Spikestuff
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He sighs dropped it again.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
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Joined: 11/1/2014
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Because I see some of you are interestd in this game, I want to post a reply. I started working on it about a week ago and so far I've done 5 levels. I recorded everything I made so far. Link to video First up, yes I am using the japanese version. The reason why I'm using the Japanese Version is because I really like playing in japanese and I didn't actually know that the NTSC Version has some minor differences, since I only played the PAL Version, and PAL and NTSC-J are similar. I've played through the first 4 stages today again and cutted about 350 frames off, and so far I'm pretty happy with what I've done so far. One thing I will re-do is 1-5, because it's possible to get a 110 instead of a 109 in the first room. I wanted to wait until I'm done with the entire first world until I post something about my project, but since you are interested in it, I wanted to show you guys off my progress.
Current TAS I'm working on: KDL2 any% TAS: 2/38 (5,2%) Need to re-do w1-3 TAS I paused: Mario vs. Donkey Kong US: 1,5/49 (3%) mugg, you are my waifu
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Good effort but -It seems that the intro sequences might be longer in Japanese. -When you enter 2nd half of each level, time gets moved on top of the door you entered. I remember this happening in EU too. This does not happen in US. -Some parts aren't optimized. Please refer to this WIP by EightBitGuy (VBA19,21,22,23(?); US ROM). "Frame whoring", i.e. squeezing out every frame possible, is going to be mandatory. Regardless of the version EightBitGuy used, please do use VBA v24.
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I find it very good for a start, don't give up. ^^
Joined: 11/1/2014
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yeah, I see the differences between Jap and NTSC. I am going to re-do it from the beginning again, just on the NTSC Version, since through the WIP TAS I saw some interesting (and faster) strats like the ladder jumping. My current problem is to manipulate the fire enemys in the second part of 1-2, but I hope I will find a way.
Current TAS I'm working on: KDL2 any% TAS: 2/38 (5,2%) Need to re-do w1-3 TAS I paused: Mario vs. Donkey Kong US: 1,5/49 (3%) mugg, you are my waifu
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So I decided to give this game another shot. Here's a WIP completing world 1. Being secretive bit me last time so I'm planning to post WIPs once per world as I work through the game. I've switched to BizHawk for a variety of reasons (mainly its integrated tools). For whatever reason BizHawk has more out-of-level lag and less in-level lag than VBA so the overall movie times aren't really comparable. If you discount lag differences, in-level I'm about 60 frames ahead of EightBitGuy's WIP. The time-savers I found were: - 1-5b: Saved a frame with slightly better jumping on the trash can. - 1-6a: Optimized the upper area slightly better, which let me get through the bricks without waiting, saving 52 frames. - 1-MM: Did a handstand-to-somersault sequence while waiting for the minis, which let me reach the red switch faster, saving 5-7 frames (this level is so laggy it's hard to tell exactly).
ALAKTORN
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Are the Cyberscore records comparable to this TAS?
ALAKTORN wrote:
just noticed this thread… I’m not sure if they’re comparable at all, but Prenz is crazy on this game and his scores are here http://www.cyberscore.me.uk/game/22 I know this game has quite the version differences… earliest US release being the best as far as abusable glitches go, I believe
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The TAS aims for speed, not score, so they're not really comparable. Those would be a good reference for a 100% TAS, though.
ALAKTORN
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Score records are still speedruns, though. The timer gives points. If you calculate all possible points in a level and subtract them from the score record, you could figure out the time with which the level is ended. For your TAS that time should never be faster than yours, obviously. I know nothing about the game but I know Prenz as a competitor and I am 100% certain that your TAS will be suboptimal shit if you don’t get in contact with him (he probably won’t help though) or somehow try to figure out some of his records to understand how to maximize the game. He may not tell you his tricks but he might still comment on whether what you have is optimal or not, so you could try asking him that if you can contact him. Edit: By the way another competitor in that game (Crono) is also a TASer and has made a few TASes for this game, so you might wanna contact him as well. He’s nowhere near Prenz’s level though, I believe. Edit: Here are a bunch of Crono’s MvsDK vids, maybe you can find something useful in them: https://www.youtube.com/user/CronoNes/search?query=mario+vs Edit: I think most of those videos are massively outdated, though…
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ALAKTORN wrote:
Score records are still speedruns, though. The timer gives points. If you calculate all possible points in a level and subtract them from the score record, you could figure out the time with which the level is ended. For your TAS that time should never be faster than yours, obviously.
Yeah, but for a max score run you have to go out of the way to collect presents and kill enemies. In an any% run you're just beelining for the key, door, and mini mario. Even if you figured out the level time it's not comparable to this TAS since the routes are different. But, your suggestion would work for DK levels, where the any% and 100% goals are the same (kill DK as fast as possible), or levels where there isn't anything but the key. Again, those scores are a really useful reference for a 100% TAS. But it's hard to use them with an any% TAS.
ALAKTORN
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All I’m saying is that you have no idea how hard this game has been destroyed to death by Prenz. If you want to make a TAS of this game, not contacting the best player of it who spent years upon years optimizing every single possible thing about the game and finding exploits all over, you’d be really stupid. That’s true of any game, if you’re planning on doing a TAS of anything you should reach out to its competitive community for advice; but it’s especially true for this game for the simple reason that Prenz is the name of one of those competitive players. 100% strategies may have nothing to do with any% but that’s no excuse to not even get in contact with the game’s community. If you were to make a 100% TAS and didn’t look at Cyberscore’s records or hit Prenz up, I’d wager that’d be grounds for being banned for the sheer stupidity.
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I never said I wouldn't contact Prenz or anyone in the community. All I said was that the score records would be hard to apply to an any% TAS. I didn't say they were useless or anything, in fact I pointed out a couple of ways they could still be handy. I'd also appreciate if you would quit insulting me. I haven't done anything to offend you, all I've done is post a WIP TAS for a game I really like. If you see an issue with the WIP I'd love to hear it - that's why I posted it here in the first place.
Spikestuff
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Chef Stef wrote:
I'd also appreciate if you would quit insulting me. I haven't done anything to offend you.
You missed quite a bit of how ALAKTORN has now started to act, he's pretty much a loose, broken cannon. Just ignore everything he says, keep your head up and smash out. Also. Welcome back to the land of the living.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
ALAKTORN
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Chef Stef wrote:
I'd also appreciate if you would quit insulting me.
Never have. All my insults were ifs that shouldn’t apply to you. You didn’t make it clear at all that you were gonna contact the MvsDK community, though; so you can’t pretend I should’ve known.
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World 2 done. Compared to EightBitGuy's WIP (again, discounting lag) I've saved about 30 frames in this world. Main improvements: - 2-1a, ceiling-boosting in two places saved a total of 4 frames. - 2-3b, it turns out it's possible to somersault directly across the platforms, which is 11 frames faster than backflipping. - 2-5a, 6 frames saved from manipulating Mario's position better when dropping off the vine. - 2-5b, a new strategy here allows vine-boosting an extra time, saving 4 frames.
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World 3 done. 775 non-lag frames saved over EightBitGuy, the vast majority of which came from a new boss strategy. Non-trivial improvements: -- 3-2b, somersaulting to the moving platform allows backflipping without having to turn around, saving 11 frames. -- 3-4a, 2 frames saved from duck-turning with the key instead of just turning around normally. -- 3-DK, here I discovered a trick to hit DK without consuming the barrel. This lets me wipe out DK with just the first barrel, which is great because normally this is a very slow battle. 758 frames saved with this strategy. The new trick also works for 1-DK, so I redid the battle to include it (195 frames saved). I suspect it's usable for 5-DK too but I haven't checked yet.
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World 4 done. About 980 frames saved over EightBitGuy in this world. Non-trivial improvements: -- 4-2a, duck-turning with the key saves 2 frames. This let me beat an apparent frame rule with the conveyors, saving 8 more frames during the backflip. -- 4-2b, I found a faster way to ascend the donut platforms, saving 37 frames. -- 4-6a, a new trick allows pressing the yellow switch without having to go all the way around, saving 920 frames. -- 4-6b, somersaulting at the end saves 11 frames. The new trick involves starting a handstand and alternating left and right every frame at the apex of the jump. For whatever reason this levitates Mario in midair and makes him slowly rise at 9 speed. I discovered this while messing around in 3-4a trying to glitch Mario through the red blocks above the pounder. (Turns out it's possible, but it takes way too much time to execute.) 9 speed is extremely slow - about two pixels per second. For comparison, running is 272 speed and jumping starts out at 627 speed. On top of that, the handstand jump is quite short (about one block height, compared to the backflip's three-ish blocks) so it takes forever to gain any meaningful height with the trick. If there's a platform that backflipping / somersaulting can't reach, it'll almost certainly be faster to do the level normally than to spend 30-40 seconds getting up there with the trick. So while you can use it to ascend as high as you like, I don't think it ever saves time to do so. The more-useful aspect of this trick is that you get to hover in midair indefinitely. In 4-6a I use the trick to press against the underside of a donut block, which you can't do normally, in order to activate it from the wrong side. Unfortunately there aren't many situations like this in the game so I wouldn't be surprised if this is the only place the trick is useful.
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World 5 done. 16 frames saved over EightBitGuy in this world. I didn't find any major strategy changes so the improvement is just a handful of frames. Non-trivial improvements: -- 5-5b, I optimized the part where the monkey carries Mario over the spikes, saving 2 frames. -- 5-6b, I discovered that with the right subpixel positioning Mario bounces off the last spring much faster, saving 3 frames. I'll be looking for other places this can be used, but it seems pretty limited. Somersaulting at the end saved another 3 frames over backflipping. -- 5-MM, optimizing the camera movement around the minis near the end saved 4 frames. Interesting non-improvements: -- 5-4a, vine-boosting saves 5 frames but the time savings get offset by the platform cycle at the end. -- 5-3b, I found a complicated strategy that makes the upper bombs blow up sooner, ultimately saving 6 frames. Unfortunately with this strategy you're also forced to collect all 3 presents, which loses a ton of time from the minigame after the level, so it's only useful for a 100% run. EightBitGuy's WIP ends after world 5 so from here I'll be comparing against his previous movie and my cancelled submission.
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This is progressing quite well. I'm impressed by how much time you've saved already. Good job so far, Chef Stef!
Spikestuff
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It's been fairly entertaining and awesome to watch, can't wait till this is submitted.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
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Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
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Done with world 6! About 1450 frames saved over my cancelled run, 360 frames saved over EightBitGuy's other run, and 310 frames saved over the hypothetical best-of-each combination of the two. As expected there were a bunch of mini-optimizations I found that added up - just about every level had time saved. For brevity's sake I'll only list improvements where the strategy actually changed. -- 6-2b, I optimized the approach to the trash can, which was just enough to beat the upper brick cycle, ultimately saving 29 frames. -- 6-5b, optimizing the last ladder ascent saved enough time to activate the pusher much earlier, saving 18 frames. -- 6-MM, about 200 frames saved from a new complicated strategy to get the first mini into the red lasers much sooner, saving a laser cycle. I also manipulated the mini at the end to bounce left off the spring, saving time when approaching the toy box. The factors involved to get the minis where I want them is quite involved so I'll save that discussion for the submission text. Once I finish off the final battle I'm planning to do a quick pass through the run again and hex in any useful tricks discovered in later levels (such as springboard-clipping from 5-6b). Once that's done the run should be ready for the workbench.
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Plus worlds go! World 1 finished. I'm starting from SRAM but it'd be pretty easy to attach this to the end of the other movie if we want to just have a combined TAS. Manipulating the mini properly is a huge challenge sometimes but otherwise these levels are more straightforward than the normal ones. I'm not convinced I've found the fastest strategies yet, but this is a good start. Progress is pretty smooth now that I have a lot of experience with Mario's mechanics, although there are new tricks I'm finding thanks to the different format of levels in the plus worlds. It turns out Mario's placement in front of the key door is very important - the farther away he is, the longer the ending animation takes. And of course there are a lot of small tricks for escorting the mini around. The highlight for me is 1-1+, where I got the mini out of the starting area without having to go through the shyguys. It still looks kinda slow but I couldn't get the mini to jump up any faster. 1-6+ was a bit frustrating because the brick cycle was off both times but that aside the level turned out pretty well. 1-DK+ was fun figuring out how to do the trash-can-reuse trick as early as possible.
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I think it would be good to have one complete run. Good luck!
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It's been awhile but I'm still here! World 2 was a breeze so I decided to do world 3 while I was at it... and got stuck on a couple of levels. Then I took a long break for the holidays. Oh well. At any rate, here's the WIP through the end of world 3. In world 2 I realized that vine-boosting can be done for each vine in a group by repeatedly grabbing and letting go. Vine boosts are about a 5-frame savings per use so it's nice to be able to exploit these even further, and it looks great as Mario zooms across the vines. The most obvious usage is during the boss battle. I'm thinking this trick can be done in some levels of the other run to save a few frames. World 3 was annoying because most levels were about obstacle navigation and there wasn't much room to shorten things. In multiple places I was forced to make the mini wait or else it would hit a fireball. Thanks to the usual tricks the boss is nice and quick, at least.
ALAKTORN
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No encodes?