Post by FatRatKnight

Posted: 5/9/2017 7:44 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Joined: 9/27/2008
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Found another improvement, and fixed the boss. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/38899122092553167 The boss should always be set up to sync. If it doesn't, adjust the gate delay until it does. The boss fight assumes the best dialog frame rule, and even if we redo the boss with a different frame rule sort of thing, we're not saving a frame anyway. The sync has to do with the interaction of the animation frame rule (4-frame, gate opening) and dialog frame rule (8-frame). The boss attack timing is dependent on how many frames it existed, and the boss does exist while the dialog does its thing. So, we (Team 4) didn't hit perfection here. Good to know that much, anyway. On a side note, I removed the stage select delay on the way to Stage 7. Its purpose was purely syncing the item drops, and is strictly a disadvantage to leave in the final product.

Posted: 5/13/2017 7:01 AM

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FatRatKnight

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Two steps forward, but one step back. We've got some more things to try and optimize out, such as the lag I ended up adding on the way to syncing in Team 4's run, and general ammo problems that came up as well. There are many enemies we can destroy on the way, but these options like to cause lag. At least Team 4's run mostly synced. Now's the time to iron out a few details and ensure we have every frame we can get, while still mauling the boss properly.

Posted: 5/15/2017 11:38 PM

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FatRatKnight

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That one step back is now taken forward. Stage 7 properly complete now. I guess stitching in Stage 1 is next. I'm not aware of any tricks to do different from Team 4, so now's the time to chirp in with said tricks I'm not aware of. EDIT: Synced in Team 4's Stage 1. Did item stuff and despawn a flame stuff. Although we're ahead 8 frames by boss gate, we lose 4 frames somehow to the dialog frame rule, implying that I started Stage 1 on a different 4-frame rule that doesn't play nice with the 8-frame rule. In short, something's odd.

Posted: 5/19/2017 7:59 PM

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Truncated

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Just so you don't feel all alone in here, I checked through the latest movie. There are a lot of turn arounds before landing on ledges which I don't understand what they are for. I know turning around helps when you can go from a >14f jump to a 14f jump, or when clearing a gap which would be to wide otherwise. But in other cases I thought just holding jump for 1 more frame was faster? At 26700 when you enter the horizontal section, it is possible to get ahead of the screen before it unlocks. We didn't have time to investigate if doing that was faster than just unlocking it at once as you do now. Doing it means you need to double back at the end before touching the boss door or a slower boss start, but the potential gain is different flame timing meaning you can potientially avoid damage.

Posted: 5/19/2017 8:21 PM

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FatRatKnight

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In many cases, those turnarounds gain us a pixel, as we make a shorter jump.

Frame  - LoJump HiJump
f23657 - 221:+2 221:+2 -- Air
f23658 - 219:-2 223:+2 -- LoJump landed, must turn around to land
f23659 - 219: 0 225:+2
f23660 - 219: 0 227:+2
f23661 - 222:+3 227: 0 -- HiJump landed, no need to turn around
f23662 - 225:+3 227: 0
f23663 - 228:+3 227: 0
f23664 - 231:+3 230:+3 -- Point where it's basically decided who's faster
f23665 - 234:+3 233:+3
f23666 - 237:+3 236:+3

The point of the turnaround is so we make a lower jump. This lower jump will not land on the ledge unless we turn around and have the important pixel (our back foot) on the floor we need to get to. It is enough early that we can dash and make up for the lost pixels and a bit more. If we want to avoid the turnaround, we must hold A for one frame longer, as otherwise our important back foot wouldn't reach the floor, and because we're at the top of our jump, the +4 pixels takes a few frames to drop back down from. Long enough to lose to the turnaround shorter jump by one pixel. As for that horizontal section, loading the next segment to preserve our Screen X is important. Every frame we dash without unlocking the camera is another 3 pixels, and that's 3 frames at the door we can't get rid of, due to the fact the camera will always follow us if Screen X is between 80 and 104. We'll also need to jump on otherwise dashable ground to load the next segment, if I understand the situation right, so the losses stack up very quickly just so we avoid some flame damage. It is still worth checking to make absolutely sure, as each instance of damage takes 16 frames of hit-stun, during which we're moving 1 pixel/frame.

Posted: 5/22/2017 9:00 PM

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lapogne36

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I checked the differences between the current wip and our segments 1 and 4. Segment 1 is because we jumped before the end of segment 0, and segment 4 even if the camera reached the next segment 1 frame sooner, our ZX is still 3 frames slower than yours (we started the segment a little bit more on the left). So there is currently nothing to change in the wip, and we can go to the next level (either level 3 or level 4, depending if we want Earth for levels 5 and 6 or Shuriken+Missile for level 3)

Posted: 5/22/2017 9:17 PM

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pirate_sephiroth

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Truncated wrote:

Just so you don't feel all alone in here, I checked through the latest movie. There are a lot of turn arounds before landing on ledges which I don't understand what they are for. I know turning around helps when you can go from a >14f jump to a 14f jump, or when clearing a gap which would be to wide otherwise. But in other cases I thought just holding jump for 1 more frame was faster?.

Due to the poor jump height control it is often best to do a smaller jump + turn around to land and dash earlier.

"Genuine self-esteem, however, consists not of causeless feelings, but of certain knowledge about yourself. It rests on the conviction that you — by your choices, effort and actions — have made yourself into the kind of person able to deal with reality. It is the conviction — based on the evidence of your own volitional functioning — that you are fundamentally able to succeed in life and, therefore, are deserving of that success." - Onkar Ghate

Bisqwit wrote:

Drama, too long, didn't read, lol.

Posted: 5/23/2017 1:09 AM

Post subject: All segments explained as I know it. End of edit spam.

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FatRatKnight

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I did a direct copy of Stage 4. Curiously, the 32-frame rule lined up perfectly, so Team 4's run synced without issue. I'll be explaining each segment as I see them. Hopefully my suggestions will spark some new optimization. s4 - Segment 0 Opener Team 1 is reported fastest, except they took the sub. Sure, it ends the segment early, but then we're stuck in an auto-scroller. Obviously, we'll want to break the auto-scroller to save a few thousand frames, instead of ending this segment a few dozen frames early. Teams 6 and 4 are otherwise reported fastest, but it might be better to find a different measuring point somewhere in the next segment, where it's clear dashing along the ground at that moment is fastest in all "universes". s4 - Segment 1 "Auto-scroller" segment 1 A complex segment. Point in case: Team 4 used the charge glitch to double up on flame charges at times, and Team 3 didn't. Yet, despite the apparent advantage of double flame charge, Team 3 is still snapping close to Team 4's time. I'm impressed. A reminder on the charge glitch: We need some sort of control lock, and the situation needs to allow us to shoot (shot cooldown prevents chaining the charge glitch off a flame charge). Still, a second flame charge without 60 frames of charging in between might be worth being slow for 16 frames plus one frame of going the wrong way, as each flame charge is around 64 frames long. Then again, if we could dash for most of those 60 frames of charge, then charge glitch isn't helpful. It's mostly when we're stuck in the air, mostly. But this segment is a lot of air- er, water. In any case, Team 3 clearly did something right even with the advantage of this glitch that Team 4 used frequently. Comparing these two teams closely might help further optimize this segment. s4 - Segment 2 Miniboss Team 4 is fastest here. This is mostly because they took damage just before the miniboss, allowing them to charge a laser without the 16 frames of delay from damage. This delay is shuffled into the prior segment, where it takes up dash time instead, but since the slow damage boost is used for forward progress, instead of flatly wasted on the miniboss, this is a few frames saved. I also recall tweaking with the miniboss timing a bit under Team 4, concluding that the lag depends on the 4-frame animation rule. Any improvements probably should use Team 4 to compare against, I can't think of much else to really add. s4 - Segment 3 Short right, after miniboss Teams 7 and 6 are fastest here. Except that Teams 4 and 3 set up Ghost Fall, and the results can be seen in the following segment. So the teams we should compare are just the two leaders. I've already taken a look. Team 4 lands after save platform, but must scroll the camera dashing back and forth. Headbonked at ladder. Team 3 lands on save platform, and did not need to dedicate dashing for camera scroll. Did not headbonk at ladder. s4 - Segment 4 Down segment Our two leaders did their Ghost Fall here. Ignoring terrain might be nice and all, but it doesn't guarantee identical times, as Team 3 avoids damage by shooting stuff, which Team 4 loses time on ouch frames. I did experiment a bit here after seeing Team 3's run. They do reach the next segment sooner, but with a worse camera than Team 4. A bad camera doesn't guarantee lost frames, as we still need to go all the way to the right for the ladder at the up segment near the end. s4 - Segment 5 Short right Team 4 is reported fastest here, but this is an illusion caused by the camera. As for player position, the two leaders should be pretty close together. Probably a better measurement point is somewhere in the next segment, probably on that ground down there, and comparing player position rather than camera position. The next segment is really complicated. In fact, that complexity begins staring from this segment, with Team 3 choosing the platform to dash on and Team 4 instead flame charges past it to land on the slope below sooner. So this is more of an extension of the next segment, and again, it's probably best to pick a moment in all "universes" where dashing is the fastest option. s4 - Segment 6 "Auto-scroller" segment 2 Once again, the two leaders are really close together, almost matching each other's reported time in this segment. Curiously, Team 5 spends the fewest frames in this segment, beating Teams 3 and 4. It's hard to tell if this is an illusion caused by setting up the fastest possible Segment 6 which loses time on the surrounding segments, but then again, this shows just how many "good" ways there are in rushing through this complicated segment. There just isn't enough information reported in the single number by my segment counter script. Finding good measurement points to tell how good you're doing is going to be real tricky in and of itself, so I expect difficulties in comparing every team on this. Still, we're going to want to crawl through them carefully for any inspirations. s4 - Segment 7 Short right, auto-scroller aftermath This is a new segment in and of itself. Like with Segment 3, it's supposed to catch the player as they exit an auto-scroller, but since we broke those, it just looks like an extension of the previous segment. And it definitely feels like one, right up until we get to that ladder. Times are all over the place, with Team 7 winning here. Could be as simple as the camera being in a good spot relative to terrain, and this says nothing about their position to the ladder. Once again, we have difficult comparisons to make. s4 - Segment 8 Up segment Up the ladder, basically. This is where camera positions come back and skew the reported values, as no matter what we do, we need to reach that ladder on the far right. Naturally, teams that didn't Ghost Fall are more to the left relative to camera, and therefore the reported values claim they are slower than the two leaders by a significant margin, which is basically an illusion as they merely loaded the segment sooner. As for Team 3's lead over Team 4, I sure thought I had a clever idea during the DTC, but 12 frames? Hard to say, but I don't think the camera differences alone between these two teams can explain that. s4 - Segment 9 Door segment A short dash left, a jump, walljump, and another dash to the right as we rush the door. Team 4's route probably should be taken. I can't think of a lot to say. Then again, they do take some damage I couldn't avoid during the DTC. Ideas would be nice. s4 - Segment 10 Boss Use optimal boss strat. Which is always hit boss on first frame we can, and with enough damage dealt to count every hit point. There's a reason the two leading teams have identical times.

Posted: 5/23/2017 7:07 PM

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lapogne36

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Here are the optimizations I found after looking closely to the current wip and Team 3 run (up to segment 3 for now) : frame 30474 (X pos : 501) to frame 30646 (X pos : 949) : Team 3 took an alternative route, dodging one lag frame and starting to dash at the end of the section sooner. They reached the X position 951 two frames sooner. frame 31817 (X pos : 3885) to frame 32387 (X pos : 402) : The beginning is where Team 4 started to setup taking damage before the Miniboss, and the end is right before the ladder (both teams are far enough from the camera to setup the Ghost Fall). Team 3 was two frames faster (and ended up at the same X position), so that's what we should take. Note that you must delay by one frame the first Flame Charge else it's will not be sufficiently charged (with the current wip inputs), but then you can easily resync with Team 3 inputs without any time loss. Edit : Segment 3 : Ideally, headbonk and shooting the enemy would be the best, not sure that it's doable though. Getting Team 4 camera would also be better for hex-editing purpose. frame 33805 (X pos : 2173) to frame 34228 (X pos : 199) : Not sure about this one since team 3 started the section at X position 2174 and ended up at X position 200, which may have an impact overall (as well as the different camera setting). Despite significant differences in the route, both teams took the same time for this section, so it would be better to test both of them. I think these 4 points are the only possible improvements from Team 3 compared to Team 4

Posted: 5/27/2017 8:01 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Made a start here. Most of the changes are in the comments there. I'm generally putting aside ammo issues with the idea that I haven't planned ahead on changes to item drops. The main reason for Team 4's damage before the boss, during DTC, was so we can take the damage after the boss is in the dying state, giving our vertical motion 16 frames delay and letting us land on the terrain as it loads. Team 3 clearly didn't need that, so when I'm in more of a mood. I'll look at this spot and figure out the optimal strat. Then again, I lost 2 frames between two useful points of comparison. Could be the spot I paused in. Could be the invincibility 2-frame rule. EDIT: An attempt at handling the miniboss now. I strongly suspect there's a faster way, though.

Posted: 6/1/2017 8:36 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Stage 4 was looked over. The bests of three teams were used here (3,4,5). Careful item drop manipulation was required. At this point, our route opens up. Someone did Charge Swaps with the bubble barrier, which normally restricts weapon usage until 6 hits, but Charge Swap generally gets around that problem. This means we can use them in places where those needed 6 hits would have otherwise been a problem when we can't shoot for obviously required things like breaking certain walls, flying with Flame Charge, or beating up minibosses. Assuming no weapon in any of the later four stages are needed for any other of the later four stages, one would assume 4->5->6->2->3->END, as this requires only one frame of cursor movement each time to select the next stage. Problem here is that the stage entry can be delayed anywhere from 0 to 3 frames thanks to animation frame rule. This will need some analysis, though, but at least it looks like we're otherwise free to pick the order. Ah, anyway. Stage 4 is better optimized, so we should have fewer regrets poking at later stages at this point.

Posted: 6/2/2017 12:26 AM

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lapogne36

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Well, team 4 without the Missiles and Shurikens did better than team 3 on stage 3, and team 3 without Earth Power did better than team 4 on stages 5 and 6, so it isn't really helping... If you can get the best segments on stage 3 without the Missiles and Shurikens, then just go for it.

Posted: 6/14/2017 8:17 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Stage 3 redone. I didn't feel like I was missing any weapon needed to save even one frame, so this stage is essentially floating as to where it can go in the stage order. Item drops are very important, so item manipulation may cost or save a few frames from a different internal frame count. For those keeping score, 1200 frames of savings versus Team 4 so far. 43547 is when this TAS gets to stage select after Stage 3. 44747 would be when Team 4 got there (equal route so far). In terms of Stage select, 3>2>5>6>END, 3>2>6>5>END, 3>6>5>2>END, and 3>5>6>2>END all take identical cursor frames. In terms of animation frame rules: +2 - 3>2 +3 - 3>5 +1 - 3>6 Probably should check other stage transitions as well. Did different stuff with boss to play around with the fact I had 5 hits left on the barrier, but otherwise matched Team 4's time. I blame dialog frame rule for any slowness here. EDIT: My notes:

END FC MOD 4 == 1  Stage entry
s2  FC MOD 4 == 0
s3  FC MOD 4 == 1
s5  FC MOD 4 == 3
s6  FC MOD 4 == 0

            s2 s3 s5 s6 EN  s2 s3 s5 s6 EN
s4 exit: 3   3  1  1  3 --  +1 +0 +2 +1 --
s2 exit: 0  --  2  3  2  2  -- +3 +0 +2 +3
s3 exit: 0   2 --  0  3  2  +2 -- +3 +1 +3
s5 exit: 1   0  1 --  3  1  +0 +0 -- +1 +0
s6 exit: 0   2  3  2 --  3  +2 +2 +1 -- +2

         IN >1 >2 >3 >4 >E To
45623E - +0 +2 +1 +2 +3 +3 11
43256E - +2 +0 +2 +0 +1 +2  7
43265E - +2 +0 +2 +2 +1 +0  7
43562E - +2 +0 +3 +1 +2 +3 11
43652E - +2 +0 +1 +1 +0 +3  7

Top block. Entering a stage depends on the animation frame rule. The numbers basically state that, internal Frame Count modulo 4, if we enter a stage when that is true, we lose zero frames to the frame rule. Middle block. Left column tells me that, on exiting the stage, what the game's internal frame count modulo 4 is (during the block of lag before selecting the stage). This is based on teams who beat the respective boss the fastest. Left block tells me frame count modulo 4 is when selecting the target stage (accounting frames needed to select the stage, of course). Right block tells me how many frames I'm wasting on frame rule. Bottom block. Routes shorthanded. The IN column is how many additional frames we spend on input for cursor movement. The rest are the frame rules we're losing frames to, and our total frame loss. Three routes to pick try apparently.

Posted: 6/15/2017 10:35 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Try #1 Try #2 (best) Try #3 Oh, this routing isn't making things easy. There's a lot of things in there to test. I have spotted an enemy who remains existing while going to the miniboss. I suspect others already tried spiking it, but I would try my own charged spikeball just in case, and it's not even close when the spikeball hits the left edge of the screen. The miniboss fight is faster than other teams, at least, so I'm doing something right. I just don't like feeling there is something more right to do and I just haven't found it.

Posted: 6/23/2017 11:11 AM

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FatRatKnight

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Went back and did something different in Stage 7. Anyone got ideas on better ceiling clips? I was writing up stuff for the submission text, in case I ever finish this, so that I will have written stuff ready ahead of time. So, I realized an idea about the timing of our invincibility in Stage 7, and had some old memories that insisted we had to get invincible after the miniboss. Realizing just why after the miniboss was important, I also realize this reason is no longer valid thanks to skipping the miniboss, so now I pick an earlier spot to gain invincibility. Would be perfect if ceilings did not halt my ascension worse than what we had before. There is a visible hesitation at one of the ceilings now. Actually the whole ascent might need another look anyway. But hey, nice to catch any improvements before I get to the end. Sync is easy on 32-frame increments, but other than that, best hope you can get the item drops needed, and I chose to temporarily force the 32-frame sync by throwing away 8 frames. Don't do this for a final run.

Posted: 6/23/2017 8:23 PM

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lapogne36

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Well for the ceiling clips we did it with brute force, it was far more effective and less time consuming than doing them manually.

Posted: 6/23/2017 8:58 PM

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ThunderAxe31

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lapogne36 wrote:

Well for the ceiling clips we did it with brute force, it was far more effective and less time consuming than doing them manually.

Could you please provide more informations, or meybe some scripts you used?

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 6/24/2017 12:37 AM

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lapogne36

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http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/39902972814196237 Please say me if something isn't clear in the setup explanation.

Posted: 6/26/2017 7:15 AM

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Exonym

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Gotta say, it's lookin pretty smooth so far. Seems that bubble barrier glitch is coming in handy already. At first glance of the new stage 6, would it not be wise to dash to the right wall earlier, like say... frame 45511. I don't know at this point how many bubble barrier invincibility hits have taken effect. The thought for me is that there is more ground here to dash right on, since when you go to the right on that small ledge you are mostly in the air. I dont know if that long ladder is the problem, since climbing it is slower than wallkicking obviously. Just a suggestion if it hasn't already been tried. Another note, as you said it appears that enemy just before the miniboss is still present when the miniboss loads. Would it not be wise to grab the stage that gives the star powerup before stage 6 because of this? I'm fairly confident a charged star attack could hit that enemy, though I dont know if timing will work out. Edit: it appears I was looking at the wrong thing in the radar. I guess this is what happens when I dont view the TAS in so long. Now I'm not so sure a charged star attack would reach, at least at the desired timing. Okay, basically disregard everything I've said in this post. You actually get the star from this stage. I don't think I should be posting at 3AM half asleep about a game I apparently forgot.

Current thoughts: Hachiemon (J) for GBA.

Posted: 6/26/2017 9:27 AM

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ThunderAxe31

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Exonym wrote:

Okay, basically disregard everything I've said in this post. You actually get the star from this stage. I don't think I should be posting at 3AM half asleep about a game I apparently forgot.

Don't worry, I also often got the impression to have found possible improvements, and then figuring I was wrong after trying to put it into practice. Improvements often need hard trying, so your help is still appreciated.

my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"

Posted: 6/26/2017 1:04 PM

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FatRatKnight

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Had a similar thought at one point, though at least it didn't take me long to realize the fallacy of trying to do Stage 6 before Stage 6. Been sick for the past few days, mostly sleeping it off, but I'm recovering well. Considering how little I could do, haven't had a chance at any sort of progress, but I should resume shortly. ThunderAxe wasn't reading my first line right. The situation that Exonym was pondering was that we need the star weapon for any sort of hope on the Stage 6 miniboss skip. Meaning star weapon before Stage 6. To get star weapon, we clear Stage 6, hence, Stage 6 before Stage 6. This should be a very obvious problem at this point, having it explained out like this, so I'm outlining the fallacy of this piece by stating it so. Unless I don't know the proper meaning of `fallacy', in which case, please enlighten me on the actual word I should use.

Posted: 7/2/2017 8:06 AM

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FatRatKnight

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Exonym wrote:

At first glance of the new stage 6, would it not be wise to dash to the right wall earlier, like say... frame 45511. I don't know at this point how many bubble barrier invincibility hits have taken effect. The thought for me is that there is more ground here to dash right on, since when you go to the right on that small ledge you are mostly in the air. I dont know if that long ladder is the problem, since climbing it is slower than wallkicking obviously. Just a suggestion if it hasn't already been tried.

Sorry about responding to this particular suggestion so late, but now I am fully free of my sickness and can actually put decent effort into examining things. I actually did take a look at dashing on that strip there. Try #3 in this post. Yes, the ladder is in the way, but the walljump just below it lets us go up it part way at a high speed, and the wall above it is reachable from a bit lower than you'd expect. In fact, based on segment transitions, it's faster than my Try #2. The one flaw is my barrier doesn't hold up as well as I'd like, and I end up taking longer on the miniboss follow-up as a result. Mind, I was quickly putting together things in my attempts. As for whether there are optimizations to do there, I haven't gone over it carefully. But the suggestion is pretty good anyway, and probably should be taken if there's a way to make it work. My immediate concerns with the run is to finish re-optimizing the ceiling clips in Stage 7, then retry item manipulation in the following stages. There was something I've been meaning to look at anyway, and I mostly forgot about it until now.

Posted: 7/4/2017 2:37 AM

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FatRatKnight

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I have re-optimized the ceiling clips in Stage 7. Removed delay between Stages 7 & 1. Inserted 16 frames delay between Stages 1 & 4. I am not looking forward to fixing item drops with a timing 16 frames out of sync on a stage where refills are extremely important. Hoping the speediness isn't exclusive to when we started Stage 4. But hey, an annoying frame rule in Stage 1 is resolved. Cheers.

Posted: 7/5/2017 8:07 AM

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FatRatKnight

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Stage 4 accepted the change in item drops. Actually saved a frame rule. A bit tiring going over stages I already optimized. At least the only thing I need to do is figure out items. I want to look at something else for a bit, I recall Stage 2 needed a 4-damage weapon that didn't last after hitting something during DTC6, and I want to leave 6 for later. I already optimized Stage 3, and don't want to manipulate items again, so I'm probably just going to poke at Stage 5 as a means of continuing progress. I suppose I am going to manipulate items all over again when I do move Stage 5 around, unless I get lucky and it happens to line up on the 32-frame rule.

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