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Posted: 1/8/2015 9:36 PM
Post subject: Q*Bert 3
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JoshButro
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I am currently working on a TAS of this game. Through all the research I have done, I can not find any current TAS or WIP or RTA speedrun of this game (besides my own). I know of 2 people on Twitch (myself being one of them), that would have knowledge/strats for completing this game as it is a giant routing puzzle. If anyone else has any suggestions that would be helpful, or any input on this game, i would love to hear it. So far the TAS is complete through Level 3-4 (Stage 12 of 80) with the levels being as optimized as possible (except 1-4 having a 5f more optimal path due to lag from enemies and an unused Freezeball which will be included in a second TAS) Thanks.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/8/2015 11:06 PM
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ars4326
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How's it going, Josh? Welcome to the community :) I can't say I've ever come across any Q-bert 3 runs, myself. Sometimes that's how it goes, though, and you just have to break new ground and be "the first", lol. As for suggestions, it'd be a good idea to regularly upload your WIP progress (you should have a personal user storage account that you can log into on the front page) so others can watch and give advice/constructive feedback. I was a fan of the original on NES. I look forward to your progress!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 1/9/2015 1:58 AM
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Spikestuff
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Please give us a file before you go through with it just incase this one isn't interesting (Which I hope that isn't true)
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Posted: 1/9/2015 3:10 AM
Post subject: Thanks
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JoshButro
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Thanks for the warm welcome ars. I have a feeling i am breaking new ground. I uploaded my WIP so far, and the game isn't even listed, so this is new territory. Keep in mind, it is Q*Bert, so i don't know how interesting some people may think it is. It is routing jumping on blocks and manipulating enemies and objects. I think it's interesting, but i like Q*Bert, and this is my fun project. I uploaded WIP, so let me know, the first few levels are slow based on them being essentially beginner levels. Level 5 the 'paint' (way to change colors of blocks) gets harder, so that will really show off what the TAS can do.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/9/2015 5:58 PM
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Warepire
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Quick-link for the WIP: http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/19987439126338661
Posted: 1/10/2015 12:15 AM
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ars4326
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I watched your WIP, and I think it is coming along pretty good! The game's pace is a bit slower, but I definitely like the wide stage variety, so far. In case you're not doing it yet, I do recommend "time-attacking" each stage, or major section, upon completion to ensure that you have the fastest solution down (it's done wonders for me!). I also checked your beginning input and was able to save 7 frames, due to better optimization. I used Bizhawk, which I noticed has a more user-friendly lag counter than SNES 9x 1.52. Specifically, the game allows the earliest inputs at frames 852 & 964. In case you ever want to switch to Bizhawk, it does allow you to rewind movies in real-time; which makes performing spot optimizations muuuuch easier :) Looking forward to your next WIP!
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 1/10/2015 2:55 PM
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JoshButro
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Thank you for the feedback. The beginning levels are a bit slow paced, there isn't anything that can be done to speed them up. Taking an optimal path is about the only way. The speed starts to pick up in later levels. I do 'time-attack' each screen to ensure it is the fastest time, and how solved each screen a few different ways to ensure the optimal solution. Thank you for checking my optimization. There may be a few frames here and there on menus, as this is my first TAS, and it is still a learning process. I use Snes9x v1.53 for now because I have used it for a while, I downoaded Bizhawk and will take a look at it. I usually work on this TAS everyday, so wasn't sure if uploading WIPs everyday was excessive or not. My main goal is to make a deathless run of this game, to show off how this game can be played. I have completed through Level 6-1 and have uploaded that WIP at http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20020734002551220
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/10/2015 3:12 PM
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Samsara
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Snes9x is alright, though it's considered deprecated by the site now, thanks to Bizhawk's SNES core being far more accurate. I'd suggest finishing up this first run on Snes9x, then doing a more optimized run on Bizhawk using everything you learned from the first run. There's a place for Q*Bert on the site, so don't worry about the game choice.
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Posted: 1/10/2015 6:16 PM
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JoshButro
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So far from what i have read, SNES9x ver 1.53 is ok to use. I am about 26% through the game, so I am learning the TAS routes on this first TAS, so i will finish this one on SNES9x, then as more things are pointed out, do a second TAS on Bizhawk. Like I've said, my main goal is to demonstrate a deathless optimized run, because no TAS has been made of this game before, so it's my project to make the very first one. The link for Q*Bert you provided llinks to the NES version, not the SNES Q*Bert 3 version. Many people haven't played the SNES version, because it is different than NES. The NES version is 36 pyramids that get harder. The SNES version is 80 screens that are all different and more complex.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/10/2015 7:07 PM
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Samsara
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Well, you mentioned that you didn't know how interesting people thought Q*bert was, so I was just pointing out that the run we have on the site was pretty well-received, so this one shouldn't be any different, especially if it's more complex than the NES version.
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warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Posted: 1/10/2015 11:05 PM
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JoshButro
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AH, i misunderstood, sorry about that. I have watched that NES Q*Bert TAS a few times, it's a really good one. Playing RTA, people don't show much interest, but TASing it, I've received some great positive feedback to show off what this TAS could do. It is more complex, and looks good so far. I usually work on it some everyday, so there should be plenty of progress on WIPs daily. Just more screens added each time.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/12/2015 5:31 AM
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JoshButro
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20056401274897975 Here is the latest TAS WIP that is 60% through the normal game (through Level 12-4). It is turning into a very fast run compared to RTA.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/13/2015 2:09 AM
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ars4326
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I just watched your WIP, and I unfortunately got a desync at around the beginning of stage 10-2 (maybe because I'm using snes9x 1.52?). Otherwise, it's starting to shape up! I liked how you took advantage of those annoying green dudes, in certain spots, to make them do some of the work for you (they annoyed me to no end, as a kid lol). .
"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." - 1 Corinthians 2:9
Posted: 1/13/2015 5:20 PM
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JoshButro
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Im not sure on that. I use v1.53, so v1.52 may have an issue reading .smv files from a version after it. I don't know on the desync question because this is my first TAS, I'm still learning the emulators. There are some screens i can use the green guys (Sam and Slick) to my advantage. They will only change paint from 2>1, 3>2, or 1>2(in a 3 paint color level), so I can use them to eliminate some jumps. In the beginning levels where speed is slower, a jump from block to block takes 33 frames, so any block the Sam/Slick jumps on saves ~.55 seconds per jump, but is less in later levels, but any timed saved is the idea.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/14/2015 6:26 AM
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JoshButro
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20101699169599030 TAS through level 20-1, i will probably be finished tomorrow, and watch it through again to see,
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/14/2015 6:29 PM
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JoshButro
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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20112709402709039 i believe it is complete if anyone has any feedback on it. thanks everyone
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/15/2015 4:36 PM
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JoshButro
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More questions from me blowing up my own thread. I was thinking for submission where it talks about Stage by Stage comments, of grouping those by Level and not by screen. I don't think anyone wants to read 80 different stage comments, so 20 will be enough. It may take me a day or two to type this up.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/20/2015 10:03 PM
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JoshButro
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game has been submitted for review and voting, any support is appreciated
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 1/28/2015 7:57 PM
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JoshButro
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Now, I am working on a more detailed, version 2.0 TAS for this game. I am using Bizhawk 1.9.1 and I love this TASeditor it has, so expect alot, as I ask for feedback and such. The first movie was accepted even though it got very very little feedback. I hope this one receives more feedback. The first big difference in v2 is turning off music and backgrounds, they lag the game, about 1-2 seconds a level. So 6 seconds to turn those off is made up by ~80 seconds over the run. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/20428769902681613 level 1
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 2/1/2015 9:38 PM
Post subject: Breakthrough
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JoshButro
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A discovery, a breakthrough, a... disappointment. To read: First column is frame count for TAS v1 Snes9x Second column is TAS v2 Bizhawk 1.9.1 Third Column is TAS v1 done on Bizhawk 1.9.1 [as a control to compare Snes9xv1.53 to Bizhawk 1.9.1] Results: Turning backgrounds and music off DOES NOT AFFECT Gameplay, however it affects the load times between levels. The intermediate number show frame difference. Frame difference for gameplay is negligible. Frames saved are loading time between levels.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 2/1/2015 9:42 PM
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Nach
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Did you test what happens if you only turn off backgrounds or only turn off music?
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 2/5/2015 3:35 PM
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JoshButro
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I am currently testing that, I have been busy the last couple days to fully test it, but i should have an answer today or tomorrow. My guess is music shouldn't affect it, but i didn't think backgrounds had that much of an affect.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 2/5/2015 6:18 PM
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JoshButro
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so this is interesting. if the table is hard to read, i'll explain. I have ran the game with Backgrounds ON and Music ON (TASv1) Backgrounds OFF and Music OFF (TASv2) Backgrounds OFF and Music ON (Test1) Backgrounds ON and Music OFF (Test2) I found an interesting result. Using the options menu takes ~360 frames. The Intro for the Level number always takes the same number of frames (bkgd/music doesnt matter) [3 frames different is optimization] The 'Loading Time' for the Level is 97frames for Bkgd OFF/Music OFF and Bkgd ON/Music OFF, and 182 Frames for Bkgd ON/Music ON and Bkgd OFF/Music ON, -so music OFF is a faster loading time, backgrounds have no effect. Level 1-1 is played at ~1122 +/- 2 frames regardless of bkgd/music The 1-2 Loading time is 577 Music ON vs 502 Music OFF, again bkgds make no difference. Level 1-2 playtime is ~913 +/- 1 frame, regardless of bkgd/music. The 1-3 Loading time is 580 Music ON vs 512 Music OFF, again bkgds make no difference. --In conclusion, the backgrounds have no effect on the time difference of the game, the Music does. Has anyone seen this before, because this doesn't seem to make sense, but that's what the numbers show.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/11/2016 12:09 AM
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JoshButro
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Version 2 of the TAS has started. I'll work on it a couple nights a week, so no estimated completion date at this time. Just some notes I'll be adding to this, if anyone else has any comments or suggestions. As tested before, turning the music off saves over 60 frames, possibly as much as 90 frames per playable screen, so 80 screens x 60 to 90 frames = a whole ton of frames lol. The options menu loses 300 frames, but makes up for it, but the end of Level 1. Crossover - jumping on a block that is already painted the final color and does not change its color. A wasted necessary jump. 1-1 Q*Bert jumps at 35 frames per jump. just a fun fact. So far 9 frames were saved on Level 1-1 and I'll explain why: At the end of the level, it takes 32 frames to count every enemy/object on the screen. The more objects, the bigger the time loss. Through completely different routing from the RTA/TASv1, 9 frames were saved as follows. v1 completes the level using 0 discs, 4 crossovers, and 5 objects remaining on screen. v2 completes the level using 1 disc, 3 crossovers, and 1 object on screen. The difference: The extra crossover involves 2 extra jumps (35frames x2 = 70f), the disc takes 189f, and 4 objects (32f x 4 = 128f). So 2 less jumps, 4 less objects, and 1 disc => -70f -128f + 189f = -9f: 9 frames saved. Taking the disc at the end of the level can save frames, so this will be calculated into future screens. FYI 1-1: Each disc, (even though they are at 2 different heights - 5th row, and 7th row), they both take 189f, so neither one is faster. Surprised me. Next is 1-2, and the 'disc to finish' method might be faster.
current TAS: Q*Bert 3 any% v2TAS<br> next TAS: Q*Bert 3 X*Bert levels
Posted: 6/11/2016 2:26 AM
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BigBoct
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Something to be aware of. When judging a movie, the judges look specifically at the improvement in the gameplay. Omitting lag frames by turning off the music is not "improving the gameplay" and thus would be discounted when judging the v2 run, no matter how much time it saves. EDIT: A comparable situation is text speed in (J) rom vs. (U) rom. Faster text in (J) due to Japanese being a more compact language would also not be a gameplay improvement. I don't remember your v1 run, so I don't know how much the music adds to the entertainment value. At the end of the day, it's your call.
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