Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Edited:
By the way, considering that now actually (at least) 11 13 different inbounds (non-major-glitched) options (neglecting sub-categories) for TAS to beat the game with just 14% exist, some of you Super Metroid TASers are pretty lucky that 13% is not a thing yet, because otherwise both Low% TASes (low%speedbooster and low%ice-beam) would be immediately obsolete :P ;)
(Well, rest in peace 14% branches for NTSC, since 13% has been found. At least they all remain for PAL (so far, until the next edit ;) ).)
The 1113 15 options tool-assisted-superplay has, to beat the game with 14% (only remaining for PAL) are given as follows:
5 (now actually 6, and yes that is still true) humanly doable options (so far) (the last one was a very recent discovery, and IceBoots is PAL-only even for TAS):
Gravity-Speedbooster; Gravity-Ice; X-Ray-Ice; IceBoots (HighJump-Ice); IceBooster (Ice-Speedbooster)
8 10 (so far) TAS-only options:
Gravity-Powerbomb; Ice-Powerbomb; Speedbooster-Powerbomb; X-Ray-Powerbomb; X-Ray-Speebooster; Grapple-Speedbooster; Powerbomb-Powerbomb; HighJump-Speedbooster(PAL) (aswell as 14%X-Missile; 14%X-SuperMissile).
So, by far not all 14%categories have corresponding TASes yet, but sadly it seems that none of these options can be reduced to 13% (in PAL´s case).
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
...and IceBoots is PAL-only even for TAS)... IceBooster (Ice-Speedbooster)
I am very interested in this new discovery, any info would be appreciated. I'm particularly curious as to why it's PAL only, I can only guess it has to do with Speed Booster frame-check rules.
Currently obsessed with: Mega Man 2 hacks, SFA3, Super Metroid Zero Mission, MM8BDM (Skulltag MegaMan mod, it's amazing!)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Edited:
Regarding the low%(PAL)options for TAS, including IceBoots-PAL and IceBooster:
In here are playthroughs and tool-assisted demonstrations provided for 11 13 of the 13 15 options TAS has:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5If8zSOO37ZuXY4PmmnNxcvzRm5ak-X5
The exact reason for IceBoots being PAL-only can be seen at 12:20 in here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gw0HpwJh6xM&list=PL5If8zSOO37ZuXY4PmmnNxcvzRm5ak-X5&index=7
The issue for NTSC at that point of escaping the pre-Draygon room is that on PAL all movements of Samus are faster compared to NTSC (but the environment is slower), including higher running speed and higher jumps of all kinds (I guess due to PAL running on 50hz, since then Samus would have her initial jumping speed for 1/50 of a second instead of 1/60 and maybe that enters some calculations in the game´s engine) which is also the reason why the Red Brinstar GGG, the Freeze-GGG and other movement-based maneuvers seem to be PAL-only.
So in PAL one can start such a spinjump on that platform under water and reach the upper wall at about the height of the watersurface to start the walljump-climbing, but on NTSC, the spinjump does not reach high enough to start these walljumps and to my research it seems to be impossible to climb even on PAL with HighJump suitless past a 1-block overhang via some kinds of walljumps while Samus´ distance to the wall is large enough such that the walljump-check still occurs and can actually be used for a walljump (in order to start a walljump right beneath the 1-block overhang to be able to walljump off that overhang-block itself and then climb further up).
So far, there are not many completed runs of this category done yet, but they can be found in the PAL section on DeerTier:
http://deertier.com/Leaderboard/LowPercentIceboots
Now for IceBooster (which is finally a category on DeerTier): The only visualization I can provide at the moment is my (first of its kind) single-segment 6 hours completion of the category, a twitch highlight (2 parts):
http://www.twitch.tv/eterniseddragon/profile
In this category one had to obtain BlueSuit via my new improved Varia-BlueSuit method that does not need X-Ray or Grapple anymore that caused existence of IceBooster (aswell as Grapple-Speedbooster for TAS):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43qqGNKmoHQ
And then, one has to climb up the mainstreet and mount everest room with just Ice-beam and get past colosseum room and almost kill Draygon, then let him carry up Samus to the platform next to the entrance door to kill Draygon from up there to then finally be able to use the BlueSuit in order to escape pre-Draygon room with a shinespark. The rest is done similarly to other low%categories, but this Maridian segment that needs to be done in 1 attempt (since BlueSuit will not be kept after dying and reloading the game e.g. in the snail-room savestation) makes it the so far hardest 14%category that is humanly doable.
More information can be found in the Super Metroid Speedrunning guide:
http://deanyd.net/sm/index.php?title=Main_Page
More general information about the vast progress/discoveries [e.g. lots of BlueSuit methods, shinespark-suit, R-Mode Force-Stand and applications, crystal flashes in various poses/scenarios, (multi-)mid-air-springballjumps (that can be used by TAS to do some kind of IBJ suitless underwater infinitely high), exploration analysis, analysis of several categories and item-tree-analysis, X-Mode, inbounds Botwoon-skip, grapple-bombjump-jump, bomb-grapplehang-teleportation, humanly doable HIBJ and DIBJ aswell as 1-wall-underwater walljump-climbing,...] made in the last year could be found in trick/glitch/sequence-break/detail visualizations on my channel or my metconst thread that I already posted above:
https://www.youtube.com/user/eternisedDragon7/videoshttp://forum.metroidconstruction.com/index.php/topic,3204.0.html
On the other side, massive Out of Bounds and WrongWarp research has been done aswell, e.g. by Sniqq/Sniqwc3.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Holy moly, thank you for the thorough and detailed reply, Aran Jaeger. Super Metroid is one of those games that I simply can't know enough about, even just as a semi-casual RTA'er. I'm gonna have some fun running (more like jogging) these new routes!
Currently obsessed with: Mega Man 2 hacks, SFA3, Super Metroid Zero Mission, MM8BDM (Skulltag MegaMan mod, it's amazing!)
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Edited:
So, it was somewhat clear for a while now that most of the longer Super Metroid (hack) TASes here on TASVideos are outdated, since new applicable discoveries were found. But at least now, even from my (yet?) non-speedrunner´s/non-TASer´s perspective, it is quite obvious that at least the SM TASes [except Low%Ice and the rather short "game end glitch" TAS by total, sniq, cpadolf] are (again) some steps away from being close to optimal. Just one major reason for this is the variety of instances in which the new Shinespark-Suit method can be applied in a quick manner:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXm-Z_H-cq0
Another (though more specific) reason would be the applications of a certain mode of the game that can be obtained via specific setups, of which one of those allows to potentially change the RBO TAS-route:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxK6J-fQ1M
Thus, essentially, some TAS categories of Super Metroid are free to be beaten by anyone now (note that, in order to prevent prejudice, I did not say that such a process would be "easy"). This last statement here is not to be interpreted as diminishment of the TASers´ and other peoples´ work/effort that has entered these and/or previous TASes, but rather that a new potential for noticable improvement exists.
Maybe I will look into the given TASes later and make a list of potential ideas/improvements for each of those. I would also like to optimize the TAS-routes for the remaining 13-2(+4)=11(+4) 14%(PAL)categories (X-Ray-Ice; HighJump-Ice-PAL; Ice-Speedbooster; Gravity-Powerbomb; Ice-Powerbomb; Speedbooster-Powerbomb; X-Ray-Powerbomb; X-Ray-Speebooster; Grapple-Speedbooster; Powerbomb-Powerbomb; HighJump-Speedbooster(PAL) (aswell as X-Missile; X-SuperMissile)), since if it turns out that TASes of some of those categories are more entertaining/exciting than the given SM 14% TASes on TASVideos of the old/well-known/less-sophisticated 14%Gravity-Ice/14%Gravity-Speedbooster categories, then such TASes of new Low% categories might replace the given ones [unless a 13% option w.r.t. the Low% category´s rule-set is found (which it is so far only for NTSC)].
[All this post is meant to achieve is to motivate people to work on improvements (new routes/strategies) for (the given) TASes.]
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Wow, those are some impressive glitches! It's frankly amazing that new glitches are still being discovered in this game, given how many people have dedicated massive amounts of time to experimenting with it.
Pyrel - an open-source rewrite of the Angband roguelike game in Python.
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Posts: 1057
Location: United States
Looking at the videos it is hard to see exactly what the gains are from the shinespark delay. Does this grant the user one more additional spark? Is there a time constraint on the second spark? I am now brain storming how this could save time in the current runs.
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US
Wow that Shine Spark Delay Spike Spark is really interesting!!!
I'm sure Spring Ball will make some interesting things happen with it as well being that you can push into spikes above you and to the side of you. Also does it apply to enemies as well?
This delayed shinespark is a really interesting thing for sure.
hero, it gives one additional spark after the first one you are forced to use to leave the floating position. It seems you are only allowed to release the first shinespark once the counter reaches 0 for the first one, otherwise you will not be given the additional spark. The cool thing about this one is that you can run without loosing it. I've tried to see if the stationary spark works when using the grapple glitch, but it seems it doesn't. The problem for this to save time is that you loose too much time setting up the trick, so you would need a place with the conditions to do the trick while waiting for something to happen. The only places I could think of was after Killing Draygon (you can use the hubs on the wall for the same effect as the spikes), so you could hold run all the way while cleaning the Space Jump room and leaving Draygon's lair. I don't know if it would save any time or if it's even possible to setup the trick without loosing time. Another place that you could setup the trick to save time is while waiting for the wallcrawler to clean the blocks on the way to spring ball, but this trick doesn't seem to work with enemies. Also, if you charge a normal shinespark and release it, the additional shinespark will desapear, which is a shame. I tried to find a way to leave the stationary position without having to wait too long or shinespark, but couldn't find anything useful.
4n6, It's possible to push Samus against the spikes above or to the side of her, you just have to jump and quickly morph, then unmorph in the right momment.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I am glad that Super Metroid TASer(s?) still appear to be present in here although I arrived at this place here so late (but well, looking into this game in detail and documentation of results of tests of ideas takes its time...) compared to the old times when more people were active. ^_^
Now, only CPadolf would have to manage getting active (or having time) for some teamwork at TAS improvements for the categories, and not only posting at Metroid 2002´s social board... (never mind)
I also wonder if he is (i) informed/up to date about the state of the art regarding recent developments and if he (ii) still is interested/motivated or even working in TASing projects or if he retired from doing so.
I am sure it would be possible to in an instant motivate at least some of the many active, experienced and competent people/speedrunners over at DeerTier for gathering strategies and ideas of all kinds. One just would have to have some promising TASing project(s) running where people find ways to contribute.
Kejardon could have been useful for looking into and explaining some of the new quirks aswell, but I think we have enough people to help out for that now. Also, kind of sad that SaturnTAS is not involved in Super Metroid anymore. I don´t know about Kriole´s and Taco´s activities though.
Does this grant the user one more additional spark?
Yes, it does. It is effectively the same state that Samus enters when the pose change that is forced upon Samus by getting grabbed by Draygon happens during a that way interrupted/exited Crystal Flash such that the Shinespark-Charge timer that runs parallel to the CF stops and does not arrive at 0, and thus allows Samus to shinespark at any time afterwards.
Is there a time constraint on the second spark?
Stability properties of the Shinespark-Suit that is obtained in the refered video can be found at the following pages. Note that both pages are not sufficiently updated though.
i) http://deanyd.net/sm/index.php?title=Yellow_Suit_Glitch
ii) http://forum.metroidconstruction.com/index.php/topic,3204.0.html [at my 4th post in there, in particular in chapter "K" of my not yet fully updated mechanics compendium]
Also, note that this second link here can be found on this very page of this thread above this post twice already, so it is not my fault for not providing (re-)sources and I do not want to fill this thread here by copying the new discoveries that were made in the last two years into this place aswell.
But in principle, the idea is to use TAS-short-charges at any kinds of places where this might ultimately (and not just locally) save time, then unmorph while touching a spike and executing a midair stationary jump to initiate a delayed shinespark (that can be started at any time and shall preferably by itself already allow Samus to move quickly towards the desired direction, but needs a certain delay in order to provide the FlashSuit´s activation), whose crash-animation will be exited with a Shinespark-Suit that shall then later be used without the need to obtain echoes and crouch the next time.
Such places might be at Kraid/Crocomire/Draygon/MotherBrain 1/X-Ray-hall/WS Bowling room/Colosseum (fullhalfie room)/Craterian Powerbomb room
[aswell as in general any places that provide space and spikes where one at some point anyways has to wait for certain events to be triggered]
For further informations, I would recommend looking into SUPERMETROIDFTP´s youtube channel ( https://www.youtube.com/user/SUPERMETROIDFTP/videos ), and to be more specific, e.g. this instance of the FlashSuit´s application near X-Ray (although there would be a lot more in general, depending on the given category): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCDGez_i4R0
There can also be an example of a potential application of my Varia-BlueSuit method via bomb-knockback be found (but in this case using the centered animation that is induced by collecting Gravity, instead):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9PcpiSPx8I
Also does it apply to enemies as well?
To my knowledge, plant spikes, the special type of spikes near Kraid, Draygon´s turrets or normal spike blocks (and maybe a few more objects that are not creatures as defined in SMILE, which is a useful editor and extremely handy for testing things quickly) need to be used for the knockback.
The reason for this is assumed to be the same as for the 0-distance spark (i.e. X-Mode, a state in which Samus can move rather freely while X-Raying, which is demonstrated in some of FTP´s videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqPlJ__Lm50 ) that also needs knockback by certain objects. I know that Kejardon wrote some information about this maybe in here or at the Metroid 2002 forum years ago, and I might be wrong, but I think hero of the day found that quirk that Kejardon then analysed (although he didn´t even find that one can get a BlueSuit out of that state...).
Edit: Regarding the 100% category, there would also be my rather old shaktool strategy as potential improvement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkN67MtFGq4
2nd edit: Actually, I think I should also mention that there now exist (even humanly) doable (inbounds) methods to break into LNF at its exit (which actually doesn´t even need ScrewAttack or Echoes) and to get from the left to the right past the Red Brinstar green gate even for NTSC and not only for PAL now (but only in a slow manner), which is presented by the Out of Bounds master himself, Sniqwc3: http://www.twitch.tv/sniqwc3/b/672892723 (4th edit: Seems like sniq did not highlight this broadcast :/)
In his highlights, one can also find a mass of glitched OoB stuff that he researched. There is really interesting stuff among those things: http://www.twitch.tv/sniqwc3/profile
3rd edit: I forgot to mention that the FlashSuit´s creation using this "spike-spark" potentially could aswell speed up the process of climbing up the Maridian Mountain room (Everest) suitless in the RBO category, since the current way of getting up there does not use a shinespark in that room/area.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
Joined: 11/26/2010
Posts: 444
Location: New York, US
Can you do a free spark off a free spark if you spike boost again?
I thought of a possible Real Time application for it. The idea is you do it in cracoland and use it to get a spark for the x-ray room. Then in the X-Ray room you do it again to get a spark for the way back.
Also thanks reeve I didn't realize how noobie my mind was working until you answered that question. LOL.
Haven't thought of any possible TAS applications yet but, I'm sure we will all try to think of something.
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
Can you do a free spark off a free spark if you spike boost again?
Yes, sure one can, since one only needs to be able to start a delayed shinespark off such spike-type blocks in an appropriate manner (which also makes sense, since in the case of normally charging a shinespark and then using it for the spike-spark, one aswell only is in a state with active shinespark timer after already having lost echoes, or in different words, Samus does not have any additional crucial properties in the case of charging a shinespark, compared to having FlashSuit, in that regard).
And yes indeed, chaining setups for those spike-sparks together in such a way that the shinespark out of that Blue-Suit hovering state carries Samus to the desired place and to have then still one free shinespark left is one possible application of which one can think.
I thought of a possible Real Time application for it. The idea is you do it in cracoland and use it to get a spark for the x-ray room. Then in the X-Ray room you do it again to get a spark for the way back.
Well, this spike-spark method can be executed in real-time, that is true (e.g. after some experimenting, a viable method to do this, although it then still kept being rather inconsistent, seemed to be using a very quick sequence of 3 button inputs: Jump (about right at the time when Samus gets hit in ballform by a spike), then Up, and Jump (where Up already has to be released before Jump is pressed the second time); and all of that within the short period of frames that the skipe-knockback provides for a midair-jump). The Up input would be used to stand up from a midair-crouch, which might not be needed, but then the timing is probably different for starting the shinespark off a crouched pose.
So, for the 100% category (for human speedruns), after opening the blue-shell to the left in Crocomire´s room via wrap-around-shot near the E-Tank (which hits a copy of the door-shell at the out of bounds to the right side of the room where the left side of the room starts repeating that causes all those blue-shell copies to open, which one could e.g. see using some lua scripts, which is also the same for the gauntlet wrap-around-shot at landing site), humans would in theory have some time for attempts (depending on the energy after getting Crocomire´s E-Tank) at getting into the Blue-Suit hovering state above the ground, facing left and at the right height using the spike-wall such that when starting the midair-shinespark horizontally to the left as soon as the invisible wall to the left disappears, Samus manages to enter the door to get close to Crocomire´s powerbombs; one could lateron (with certain restrictions to not accidentially start a shinespark) enter the X-Ray hall (pre-X-Ray room) to have 1 try at the spike-spark setup again. And if executed correctly, the blue shinespark would take one to the left, leaving Samus with another free spark, which in theory could be used at the left side of the X-Ray hall either for a shinespark back of for another single try at that setup to get a shinespark to the right with Samus having a free spark again which maybe could be used afterwards at some place.
But I have no estimates on how useful such strategies actually could be for humans, especially considering that going for chained setups would be somewhat risky.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
From what I've tested, there are 2 frames to unmorph and only 1 frame to activate the shinespark in the right moment. If you unmorph in the 1st possible frame you have 2 frames to shinespark, but the first frame won't trigger the stationary animation, only the second frame will give you the blue suit. If you unmorph in the second possible frame you will have only 1 frame to activate the shinespark, which is the magic frame for the stationary Samus.
The idea of using Crocomire's spiked wall is pretty good and it's probably the only possible way to take advantage from the first shinespark. The only possible spot you could use the extra spark to save time would be after collecting the Varia Suit, by shinesparking over Kraid's room and the next one. That's because you charge another shinespark to use in the area outside the Spazer Room and that would nulify the extra spark. The problem here is that you won't be able to collect Croc's drops (unless there's a way to manipulate them to be close to Samus) and you would need more health for the shinespark after Varia. Also you would need one extra Super to open the door before releasing the extra spark.
All those low% routes are very interesting!
I'm just wondering about the spiral-path. Is it just to pass the low part of the room just above the breakable pipe, using the air in the room above (like here)? If so, this is such a detour for one single portion of a room!
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
I'm just wondering about the spiral-path. Is it just to pass the low part of the room just above the breakable pipe, using the air in the room above (like here)? If so, this is such a detour for one single portion of a room!
Edited:
Well yes, that is actually the exact reason why this "spiral-path" was used and at those times when I made those demonstration videos had to be used, to my knowledge.
Okay, maybe first I should give an overview of the 13 15 14%(PAL)categories. A nice way that I use to keep the structure of how those low% categories are related to each other in mind is by the following (now actually outdated) graph: ("PB" denotes 10 powerbombs instead of 5, i.e. 1 additional powerbomb pack)
.........Grapple..................
..............|........................
.........Speed-------------....
......../....|.....\..............|...
X-Ray--PB--Gravity......|...
........\....|.../................|...
...........Ice ---------------....
.............|.........................
......HighJump..................
Every edge of this graph corresponds to exactly one 14% branch and uses its neighbouring vertices as main items. All of those branches have some freedom with respect to the ammunition combination used (5M+15SM / 10M+10SM) and or the combination of tanks that are used (E-Tanks / R-Tanks), and all of those exist for PAL and NTSC (but for NTSC a 13% option exists now), except HighJump-Ice aswell as HighJump-Speed (which is not shown in the above graph) which is PAL-only even for TAS.
Now for this "spiral-path" issue:
For Gravity-Ice, Gravity-Speed, Gravity-PB aswell as for HighJump-Ice(PAL), X-Ice, Ice-PB, Speed-Ice and Highjump-Speed(PAL) it is clear that one can enter Maridia from below by breaking the glasstube and continuing to climb upwards (although it might be somewhat more complicated in the suitless cases that involve Ice), and yes, keylie, for some reason I took this long detour in my 14%Ice-PB demonstration video >_>
I quickly tested for 14%(PAL)Grapple-Speed, that after obtaining FlashSuit via Spike-Spark instead of using the Varia-BlueSuit method (which would not allow Samus to keep the ability to use a shinespark later if one starts running) one can gain enough speed when running towards the broken glasstube room (after breaking the tube) and gravitation-jump into this room, then morph and unmorph in order to be able to shoot upwards to open the upper blue-shell there without activating the free spark, and (e.g. via turnaround animation to wiggle past the opening shell while keeping upwards momentum) get to the bottom (but seemingly not higher up onto one of the platforms, at least in NTSC) of the Maridian Mainstreet room, and in principle, one can there wait for the single off-screen moving crab to crawl around the outer boundaries of the room and come back at the left side to then use a Grapple-Bombjump-Jump (i.e. this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEu4F_BnDsI ) there (which could not be done if Samus had BlueSuit) using this crab to start TAS-underwater-climbing up the left wall and continue as usual.
But then, after necessarily using the free spark for pre-Botwoon room, since there is was no opportunity to gain a BlueSuit in the area after climbing up the Everest in these conditions (which is still true), one would have to gain another FlashSuit (or BlueSuit), preferably in the large horizontal mocktroid room (where full-halfie in RTA runs is used, i.e. Colosseum) using the spikes above the water surface, which is so far an unsolved issue (which is so far true only for PAL).
Edit: Otherwise, one actually does not anymore need to use a BlueSuit and take the spiral-path in 14%Grapple-Speed, due to Tewtal´s Slope-Spark.
In 14%(PAL)X-Speed, in order to avoid the spiral-path, provided God-Mode can be obtained while having BlueSuit (which seems unlikely, and FlashSuit would be cancelled by X-Ray), there would be the option to get the Varia-BlueSuit, then do the (inbounds) God-Mode setup into the upper powerbomb room in Red Brinstar from the right using one of the crawling worms for the Red Brinstar GGG (that Sniqwc3 also confirmed even being humanly doable on console) to get directly into the Everest room to get past this room with a shinespark, without the need to climb up the previous rooms at all for (NTSC and) PAL.
If this is not an option, then, after entering Maridia from below, there would still be the option left to do inbounds X-Ray-Climb with BlueSuit starting in the door-shell of the lowest horizontally connecting door within the Mainstreet room.
In 14%X-PB, after obtaining FlashSuit (for example) in Wrecked Ship using R(eserve)-Mode, one could use the free shinespark for the Varia-BlueSuit (but is then not allowed to unpause the game for the following part, since that would cancel BlueSuit), and then one could enter Maridia from below using a gravitation-jump from inside the breaking glasstube and do inbounds X-Ray-Climb the same way as in the 14%X-Speed option.
Then there is the last remaining option, 14%(PAL)Speed-PB, and I don´t think this branch can avoid the spiral-path, actually (which is still true).
Important edit: Sniqwc3 confirmed that 14%PB-PB (for PAL and NTSC) is for TAS inbounds also doable now, namely by activating a Crystal Flash at the right frame with the right timing of starting to ride an elevator downwards to get FlashSuit!
Furthermore: 14%(PAL)X-Missile and 14%(PAL)X-SuperMissile are now possible using 2 R-Tanks and the only on the outer surface clock-wise moving crab in Everest room for direct God-Mode in Mainstreet room, then indirect G-Mode in Everest room, then luring the same crab to the left door, using X-Ray to exit G-Mode while aligning to the door-shell to get stuck in there for knockback using the crab to start X-Mode to walk past the mountain.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
I'd like to thank you, Aran Jaeger, for sharing all these informations. Some of them are very useful for TASing. Good luck in your search for new stuff.
Having recently discovered that the computer I'm now using can run SNESHawk at full speed, I kinda want to get into Super Metroid TASing. So questions.
1. Is there any particular method I should use to familiarize myself with how Super Metroid plays under tool-assisted conditions? Or just do test runs and see what happens?
2. I would guess that having the resources page for Super Metroid open in the background, or on a second screen, is ideal for quick references. Agree or disagree?
3. Is there a repository of Lua scripts and memory addresses I can use?
Just as a side note, my goal with this is to eventually do a 100% TAS of Dependence, a hack by BlackTelomeres which I posted about way back when I first joined.
Virtually all the useful memory addresses are listed on the resources page. The problem with it is that the rest of the page is about 6-7 years out of date (this is my fault as well) and thus missing a lot of new tricks discovered since then. This is important because some of them are, by this point, widely used and can save a lot of time, such as the various state-preserving and state-canceling tricks and some of the left+right tricks (that, although technically known for a decade, have found new uses).
Your best bet would be to learn the basics listed there (watch the demos!) then load some of the runs made in the recent 3-4 years and watch them in frame advance with input display on. Certain tricks will not be easy to pick up, but you might be able to infer their meaning from general concepts: for instance, look at how players use mockball immediately after picking up the first missile pack while landing on the part of the still-opening hatch in ball form; despite the sudden change in vertical position the movement isn't interrupted. This works because there are several frames during morphing animation where it cannot be interrupted and all of its properties (such as forward momentum) are fixed—a trait it shares with many other uninterruptible animations. By the time this "grace period" ends the ball is already on level ground and can continue moving with the forward momentum it gained earlier.
Make sure to experiment heavily with damage boosts: depending on the direction Samus is facing and the amount of frames you're waiting before initiating the backflip your positioning will be different. Same with bomb jumps.
A good rule of thumb is that running at full speed (even pre-Speed Booster) is always faster than jumping or rolling, so if you have enough ground to gain full momentum, minimize your air time. When this isn't possible, see if you can CWJ or use mockball to preserve momentum for as long as feasible. Keep in mind that running down slopes is sensitive to arm-pumping because what arm-pumping does is shifting your position forward by a pixel, which may lead to your hitbox losing contact with the ground. In this case you will want to skip some of the pumps or time them differently to remain on the ground.
Another good rule of thumb is that it doesn't matter how early a chain of events starts, the only important thing is how early it finishes. For instance, you can pick up an item earlier than in a published run, but will lose the advantage (and more) by the time you've run out of the room because the positioning that allows faster pickup doesn't put you into an optimal escape setup. This is why you should always measure your optimization against other runs in points that are fully comparable to avoid the risk of "unforeseen" losses. A good example is the Draygon kill: you can deliver the finishing blow as soon as it shows up from the edge of the screen, but it will take longer for its dying animation to reach the center of the screen.
A bit more on using run button: if you want to gain as much momentum as possible while waiting for the door to open or something like that, the first thing you do is skipping arm pumps as they don't make any difference to Samus's physical momentum. If that isn't enough, you can try skip pressing the run button on some frames: due to accumulation of speed, skipping an earlier keypress would put you far behind compared to skipping a later keypress (that happens shortly before the speed is capped). If all else fails, there are momentum preservation techniques that involve releasing the direction button at the start of the run.
Warp wrote:
Edit: I think I understand now: It's my avatar, isn't it? It makes me look angry.
Boct,
I don't have much to say in this post, and it's probably best to learn by doing anyway, but if you ever have questions or would like a review on one of your TAS attempts, feel free to PM me. I'd be happy to provide as much help as you want. :)
As for your questions,
boct1584 wrote:
1. Is there any particular method I should use to familiarize myself with how Super Metroid plays under tool-assisted conditions? Or just do test runs and see what happens?
Jumping into TASing and getting familiar with the game is the way to go, in my opinion. There's a lot of little quirks in the way this game works that you'll learn about mostly by TASing and comparing your work to existing runs to figure out how/why they're faster (just don't get discouraged by this!).
I recommend not starting out with Ceres or early Crateria, or if you do, don't worry too much about your performance; they are both deceptively difficult areas to optimize. (Then again, I started out by spending like 3 months in Ceres >_>)
boct1584 wrote:
2. I would guess that having the resources page for Super Metroid open in the background, or on a second screen, is ideal for quick references. Agree or disagree?
Sure, why not?
boct1584 wrote:
3. Is there a repository of Lua scripts and memory addresses I can use?
Not sure about lua scripts (I've only ever used one that displayed the hitboxes on everything), but as moozooh said, most useful memory addresses can be found on the tricks page. The rest can be found in Kej's RAM map. There's a few useful things in there, such as camera y position to help optimize doors for realtime.
This might not be too interesting thing to mention, but I found a way to charge shinespark in shorter distance (big thanks to eterniseddragon for suggesting speedbooster on / off) by starting the charge with speedbooster turned off and just before 1st speedtap, turn it on from menu!
My best result this far was 4096 subpixels shorter distance compared to the input pattern that is on tasvideos resources page! This could still be possible to improve so I didn't give up yet. Smv shows the first 2 taps only though.
I'll make better smv later with possible improvement
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/37671485/935px%2020479sub.smv
EDIT:
8192 subpixels ahead already!!
http://dehacked.2y.net/microstorage.php/info/1772552352/935px%2016383sub.smv
Not sure how much shorter the input Cpadolf found is, but I know it is shorter than the one in the resources page. The inputs are:
Press forward for 3 frames, release for 1 frame, forward for 4 frames, release for 1 frame, forward for 4 frames, release for 1 frame, forward for 4 frames, release for 1 frame, forward for 2 frames, forward + run for 3 frames, release forward but keep holding run for 1 frame, press forward + run for 1 frame. These are the inputs to register the first boost on the counter, for the other 3 just keep holding forward and press run on the key frames.
I think he checked against the correct pattern because it was 8192 subpixels shorter than the one I use. I think the reason is that you run no risk of triggering the longer running animation that kicks in if you hold dash too much with speedbooster equipped, this lets you hold dash more to create longer periods of "momentum cooldown" without reaching high running speeds or making the running animation longer. Could probably be quite a bit shorter still.
