Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Bisqwit wrote:
The Qu'ran is all about glorifying this one man, this one conquering and enslaving and murdering man.
Are you sure you didn't mean to say that the Bible is all about glorifying one god, this one conquering and enslaving and murdering and jealous god?
I would advice not using all-encompassing expressions like "all about". It has a tendency to appear in contexts where the person is not really interested in knowing what something is really about.
Have you even read the Qur'an?
Edit: Notice the correct use of apostrophe.
The Qu'ran is all about glorifying this one man, this one conquering and enslaving and murdering man.
Are you sure you didn't mean to say that the Bible is all about glorifying one god, this one conquering and enslaving and murdering and jealous god?
I would advice not using all-encompassing expressions like "all about". It has a tendency to appear in contexts where the person is not really interested in knowing what something is really about.
Have you even read the Qur'an?
Wow, you replied to such an old post that I can't even figure out which page it was from.
In any case, I have read the Qur'an, yes. And there's a marked difference between Bible and Qur'an. Well, several marked differences really. But go on, believe the doctrine of "all religions are the same" if that makes you complacant.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Bisqwit wrote:
But go on, believe the doctrine of "all religions are the same" if that makes you complacant.
I don't think anyone believes that all religions are the same. That would be obviously false. Do you know somebody who actually believes so? I don't.
Maybe you mean "complacent"? I agree, it would be complacent or at least ignorant to say that all religions are the same. I'd also say it is ignorant to say that Qur'an is "all about" glorifying this one man.
If you are wondering, it is from this page: http://bisqwit.iki.fi/jesus/
Ah, thanks. At least I can fix the typo. :-)
Aqfaq wrote:
I don't think anyone believes that all religions are the same. That would be obviously false. Do you know somebody who actually believes so? I don't.
Yes, I have heard it quite many times, a few times even verbatim.
Often the very attitude surfaces in arguments like when they speak of Islamic terrorism, the retort is "it's not like Christians are any better; they would do the same thing were they in a similar position", and then referring to the Crusades. Thoughts like "all religions seek to control the man" appear often when Atheists are arguing against religions. "Same shit in a different package".
And there are plenty of people who even believe that Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same god. For instance, there are motions within the Finnish Evangelic-Lutheran Church to let the Muslims hold services in Christian churches.
Aqfaq wrote:
Maybe you mean "complacent"? I agree, it would be complacent or at least ignorant to say that all religions are the same. I'd also say it is ignorant to say that Qur'an is "all about" glorifying this one man.
Yes, I didn't remember the spelling of that word. Sorry about that.
And yes, I admit that it's an oversimplification to say "all about" in that context, much like it would be an oversimplification to say the Bible is all about glorifying the jealous God the creator of the universe, or that the Bible is all about showing through numerous examples how a man by themselves does everything wicked, or that the Bible is all about covenants, or that the Bible is all about rest, or that the Bible is all about love. All of the above is true, but they're different angles of observation, and none of them are the whole story. For Qur'an I chose one particular angle of observation for the purpose of contrast to the Bible, and I believe this angle is true, even though it's not the whole story. You didn't quote the whole paragraph, so this is not clear.
The contrast was that while in Islam, Muhammad is placed on a godlike pedestal, a model, a flawless prophet of Allah of unquestionable merit, whom every good Muslim defends against any and all criticism, despite his life story being recorded in gruesome detail in the Hadiths, and who is explicitly and mandatorily mentioned in the very declaration of Islamic faith -- in the Bible no prophet gets any glory; the role and task of prophets and teachers and apostles in the Bible is to be so little that the greatness of God can show through them; and anyone in the Bible who is closest to God will also be judged the harshest way.
Joined: 4/8/2005
Posts: 1573
Location: Gone for a year, just for varietyyyyyyyyy!!
Bisqwit wrote:
The contrast was that while in Islam, Muhammad is placed on a godlike pedestal, a model, a flawless prophet of Allah of unquestionable merit, whom every good Muslim defends against any and all criticism, despite his life story being recorded in gruesome detail in the Hadiths, and who is explicitly and mandatorily mentioned in the very declaration of Islamic faith -- in the Bible no prophet gets any glory; the role and task of prophets and teachers and apostles in the Bible is to be so little that the greatness of God can show through them; and anyone in the Bible who is closest to God will also be judged the harshest way.
That seems hardly a contrast, when it can equally well be said that in Christianity Jesus is placed on a godlike pedestal, a model, a flawless son of God of unquestionable merit, whom every good Christian defends against any and all criticism, despite his life story involving the endorsement of slavery and male chauvinism*, and who is explicitly and mandatorily mentioned in the very declaration of Christian faith. In the Bible it is implied that the prophets have the chance to get eternal life, which is undoubtedly the greatest glory anyone can receive.
I don't think you chose the best method, if you really want to contrast Islam and Christianity.
Also, how is that not exactly "the same shit in a different package"? I'm not saying it is, but we don't need to be Einsteins to calculate how somebody might come to a conclusion like that.
Have you considered that when people say "same shit" they might actually refer to the "shitty method" that a religious person uses for acquiring his/her particular beliefs, which is often something like personal experience, a personal favorite book and personal faith? Maybe the Atheists refer to this "shitty method of deciding what is true" when they talk about "same shit"?
I suppose we all understand that there are many versions of Islam just like there are many versions of Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism. There surely exist Muslims who care less about Muhammad as a glorified figure and more about some other teachings of the Ur-Quan [sic]. Your text about Muhammad might be accidentally hinting to the doctrine that "all Muslims are the same", which is the same fallacy that you claim Atheists fall into when they bundle all religions together. Maybe humbly bundling all Muslims together as the opposing team makes you comfortable or should I say complacent? Imagine a Bisqmuhammad writing on his page of personal beliefs that "Christianity is all about glorifying this one man called Jesus." That is exactly how your text might come out to a casual reader.
By the way, I think your little page about divine beliefs is cool. Thank you for writing it. It is an interesting read and feels like a window to a different universe. Do you know others who have written similar pages about their personal beliefs? Would be interesting to read some more.
Bisqwit wrote:
For instance, there are motions within the Finnish Evangelic-Lutheran Church to let the Muslims hold services in Christian churches.
That's nice. These Christians seem to have understood the part about loving your enemy. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" also fits the context as I can imagine any Christian minority being delighted to have their meetings in a Mosque. Always nice to hear when humans are genuinely tolerant and friendly. And brave.
* 12 disciples. All men. Because women are not good enough for Jesus?
Bisqwit, it's clear that you take the Bible seriously, and you have a very partial view towards it.
I'd like to illustrate what everyone else is driving at, can you take this quiz and tell me what score you get?
http://bibleorqurangame.blogspot.com/
The point I'm making isn't that "The Bible is OMG horrible." It's that both the Bible and the Quran contain passages of very questionable morality, and other extremely interesting passages that show good character. And it's very possible to pick and choose just the good things or just the bad things. Which is one big reason why Abrahamic religions took off. They can be all things to all people.
Build a man a fire, warm him for a day,
Set a man on fire, warm him for the rest of his life.
Joined: 8/14/2009
Posts: 4090
Location: The Netherlands
As this topic has been veering off from questions to Bisqwit into questions about Christianity in general (not specifically directed at Bisqwit), I've moved posts over to the religious debate thread here: Post #417139
EDIT: I moved some more posts over. If you want to argue about the Bible, not in a question to Bisqwit, do so in the religious debate thread.
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