I can't wait for the finished TAS, loving those videos :D
Here are a few more images:
1st is the Harvest Moon cow
2nd is Mario from Super Mario Bros 3 (just like in the favicon and image on the corner)
3rd is my version of FrankerZ (previously done by Antiweasel)
Last one is the logo of GDQ. I intentionally left space below to be able to add something else, like the year perhaps.
If you guys could try to reduce/eliminate those small segments before submitting the pictures, that would be really handy. I can/will do it if necessary later on, but I prefer to let you guys touch up your images to look best. I've updated the tools to allow you to generate the blue images above. The tools are now hosted on github: http://pjgat09.github.io/BrainAgeTools/. I will also update the link in the previous post.
Does this translate to just making the lines a bit thicker than the minimum of 4 pixels when doing slanted/curved lines? Because that's not a hard fix if so.
Question: How does Brain Age interpret those images? In other words, what numbers do they correspond to? Can this be chosen somehow (other than, you know, using that misleading trick of drawing off-screen)?
Question: How does Brain Age interpret those images? In other words, what numbers do they correspond to? Can this be chosen somehow (other than, you know, using that misleading trick of drawing off-screen)?
On the first page xy2_ linked to a large series of posts going into that here
Question: How does Brain Age interpret those images? In other words, what numbers do they correspond to? Can this be chosen somehow (other than, you know, using that misleading trick of drawing off-screen)?
On the first page xy2_ linked to a large series of posts going into that here
Pretty hard to figure out what they're interpreted as even if you know the system...
Does this translate to just making the lines a bit thicker than the minimum of 4 pixels when doing slanted/curved lines? Because that's not a hard fix if so.
Yes, the end result is that lines become slightly thicker, but the more important part is the points where the pen needs to be touched.
Here's a zoomed in example from Zoidberg's neck:
The blue pixels are where you need to touch the pen. You can see that they are separated, meaning that you would need to lift the pen to go to the next point.
I added some extra points to fix the problem:
This results in a slightly thicker line (expanded to the left), but doesn't require the pen to be lifted numerous times. Another way to fix the problem would be like this:
This time the new points are on the other side, making the line slightly thicker to the right. Picking which way to add the points depends on the picture, and you may need to mix.
I hope that explains it a little better!
Question: How does Brain Age interpret those images? In other words, what numbers do they correspond to? Can this be chosen somehow (other than, you know, using that misleading trick of drawing off-screen)?
On the first page xy2_ linked to a large series of posts going into that here
That page describes how we think the game's OCR works, but that is entirely based on observations.
After the discussion about what we should allow for this TAS, the consensus seemed to be that as along as the images we draw are actually being scanned by the OCR, we can add extra input to trick the game. The published TAS does this by adding enough extra taps to the image (hidden in things he has already drawn or off screen) to trick the game into accepting the answer. After we finish getting the images into brain age we will add some extra input to the end of each, possibly with a bot. If you are wondering, the example videos I have been posting do not have this extra input, so the game doesn't accept the answer yet.
Question: How does Brain Age interpret those images? In other words, what numbers do they correspond to? Can this be chosen somehow (other than, you know, using that misleading trick of drawing off-screen)?
On the first page xy2_ linked to a large series of posts going into that here
That page describes how we think the game's OCR works, but that is entirely based on observations.
After the discussion about what we should allow for this TAS, the consensus seemed to be that as along as the images we draw are actually being scanned by the OCR, we can add extra input to trick the game. The published TAS does this by adding enough extra taps to the image (hidden in things he has already drawn or off screen) to trick the game into accepting the answer. After we finish getting the images into brain age we will add some extra input to the end of each, possibly with a bot. If you are wondering, the example videos I have been posting do not have this extra input, so the game doesn't accept the answer yet.
On top of that, there are a lot of things that are wrong or not noted in this page (most notably, edges), since this was at the very start of my observations. I'm planning to rewrite it in the next few days with actual and accurate information in the game's grim and empty resources page.
For input manipulation, we've managed to narrow it down to maximum 10 inputs after each drawing, because of the way the game works. Manipulation is done either after the drawing, manipulating the answer with precise edge breaking and godspot abuse, or during the answer (which will probably be the case for most answers that can use the dynamic), manipulating the numbers in realtime as we're drawing the picture! For example, manipulating a different number each time a row in the Matrix drawing lands, leading to having 9 different numbers manipulated throughout the entire drawing, to ultimately get the right number.
This manipulation is hard and very dependant on where your edges are placed, so for hard manipulation (6+ numbers per drawing), doing it manually is best.
I assume every picture is interpreted as some answer (rather than being just rejected). Wouldn't it thus be enough to just choose from the available pictures one that gives the correct answer?
Of course this wouldn't allow showing the pictures in the desired order, but...
I assume every picture is interpreted as some answer (rather than being just rejected). Wouldn't it thus be enough to just choose from the available pictures one that gives the correct answer?
Of course this wouldn't allow showing the pictures in the desired order, but...
Yes, every picture is made in such a way that it will be always interpreted as one answer; normally, if we lift the pen (which would be forced in some answers), the answer would be recognized as multiple segments; but using a glitch, edge breaking, which allows us to trick the game into thinking we lift the pen when it is still on the drawing field, and as such, recognized as only one segment, we can 'disjoint' the segments we draw to make it appear as only one segement to the game, even though it is input wherever we want. Following this, we are able to draw an invisible second segment, using edge breaking and godspots which will serve as basis for manipulation, which also uses the input from the previouss segment.. and continuing that second segment or drawing a third one and et cetera for more manipluation of the displayed answer. In short, the level of control we have over the game right now is being able to manipulate any desired drawing to any desired answer. We can go even further: manipulate more different answers to appear before the right one. See the post above for more information.
..and now, you finally know why Mario = 8.
Thanks to Masterjun I now understand how the game draws arbitrary lines. I added that functionality to my path drawing tool along with a few new hotkeys, and it now looks very usable!
Here's the first example with the upgraded tool:
Link to video
That drawing now takes ~5 seconds less compared to the old method, and I think it looks smoother.
To move this project forward I am soon going to finalize the first 20 questions of the script and start working on the TAS for those. If you have any comments/suggestions for the first 20 questions let me know soon. And if you are looking for images to work on, pick from the first 20 so we can get them out of the way.
I made one drawing of "Shut up and take my money". Maybe it can be added after the donation reader as the 20th one?
I love this! I'm actually probably going to move the donation reader one out of the first 20 since we probably won't know who will be hosting us for a while and I'd like to get those finished soon. But this one is definitely going in the queue.
I like all these meme posts! Those should elicit some laughs from the AGDQ crowd (and the viewing audience).
However, do be mindful of the copyright on some memes (such as the trollface) and images from Futurama, just in case. The marathon is nonprofit but it might still be considered profiting from their images.
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CoolKirby wrote:
However, do be mindful of the copyright on some memes (such as the trollface) and images from Futurama, just in case. The marathon is nonprofit but it might still be considered profiting from their images.
I will take on following up with GDQ staff on this (they are already aware of the concern). From my perspective, this is fair use via being a parody and because the artwork is not being sold, nor is any work reproduced in full in any capacity. We should probably stay away from trollface just on general principles and I don't want to deliberately attempt to attract unwanted attention in this area but I don't personally feel we should be limiting creativity due to fear of reprisal. As the primary organizer along with micro500 it will be my neck in the noose if this goes sideways so I have a substantial vested interest in ensuring we're acting in good faith.
This is gonna be a hilarious run! This is what I call unexpected: people get used to mind blowing tech demos and get a sand box game playaround. Summed with a good script we already have, it might get standing ovations too!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I like all these meme posts! Those should elicit some laughs from the AGDQ crowd (and the viewing audience).
However, do be mindful of the copyright on some memes (such as the trollface) and images from Futurama, just in case. The marathon is nonprofit but it might still be considered profiting from their images.
dwangoAC wrote:
CoolKirby wrote:
However, do be mindful of the copyright on some memes (such as the trollface) and images from Futurama, just in case. The marathon is nonprofit but it might still be considered profiting from their images.
I will take on following up with GDQ staff on this (they are already aware of the concern). From my perspective, this is fair use via being a parody and because the artwork is not being sold, nor is any work reproduced in full in any capacity. We should probably stay away from trollface just on general principles and I don't want to deliberately attempt to attract unwanted attention in this area but I don't personally feel we should be limiting creativity due to fear of reprisal. As the primary organizer along with micro500 it will be my neck in the noose if this goes sideways so I have a substantial vested interest in ensuring we're acting in good faith.
I am no expert on this, but this is my understanding of the situation:
Copyright reserves the right of the holder to copy, or create any derivative works based on the copyrighted material. That includes musical variations, artworks based on it, and any material that is using the copyright material as a basis. Memes, or even an incomplete reproduction still infringes upon this unless it's fair use. Charity, as far as I can tell with some quick research, is still a rather hotly contested issue since funds are still being raised.
Basically, in a situation like this, it's a gray area that has no clear bounds, and after speaking asking the PR staff, we'd like to err on the side of caution because the grey area means that even if it was ruled in our favor, getting sued would be expensive and cause us a lot of problems.
As such, it was recommended to me that we should stick to indie devs as opposed to the major franchises and, sadly, stray away from the futarama stuff. (owned by fox)
edit: Basically, copyright law is very intricate and complex, and only recently a major ruling went out on fair use. But since we're riding a grey area, if we broght this issue up to a lawyer we'd probably get a response liken to "Hmm, that's an interesting case" which is code for it will be expensive.
After a discussion with Raelcun, I've decided to take a much more conservative approach to this project and do our best to avoid any possible copyright issues. I want to do my best to prevent GDQ from getting into any legal trouble, so here is my plan going forward:
We need to avoid any copyrighted material for the art we show on stream at AGDQ*. This includes the Futurama images, Nintendo related stuff, and anything of the sort. References to indie games should be ok however (Minecraft, Super Meat Boy, Shovel Knight, etc.).
We should put together a list of over 200 possible ideas that we think are legally safe for a GDQ. We should include specifics about what we plan to draw (or the image if it is finished already) and what the reference is for someone who doesn't understand it. We will then have the GDQ PR team look over the list and pick out the ones they think are the safest, and they can give us approval for those. From there we can get to work making the art for those ideas.
When we finish the art I will put together a finalized video of what we plan to show on stream and get that to the PR guys for another approval.
So what I need from you guys is a lot of image ideas. Just start throwing out ideas, and remember that we need 200+. I will assemble a list and we will go from there.
*My goal was to make this TAS in such a way that with some small modifications it could also be published here. The modifications would include things like taking out anything GDQ related, and just generally making the run targeted at a wider audience. I really love all the images that have been made so far and I would hate to see them not be used, but with the copyright concerns we won't be showing them on stream. I'd really like to see a run with these images, and we might still be able to make a publishable run that includes them. Whether or not copyrighted material is safe for a published run is off topic for this thread, so I'll start a discussion about that when the time comes. For now I think it would be best to only post GDQ safe images in this thread. Any other images you make can be posted in the Brain Age thread where we can discuss making a TAS with them, and I'll post WIPs as I work on them.
I tried to make the creeper look more textured, but with 4x4 dots I couldn't really make anything that looked good and not just dirty up the image.
Since meat boy was listed specifically.
As for ideas, are we still going for the romance thing in the 100 questions? Or are we just going to be doing stuff that's Twitch and gaming relaetd?
So it's completely ok to show their games, but not their artwork (even though the games themselves show a thousand times more of the game artwork than some still images that are shown for a couple of seconds)?
The rationale behind this baffles the mind. I don't even.
So it's completely ok to show their games, but not their artwork (even though the games themselves show a thousand times more of the game artwork than some still images that are shown for a couple of seconds)?
The rationale behind this baffles the mind. I don't even.
I totally agree, it is silly. But even if it really is fair use Nintendo could still make a copyright claim against GDQ and threaten a lawsuit, which would likely end up being a giant headache even if we are in the right. While this does seem like fair use, I'd much rather avoid the whole issue and make a copyright safe run.
In other news, I've picked an RNG seed I plan to use for the first 20 questions. Here is the WIP which starts with that seed. The WIP should sync in DeSMuME 0.9.9. I've put the question set into the script so we can start doing the art for the questions that we needed to know the answers to (1-6).
1st is the Harvest Moon cow
2nd is Mario from Super Mario Bros 3 (just like in the favicon and image on the corner)
3rd is my version of FrankerZ (previously done by Antiweasel)
Last one is the logo of GDQ. I intentionally left space below to be able to add something else, like the year perhaps.
The blue pixels are where you need to touch the pen. You can see that they are separated, meaning that you would need to lift the pen to go to the next point.
I added some extra points to fix the problem:
This results in a slightly thicker line (expanded to the left), but doesn't require the pen to be lifted numerous times. Another way to fix the problem would be like this:
This time the new points are on the other side, making the line slightly thicker to the right. Picking which way to add the points depends on the picture, and you may need to mix.
I hope that explains it a little better!
Since meat boy was listed specifically.
As for ideas, are we still going for the romance thing in the 100 questions? Or are we just going to be doing stuff that's Twitch and gaming relaetd?
