can leave the room sooner than if you went the left path.
However, emulator has shorter load times than console (again, I'm making up numbers here):
This is not the only way this affects strategies.
Look at this scenario:
So there is a scan point by the door. If the doors opened instantly, it might not be worth it to face the scan point and do a dash off of it. However, they don't. If you were not able to control your character when the game is loading, it would also not be worth it. But this is not the case.
As you can see, doing a dash off of the scan target would cost no time with console loads in this scenario.
However, with emulator loads:
It is no longer quite as advantageous.
In TAS, you can build up speed by doing that bunnyhop/r-jump thing itspersonnal mentioned earlier. So therefore, even if its a straight hallway with nothing in it, the strategy still can differ with varying load times.
Look at this scenario:
This scenario is similar to going from Temple Lobby to Artifact Temple. Artifact Temple takes a really long time to load on console. In addition, there are no scan points or anything else in Temple Lobby. I don't know if its 20 seconds on console and 5 seconds on emu or what. I just made up a bunch of numbers. Emu load times are shorter though, and that is what matters for this demonstration. I also don't know the exact size of the loading triggers.
Now normally, you would sit around and wait for the door to open in a run, then boost through it. With TAS tools, you can probably do better than that. There is no sideways speedcap in this game, and therefore the goal in this scenario should be to build up as much speed while waiting for the door to open as possible
Idea on how to do this with console loads:
Now emulator has shorter loading times therefore, emulator has less time to build up speed. Emulator would use this sort of strategy instead:
You would end up in the next room with less speed.
There are a bunch of weird cases that I don't feel like going over because I just wrote a really long post.
Please don't ignore what I'm saying just because I'm saying it and I did a stupid thing. I did kinda do a stupid thing. But please understand this concept. Its absolutely essential.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Dolphin's load times are pretty accurate to an actual gamecube, and have been for a while now. I highly doubt any difference, if any, will be significant enough to affect strategies for anything.
Dolphin's load times are pretty accurate to an actual gamecube, and have been for a while now. I highly doubt any difference, if any, will be significant enough to affect strategies for anything.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
Dolphin's load times are pretty accurate to an actual gamecube, and have been for a while now. I highly doubt any difference, if any, will be significant enough to affect strategies for anything.
EDIT: I was actually quoting a post from 2 months ago, I wasn't expecting itspersonnal to repost that. I was in the middle of responding when I went to go eat dinner.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Since you guys were talking about skipping Thermal Visor, something to bear in mind is this post T3 made recently about the Metroid Prime fight.
some of the phazon beam shots will miss if you're not locked-on even if you're aiming directly at prime (which means you do significantly less damage).
So since not having Thermal Visor doesn't let you lock on it actually does affect gameplay beyond just not being able to see him. I would verify that a 2-pool fight is actually possible without Thermal before deciding to skip it for the run.
I went through and compared my GameCube to Dolphin in the opening areas for load times. Now, I don't have much in the terms of speedrunning knowledge for this game, so I just kind of played through, and tried to measure a few of the doors, and couldn't get a notable difference.
Considering that load times vary per console, version of the game, etc, there will likely be cases where Dolphin is faster. Heck, Dolphin is just simulating a disc drive, and the way that Metroid Prime loads things may hit something that we don't emulate well enough. If you guys are dead set on making the load times more accurate for this game and this game only, I'm sure you could mess with some of the numbers to get it reasonably close.
My point is that anyone TASing the game should be aware of how the load times matter. 2 seconds is big enough to make a difference in all of the scenarios I posted.
Did you try comparing emu to console with the artifact temple load time? It's long enough to be able to tell if there are any differences. All you need to be able to get to it is missiles.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
I went through and compared my GameCube to Dolphin in the opening areas for load times. Now, I don't have much in the terms of speedrunning knowledge for this game, so I just kind of played through, and tried to measure a few of the doors, and couldn't get a notable difference.
well one of the problems with doing this, a lot of rooms are already loaded by the time you get there unless you go really fast, so it makes sense you got those results. The best way to really time loads is to bypass a trigger and load the room manually by shooting the door. The most effect way to do this by going out of bounds (hence my comparison video).
JMC47 wrote:
If you guys are dead set on making the load times more accurate for this game and this game only, I'm sure you could mess with some of the numbers to get it reasonably close.
People have tried this in the past, but due to the way Dolphin emulates loads, changing some "numbers" to fix "load time A" will make "load time B" even more inaccurate.
I have no idea what actually was edited or how it was edited last time I had someone help me mess around with this, I just timed loads with the dolphin builds they made for me. If someone knowledge in how go about trying this actually wants to give it a shot, I'm all for a "Metroid Prime" revision of Dolphin.
Edit: Or maybe the ISO itself could be edited. Assigning a timer to each and every loading trigger that corresponds with the time it takes to load on console? (is there anyone with the know-how to do this?). I'm sure this is against TASvideos rules, but hey, it would solve all our problems.
Completed:
2010-Current | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Individual Level TASes
2014 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 1:05:03.23
2014 | Sonic Adventure 2: Battle - Hero Story (w/ THC98) in 25:11.87
2016 | Metroid Prime - Any% in 00:37 (In-Game Time)
2018 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:42.350
2020 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Any% in 0:39:20.10
2022 | Spongebob: Battle For Bikini Bottom - Cheat% in 1:25.567
Currently working on:
SA2:B DARK STORY
So in this game you go from one room to the next. One would think that the left path is obviously faster because it gets to the next door sooner.
This is Metroid Prime though.
How rooms in metroid prime load is that there are invisible loading triggers placed in the room. The next room will start loading as soon as you touch the next loading trigger. Ok, I recall shooting the door and being in close proximity to the door will also load the next room, but this is usually not the most effective method of loading rooms unless you are oob and only if the load times are short. Usually the loading trigger encompasses all inbounds paths to the door. The door will open when the following conditions are met:
1) the room finished loading
2) you shot/bombed the door
If you shoot the door before the next room is loaded, the door shield will disappear, but the door will remain shut until the next room has loaded. Thus perceived differences in console load times actually are the result in touching the loading triggers at different times. The actual difference in console load times is relatively small.
Unlike most games, you have control over your character when the game is loading. This leads to some interesting strategies.
Now take a look at our scenario again, but with loading triggers taken into account:
This is huge. This completely changes the strategy here. The right path touches the loading trigger sooner, so that the next room is fully loaded sooner, and you can leave the room sooner than if you went the left path.
However, emulator has shorter load times than console (again, I'm making up numbers here):
This is not the only way this affects strategies.
Look at this scenario:
So there is a scan point by the door. If the doors opened instantly, it might not be worth it to face the scan point and do a dash off of it. However, they don't. If you were not able to control your character when the game is loading, it would also not be worth it. But this is not the case.
As you can see, doing a dash off of the scan target would cost no time with console loads in this scenario.
However, with emulator loads:
It is no longer quite as advantageous.
In TAS, you can build up speed by doing that bunnyhop/r-jump thing itspersonnal mentioned earlier. So therefore, even if its a straight hallway with nothing in it, the strategy still can differ with varying load times.
Look at this scenario:
This scenario is similar to going from Temple Lobby to Artifact Temple. Artifact Temple takes a really long time to load on console. In addition, there are no scan points or anything else in Temple Lobby. I don't know if its 20 seconds on console and 5 seconds on emu or what. I just made up a bunch of numbers. Emu load times are shorter though, and that is what matters for this demonstration. I also don't know the exact size of the loading triggers.
Now normally, you would sit around and wait for the door to open in a run, then boost through it. With TAS tools, you can probably do better than that. There is no sideways speedcap in this game, and therefore the goal in this scenario should be to build up as much speed while waiting for the door to open as possible
Idea on how to do this with console loads:
Now emulator has shorter loading times therefore, emulator has less time to build up speed. Emulator would use this sort of strategy instead:
You would end up in the next room with less speed.
There are a bunch of weird cases that I don't feel like going over because I just wrote a really long post.
Please don't ignore what I'm saying just because I'm saying it and I did a stupid thing. I did kinda do a stupid thing. But please understand this concept. Its absolutely essential.
