Some people prefer a more minimalist approach to entertainment and there is nothing wrong with that. Most people do seem to like your entertainment method and you should be proud of that. However, I don't see any need to declare any one entertainment method as superior, nor to be insulted when one does not like your own personal entertainment method.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Not everyone can be pleased, or has the same tastes, evidently. We've got the faster run here. Even with an overwhelmingly negative response, this should be published. The more monumental the game, the greater the controversy it would seem. The movie was faster, artistic choice is really a secondary feature, and I think a majority of viewers were more entertained by this run in any case. Not much more will be achieved in discussion.
The only reason I see to make this type of egocentric statement is to puff yourself up and suggest that your methods make you superior to others. As with anyone else's, your methods aren't superior...they are just different.
How did I make myself superior to others just by saying the fact that I did this run without additional tools? Isn't it how people normally make TASes? Honestly, MrWint's way of making a TAS looks superior to me, since very few people on TASVideos has his ability to create more advanced tools for TASing.
I won't reply to your further statements. Sorry for my "ego" or "egocentric statement" or "egocentric view" which you can't stop talking about.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
HappyLee wrote:
No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
The problem is, whether one is entertained or not depends on subjective factors entirely. Anything can affect one's mood, and mood can affect enjoyment. Also tastes differ. Enjoyment can't be guaranteed, no matter how hard you work. Maybe it has to do with inspiration instead? Hard work is good, and without it inspiration won't be able to make you generate highly impressive solutions. But hard work without inspiration, or not fully based on inspiration, is sometimes not as enjoyable as you'd expect.
HappyLee wrote:
So all I say is this: I didn't have to be so hard on myself when making this run and spend so much effort trying to bring this run into a new level of SMB TASing, just to have my work degraded by some people here. I could have done this the easy way, without having to worry about how to deal with every jump, every fireball, every detail, every new and exciting ways of killing enemies, new ways to show more glitches of this game, or where to slow down for entertainment. If people here can't appreciate it, why should I bother submitting my work on TASVideos at the highest standard possible? I could care less.
You're a creative person. TASVideos is a site for creative work. We highlight the most creative pieces of work, we value them a lot. But sometimes creative people don't notice that they still have directions to improve themselves. I think for a creative person, who also happens to be a hard worker, the right direction of improvement is becoming a professional.
Some people would say that once you start earning money with what you do, you are a professional, but I disagree: if you earn money with what you do, you're just really good a it. IMO, what makes you a professional (aside from the time and effort that you've invested into something over the years) is ability to look professionally at your own professionalism! When you know you're a pro, and you don't take it too seriously.
I have an example, my fellow Zubareus was making incredibly awesome covers on game music. Very talented, sophisticated stuff, he would always play a bit of the original tune, and then create all sorts of variations on top of it, that are not the same anymore, but similarly awesome. He was doing that for years. But always there was some degree of his audience that would move in and start bitching that he makes those variations instead of playing 100% as the original. Somehow they didn't care that the original tune was still there, they literally wanted him to stop building his own creative ideas on top. After years of that bitching he got demotivated and stopped developing original tunes. He actually started only playing the original as is.
What does it mean? His creativity that he dedicated so much effort to over the years, was not just ignored, it was disliked! He asked himself, why would I work so hard on my improvisations every time, if there will still be people who say "fuck this creativity, we want stupid midi-rips just like millions of others do, we don't understand art".
You see, creative people who invest tons of effort into their art can get demotivated, if some percent of their audience doesn't like how they do their art.
And what I want to say with all this, you will ALWAYS see some percent of people who don't care how much work you invest, how much you enjoy your own art, their taste is simply different! Do not let this kill creativity in you, become a professional upon your own skills. If somebody doesn't enjoy what you enjoy, it's not their fault, it's just their difference. Remember that there will always be people that do enjoy your art! Work for them, don't mind the haters, and your mood will be much much better.
After realizing that TASing is art I wrote this page:
http://tasvideos.org/TasingGuide/TASArt.html
I noticed you have quite some philosophy behind TASing, so that page might interest you.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Third, if you are unhappy with the way the site/community handles things, you are welcome to stop contributing. No one is forcing you to participate.
This is not an official notion. We want all TASers to feel comfortable here and contribute their works.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
DrD2k9 wrote:
You are not a mind reader. You don't know why any of the 'no/meh' voters (or 'yes' voters for that matter) voted the way they did unless they detailed their reasons in the discussion. All you have is speculation which is based on your assumed theory that people are voting negatively ONLY because of what happened with a different submission.
While your theory MAY be correct; it's also just as possible that your theory MAY be incorrect, and people voted the way they did because it's actually their opinion of the run. Everyone finds different things entertaining and unentertaining.
No matter how fantastic/entertaining you feel your own work is, it's wrong to project your hurt ego into someone else's reasoning for picking the voting options they chose. Doing so again suggests an egocentric view that you and your desires are more important to the site than the perspectives of the community.
That's ABSOLUTELY bullshit and you know it.
This submission got 6 No and 4 Meh votes, a total of 10 negative votes (20% of total).
MrWint's submission got 1 No and 3 Meh votes, a total of 4 negative votes (10% of total).
HappyLee's previous movie got a single No vote (1% of total).
And the movie before that, also done by HappyLee, got 1 No and 1 Meh vote (4% of total).
And so on.
Either everyone suddenly doesn't like HappyLee's entertainment choices for SMB anymore (which they consistently used to like for many years), or the reason they are voting No and Meh are completely unrelated to the movie.
Either everyone suddenly doesn't like HappyLee's entertainment choices for SMB anymore (which they consistently used to like for many years), or the reason they are voting No and Meh are completely unrelated to the movie.
Keep in mind that every year, new people enter TASing, with their own ideas on entertainment. It is very much possible for these people to not like this run's entertainment methods. Yes there are probably some that voted no or meh for reasons outside of the TAS itself, but I see no reason to assume all of these votes were for such reasons.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
Memory wrote:
Keep in mind that every year, new people enter TASing, with their own ideas on entertainment. It is very much possible for these people to not like this run's entertainment methods.
It also possible the same person that liked it back then was not entertained by segments which were played similarly because they've seen it already and want something different.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Keep in mind that every year, new people enter TASing, with their own ideas on entertainment. It is very much possible for these people to not like this run's entertainment methods.
It also possible the same person that liked it back then was not entertained by segments which were played similarly because they've seen it already and want something different.
Indeed, there are plenty of valid reasons for a change in voting behavior. We can't really assume. The actual posts are more important anyways.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Nach wrote:
Memory wrote:
Keep in mind that every year, new people enter TASing, with their own ideas on entertainment. It is very much possible for these people to not like this run's entertainment methods.
It also possible the same person that liked it back then was not entertained by segments which were played similarly because they've seen it already and want something different.
This is the 9th SMB warpless submission that got votes. All the previous 8 had much fewer No/Meh votes than this.
I won't say that it is impossible that a bunch of new people conveniently joined TASVideos just now and they don't like HappyLee's choices for entertainment, or that a bunch of people suddenly changed their minds or got tired of the 'same thing', despite they didn't get tired in the last 7 times and this run isn't that similar to the previous ones.
However, it's not reasonable to point to these possibilities as explanations to the votes while there is a much simpler and more likely possibility: people are voting No because of the discussion that happened 1 month ago, and not because of how entertained they were by the movie.
I'm aware the votes won't affect the movie's tier or the judging process, by the way. I know it's not a big deal. I'm bringing this up simply because that's not how we are supposed to vote.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
that's not how we are supposed to vote.
We're not censoring votes for a reason. But should we really switch to that topic here?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11495
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
p4wn3r wrote:
From my part, I think it's entirely unreasonable that every movie before this one had a given level of entertainment preferences and, somehow, coincidentally, after people stir a bit of controversy in the submission thread, the preferences of many users suddenly change and they don't find HappyLee's choices entertaining anymore. While everyone is allowed to exercise their subjectivity in rating something, no one deserves special treatment if the author has good reasons to believe the "rating" is bullshit also.
Maybe it has to do with the fact that there appeared a competitor out of thin air? I mean, before MrWint stepped in, everyone was taking HappyLee's work for granted, and now they are subconsciously challenging it?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Third, if you are unhappy with the way the site/community handles things, you are welcome to stop contributing. No one is forcing you to participate.
This is not an official notion. We want all TASers to feel comfortable here and contribute their works.
Just to clarify. I don't want Lee to leave. I think he's a fantastic TASer, and the community would lose a significant asset if he left. Which is why I followed my statement with "That said, I'm sure there are a significant number of people here who would be saddened to lose an accomplished TASer from our ranks."
HappyLee, I would really appreciate it if you addressed feos's post about professionalism and creativity. He brought up some really good points that I would like to hear your thoughts on, but it seems like you're purposely ignoring them.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
HappyLee, I would really appreciate it if you addressed feos's post about professionalism and creativity. He brought up some really good points that I would like to hear your thoughts on, but it seems like you're purposely ignoring them.
I totally agree on feos, and would like to thank him for his kind words and inspiration. Sorry that I don't have the energy to reply to everyone here, but I did read every post seriously. Also thanks to people who liked this run and for their support.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 12/28/2013
Posts: 396
Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
hopper wrote:
Memory wrote:
hopper wrote:
Don't like the way the waste-able frames were wasted? Make a better run. Voting based on your opinion of one of its authors? Grow up. Have anything else irrelevant to say? Keep it to yourself.
I'd like to say that requiring everyone who criticizes a work to make something better themselves is not being receptive to criticism. You don't have to be the cook to criticize the food. I would like to believe that the point of the workbench is provide constructive criticism to submissions, though replies like these unfortunately show that some users do not wish this to be the case.
Hold on there! I'm not trying to suppress helpful suggestions. Just remember that there's a line between a helpful suggestion and petty nitpicking. There's no question that this run is publishable because it's an improvement to an existing run. The entertainment factor is only going to determine tier. The current run is Moons, so this run would have to be noticeably less entertaining to not be Moons. The tier is usually determined by the game itself and not the TASer's artistic decisions, so I would expect the tone of the conversation about those decisions to be commensurate to their importance -- basically, a trivial aside. How are there pages of debate about the merits of an auto-publishable run? This should be uncontroversial, but I see people complaining about trivial stuff -- and yes, I'm using the word complaining, as opposed to "helpfully suggesting". By all means, make a helpful suggestion! Some people seem to have a compulsive need to find fault, while others seem to be making this personal. That ruins the fun for everyone -- especially the people who worked hard to make the run. I'm really just asking people to be civil and objective.
And yes, if you absolutely can't live with a TASer's artistic decisions, make something better!
I also have the feeling some people here dislike the run for personal, unrelated reasons and are trying to rationalizate that by searching for minor things they didnt like in the run.
And thats not "censoring constructive criticism", Memory. It's not that hard to understand. If I had put effort for many months in a very optimal run to have a lot of people complaining that I 'killed too many enemies" or "spit fireballs with the music too much", I'd also be upset.
There's a huge difference between criticism and opinion. Criticism (at least in the sense of artistic criticism) isn't about liking or disliking the end product, it's about showing that you understand what the creator intended, and offering advice about how they could have reached their intentions more effectively. In other words, you can dislike chicken, and you can criticize a cook for cooking chicken badly, but you can't criticize a cook for cooking chicken because you wanted steak instead. In the case of HappyLee, his artistic decisions were fully premeditated and intentional, and you can dislike it if you want, but it's unproductive to tell him that his artistic direction was a mistake.
Yeah, there's some mixed usage of the term "criticism" in this thread: I think it's mostly been about opinion.
But it's important to note why there's even a discussion: not because people really want to nitpick this movie, but because HappyLee and some other people were denying them their opinion. Some people voted "no" or "meh" perfectly honestly on entertainment (me included: I didn't know anything about MrWint's submission), and were greeted with comments like these:
HappyLee wrote:
I'm sorry to hear that. I don't know if that's your real judgement or just angry talk.
HappyLee wrote:
Entertainment is subjective, so could you answer the following question in general, just from your subjective point of view?
Do you like a TAS to be more like a superplay or a regular real-time speedrun?
If your answer tends to be the latter, then why not watch Kosmic's real-time speedrun? It's fast enough, and it's live. Why watch a TAS?
BrunoVisnadi wrote:
Indeed, I think it's pretty obvious most of the 'no' votes are from people who sided with MrWint in the previous discussion, and not from people who truly disliked the movie.
HappyLee wrote:
I'm not happy with some people here who didn't take voting seriously, of whom in this case there are too many. With so many "no" or "meh" votes, I have every reason to believe that maybe our hard work doesn't belong to TASVideos after all.
For a maxed out game like SMB, entertainment choices mean everything. Mario could have just run from the beginning to the end, which is so easy. Yet no one takes entertainment as seriously as I do, not even Mars608. I've been tirelessly digging out new entertainment strategies just to make the whole running process less boring. No one can imagine how pissed off I am to hear some people saying that this is somehow less entertaining than MrWint's run without providing evidence or details. Yes, entertainment can be partially subjective, but at least don't let your feelings go over the facts.
... And that's just the first two pages. That's why everyone's in here defending there no/meh votes. Not because we love to nitpick, but because we don't like being told our opinions are invalid.
To echo what Scepheo said, we're defending our votes because Lee wants to make us feel as if our votes are invalid.
So you're defending your votes, but I'm defending our work which shouldn't get so many unearned "no" or "meh" votes. Like I said, this particular run shouldn't be controversial at all.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
You then responded to Spikestuff saying that he got the credit he should have gotten and claim he only voted "Meh" out of spite, and then practically make fun of Kung Knut for preferring MrWint's style, saying that if he prefers that he should just not watch TASes.
I'm not a native English speaker, so could you please tell me how I "claim he only voted "Meh" out of spite" when I said "I don't know if that's your real judgement or just angry talk", and how did I "make fun" when I asked a serious question: "Do you like a TAS to be more like a superplay or a regular real-time speedrun?"
I specifically said that I asked a general question, and Kung Knut gave his answer: both. So he thought a TAS should be both like a superplay and a regular real-time speedrun. What else should I say?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
I specifically said that I asked a general question, and Kung Knut gave his answer: both. So he thought a TAS should be both like a superplay and a regular real-time speedrun. What else should I say?
No, I wasn't saying I need A tas to be both to enjoy it. I was saying I like both KINDS of tases.
I did enjoy both MrWint's AND your run. For this particular game and category, I happen to prefer the speedrun-like style a bit more. That is how I feel. One can be wrong about objective facts, but not about subjective opinions. And ths is my subjective opinion. And I am not wrong. Just as others that liked your run more are not wrong either. What IS wrong, though, is saying that people that don't share your own subjective opinion are wrong.
That said, I again state that I really like your run, and am very impressed with the work you put into it. Thank you for making it.
HappyLee, why didn't you bother actually bringing up that the file axe grab was a frame off? If we knew about this we could've fixed it to the "prefered" ending frame of Super Mario Bros. but no, you hammed it in through majority of the "discussion" on that submission and never brought it up only until your own submission.
Because he was in a frame war at that point and was worried that it would pre-empt the work that he had already done.
That being said, this is a great movie. I would like to see it submitted with Mr. Wint as a contributor as I think that is fairest to both TASers.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Joined: 10/29/2014
Posts: 176
Location: Bavaria, Germany
[quote HappyLee]
Not going to happen due to reason I already explained.
[/quote]
This however assumes Mr. Wint cannot or will not change his mind.
collect, analyse, categorise.
"Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;)
Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on.
1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans.
2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai.
(last updated: 18.03.2018)
ITT, how to ruin your reputation in a matter of days via pure arrogance. It's great to be passionate about what you do, and the more people like that the better, but when that passion blocks your ability to ponder viewpoints and feelings differing from yours, then you have a problem.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
how to ruin your reputation in a matter of days via pure arrogance.
If working hard on a project and defending your work is arrogance, then pardon me for being arrogant.
hopper wrote:
This should be uncontroversial, but I see people complaining about trivial stuff -- and yes, I'm using the word complaining, as opposed to "helpfully suggesting". By all means, make a helpful suggestion! Some people seem to have a compulsive need to find fault, while others seem to be making this personal. That ruins the fun for everyone -- especially the people who worked hard to make the run. I'm really just asking people to be civil and objective.
So true. I can't express it in better language so I just quote it.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
