You missed the point yet again. But, as several have raised it in this very topic and you still seem to not get it, I give up. At this point, all I can think of is recommending you to read this topic again in its entirety, paying special attention to the posts by the likes of Kung Knut, thecoreyburton, Memory, Scepheo, EZGames, etc, and your answers to them. Feel free to ignore Spike's, though, as his points, like most of the time, are invalidated by his inherent rudeness.
I admire MrWint for staying silent during this whole process, though. He could have said so many things, but still has been able to restrain himself from responding to unwarranted attacks to his work and to stay out of this whole debacle. Massive kudos!
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
Well.... This was a polarizing submission. I don't believe that Lee can expect 90+% of people to enjoy the run (I don't think that should ever be EXPECTED), because at the end of the day, it's subjective. I can show my absolute favorite TASes to a random person, and they'll either think it's boring because they're not into games, or think it's stupid because it was made with tools. All that to say, taste differs greatly.
Conflict isn't necessarily bad. Differing viewpoints are important. Yet, it's not beneficial to make personal digs at other people, or drag this on and on until each side gets more frustrated and acts worse. (A great portion of you haven't behaved poorly at all, which is encouraging, and I can't say I'm one of those people) We should be able to make constructive comments and criticism without personally criticizing the author, and likewise, the author should be able to respond to criticisms without making it personal.
I don't believe that Lee can expect 90+% of people to enjoy the run (I don't think that should ever be EXPECTED), because at the end of the day, it's subjective.
Actually, I did, because TASVideos to me was always a place of talented TASers and rational arguments, and where very few people put feelings over facts. My previous SMB warpless run received 49 "yes" votes and only two "no" and "meh" votes all together, and my SMB2J TAS a year ago received 60 "yes" votes and only one "no" or "meh" all together, while its improvement is much less significant compare to this run. Also, not a single negative comment by all means.
This run is literally my most satisfying work ever. It's one of the most important categories of one of the most famous and classical games. The improvements are all nearly impossible. I've worked very hard to make sure every detail is in perfection. To me, this is seriously bringing SMB TASing to a new level.
So we end up with a polarizing submission of a run that shouldn't be controversial at all. Many people claimed that the vote result (once and for a long time less than 80% "yes" votes) makes sense because it's "subjective". My question is, what changed?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
So we end up with a polarizing submission of a run that shouldn't be controversial at all. Many people claimed that the vote result (once and for a long time less than 80% "yes" votes) makes sense because it's "subjective". My question is, what changed?
I think at least part of the answer to your question here is that you under-estimate how much TASVideos itself changes over time. I briefly looked at profiles of the people who posted in your SMBJ2 run, and about half of them haven't even logged in since this run was posted. Several have not even logged in in 2018. I would be quite surprised if there was >50% commonality in voters between this one and your 2012 run. Even between this one and SMBJ2 I would be surprised if the commonality was more then 85%. Newer people I would expect less likely to find SMB highly entertaining, just due to having not grown up with it (it's 30+ yrs old after all.)
How is it polarizing?
Pros: Improvement to an existing run.
Cons: ?
NotoriouslyEpic wrote:
I can show my absolute favorite TASes to a random person, and they'll either think it's boring because they're not into games, or think it's stupid because it was made with tools.
Such people wouldn't be voting here.
TASing or playing back a DOS game? Make sure your files match the archive at RGB Classic Games.
...alright, enough is enough!
I am beyond disappointed in those that took part in the drama. From the accusations to the personal attacks being thrown around. As a community, we are supposed to be supportive and understanding of each other. We can't do that if we are quick to lunge at each other's neck like this. As individuals, we have opinions and feelings. We are free to express them so long as we do it responsibly. Shutting down that freedom to express them is not only irresponsible but also causes problems. As for the assumptions of peoples' motives for voting what they did without factual concrete evidence to prove it. That is basically jumping the gun and also served no purpose other than to add to the problem. While the possibilities of the majority of the votes could've been related to the drama from the thread for Mr. Wint's submission exists, the reverse could also exist. It's even possible that the numerous 'Yes' are biased as well for various reasons. You cannot truly make such reckless accusations on how a person voted. Nobody can make such claims. Just as you are allowed to express your likes and feelings in favor of the run, others have just as much liberty to express their dislikes and opinions on the run.
No one should have to resort to personally attacking because of differing opinions. And this goes to for EVERYONE! TASer and non-TASer alike. Have some humility and respect for yourselves as well as each other. Be humble and have a more opened mind when viewing another's opinion. As with many other things in life, entertainment is subjective and that subjective opinion varies from person to person. It's fine to have an artistic vision and be proud in it, but don't let that vision overtake rational thinking. Kudos to Mars608 and Mr. Wint for keeping a cool head throughout this and staying out of the chaotic mess.That being said...
The excessive attacks and arguing is over. I must highly suggest and recommend that everyone stay on the topic of the submission. Any further disruption of the thread WILL have staff intervention.
Cons: We can criticize this run for whatever reasons I feel like, but you can't even suggest our opinion is false or biased or stupid, since feelings (or anything subjective) can't be wrong. If you raise counterarguments with facts, it's called "shutting down the freedom to express" somehow.
GoddessMaria wrote:
Kudos to Mars608 and Mr. Wint for keeping a cool head throughout this and staying out of the chaotic mess.
So kudos for keeping silent? Are you suggesting that I should also keep silent and just pretend that all the negative votes and criticism towards our run make sense? So who's "shutting down that freedom to express"?
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
She is trying to say to stop the unnecessary drama, your run is a good piece of art, as I say before don't pay atention to some no votes and see the possitive support you have here.
To give a example: Its like if you want to people justify every dislike in your YT publications, it's almost the same case but in a less scale.
So kudos for keeping silent? Are you suggesting that I should also keep silent and just pretend that all the negative votes and criticism towards our run make sense? So who's "shutting down that freedom to express"?
Just stop it. You aren't doing yourself any favors by continuing writing like this. I know this from personal experience, believe me.
HappyLee, I don't believe anyone has said that your opinion is wrong, most posts have said that entertainment is subjective and nothing else. The only post I can recall saying that entertainment is only partially subjective was from you, so I don't believe that it's fair to stare that people are telling you you're wrong for having a different approach (rather, that they personally don't prefer your approach).
HappyLee, I don't believe anyone has said that your opinion is wrong, most posts have said that entertainment is subjective and nothing else.
DrD2k9 said I'm "egocentric", Zeupar said I'm "arrogance", EZGames69 said "I shouldn't have made it controversial", and you accused me for "starting this sequence of events". So basically many people are blaming me (and me alone) for this drama while justifying the voting result, while all I did was defending my work and saying this run somehow got unbelievably more negative votes than it deserves, and that people should vote seriously. Am I expected to just "keep silent" when this happens to our hard work?
Even I agree that entertainment is subjective, partially, but do not ignore the objective goals and principles in entertainment. It's in our guidelines, and this run happens to have followed every advice from our guidelines.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Okay, I will bite and talk to the wall again.
HappyLee wrote:
Cons: We can criticize this run for whatever reasons I feel like, but you can't even suggest our opinion is false or biased or stupid, since feelings (or anything subjective) can't be wrong. If you raise counterarguments with facts, it's called "shutting down the freedom to express" somehow.
Many people have expressed here and in MrWint's submission topic that they prefer pure optimization to playarounds during the "downtime" resulting from frame rules, even if the final frame count is the same. That approach is more entertaining for them. Which are these facts you mention that prove that their opinion is "false or biased or stupid"? Because that claim is so bold and presumptuous that I hope you have some undeniable facts to back it up.
Speaking of facts, MrWint's run's average entertainment rating is currently 7.9 (and that's including your and Mars' very low ratings) compared to the 8.4 of your 2012 run. Don't you think that a measly difference of 0.5 is not enough to repeatedly claim that your approach to TASing this category is undoubtedly superior?
HappyLee wrote:
DrD2k9 said I'm "egocentric", Zeupar said I'm "arrogance", EZGames69 said "I shouldn't have made it controversial", and you accused me for "starting this sequence of events". So basically many people are blaming me (and me alone) for this drama
Indeed, because you are the one to blame. Instead of interpreting the many posts by different people calling you out as "people is mobbing me for no reason", it would be wiser to read them as "maybe I am at fault if several people share these feelings about me. How can I improve so this doesn't happen again, especially in real life, where the consequences can be much worse than in a random internet forum?".
while all I did was defending my work
For a good example of how to defend one's work in a respectful manner, something that you seem to be quite bad at, check MrWint's posts here.
By the way, I have seen you using the language barrier as an excuse for your behavior, but that won't fly. When you consistently belittle MrWint's run and hard work and use terms like "laughable", "stupid", etc, you mean it.
In the end, being bothered by a few no votes and a bunch of people disagreeing with your entertainment choices doesn't make any sense, especially when we all know that Nach will accept this run with no shortage of compliments and TASVideos will move on.
Soig wrote:
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
Which are these facts you mention that prove that their opinion is "false or biased or stupid"? Because that claim is so bold and presumptuous that I hope you have some undeniable facts to back it up.
I've argued about this several times, and even wrote a long argument since so many people brought it up this time. The simplest fact I mentioned is that not slowing down is the easy approach. For more facts, please take a closer look at my arguments.
I've even brought up our guidelines, and it has a lot to support my approach. I don't know if those people have ever read it, so I'll just quote some of those here.
"Create art even when waiting."
"Do something unexpected."
"Be different. Take faster routes or shortcuts that no one takes, whether undesirable or impossible in real play."
"If you have the choice, try to do things in a more impressive way than the easy way. If enemies are hard to kill, kill them."
Zeupar wrote:
Speaking of facts, MrWint's run's average entertainment rating is currently 7.9 (and that's including your and Mars' very low ratings) compared to the 8.4 of your 2012 run. Don't you think that a measly difference of 0.5 is not enough to repeatedly claim that your approach to TASing this category is undoubtedly superior?
Again, I'm containing myself not to really comment on MrWint's entertainment because I hate to criticize his work, so pardon me for skipping this question.
Zeupar wrote:
For a good example of how to defend one's work in a respectful manner, something that you seem to be quite bad at, check MrWint's posts here.
By the way, I have seen you using the language barrier as an excuse for your behavior, but that won't fly. When you consistently belittle MrWint's run and hard work and use terms like "laughable", "stupid", etc, you mean it.
I agree that MrWint's manner is better than mine. For me, the language barrier is very real, and there's culture barrier, too, since I'm Chinese. It's also my style to argue straightforwardly instead of containing my choice of words for manner. To be honest, typing so many words already means lots of headaches for me, so I can't afford the extra time or energy to be polite all the time. Sorry.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
Cool down, Happylee. You have told and argued too much from MrWint's submission. Try keeping peace.
This is the most important reason that somebody blamed happylee, another reason is his rating for MrWint's tas.
I think this movie is near perfect, there are no enough reasons can vote no or meh, so they use only a stupid reason "downtime", and then balabalaba.
Come on, it can be fixed very easily. If happylee want to change, it could waste less than only one hour. But does happylee or mars608 really need make more than 3 or 4 version for making everyone happy or shut up?
In my snes super mario bro 2 tas, I downtime too, though because of the frame rule I have to downtime, but no one vote no for this reason. Maybe I'm very luck didn't tas a famous tas.
Though I dislike MrWint's tas, because of obvious low entertainment than happylee's old run, I still vote yes, because it is worth for yes. If there are only 1 or 2 persons use this stupid reason "downtime" and vote no or meh, it's ok. But too many persons did these, I don't think these is the personal behavior, it must be organized behavior, and they only want to blame happylee for their hero, MrWint.
Back to this tas, I suggest take off the star of [2676] NES Super Mario Bros. "warpless, walkathon" by Mars608 & HappyLee in 25:19.23. And accept this run for star, no matter how many no or meh got.
Sorry I ignore GoddessMaria's warning.
my comment for voters: don't let the feeling is dominant the decision.
what the vote title said? Did you find this movie entertaining? Oh yes, it didn't ask something like as "have you got entertaining from this submitter"
If you hate/unhappy/blahblahblah feel bad submitter, just silent or do nothing
No one here has confronted Lee personally for anything OTHER than how he has disrespectfully responded to other people's opinions regarding his work (which includes the voting tally).
It's never my intention to respond to others disrespectfully. I always aimed to argue rationally and respectfully disagree with some of the opinions, though I may fail without knowing it sometimes (because of my language and cultural barriers). And if that's the case, I apologize for that.
DrD2k9 wrote:
Some have simply expressed their perspectives on why they found the run entertaining or not.
Yes, and I have simply expressed my view (as one of the creators of this run) on their perspectives.
DrD2k9 wrote:
However, I believe that HappyLee's biggest problem with this submission/discussion is the that he simply can't accept that things didn't turn out exactly as he EXPECTED; and that, in my opinion, is arrogant/egocentric.
I don't think it's wrong to have expectations for hard work. After all, it's not like my expectations are anywhere near unreasonable. I already stated that it's perfectly normal to have 98% "yes" votes and no criticism for my run just a year ago. I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but this whole thing and sudden change seems more than a coincidence.
Many people justify the voting results without a satisfying answer to my question. I think the obvious answer is, that many people didn't vote seriously or rationally this time, or were just biased or making it personal. You said I made this claim without evidence, I don't, but I don't think I'm alone in questioning the voting result this time, and I don't think it's arrogant/egocentric to expect exactly what this run deserves.
Recent projects: SMB warpless TAS (2018), SMB warpless walkathon (2019), SMB something never done before (2019), Extra Mario Bros. (best ending) (2020).
That's a highly nontrivial achievement and I did not see anyone dispute that.
This should not be interpreted as belittling the run (and despite your statement, it was MrWint who actually assumed it was).
To sum up, what this looks like to me is: someone submits a TAS using cool and interesting techniques to a known game. People get overhyped because of "OMG BOTS", then an experience TASer comes and points out the simulation was incomplete, and then a group of people, after the hype dies out, start nitpicking and cast some very dubious "No" votes.
I love your posts because they are well articulated in general and usually include interesting points and arguments. That's why I am dumbfounded after reading the quotes above. It's like you read a different topic from the one I linked...
In any case, discussing that properly here is probably not worth our time, especially considering that Nach is about to "come up with a solution" for this topic, which might imply messing with its integrity and locking some replies away.
HappyLee wrote:
Many people justify the voting results without a satisfying answer to my question.
I guess you missed Alyosha's post:
Alyosha wrote:
HappyLee wrote:
So we end up with a polarizing submission of a run that shouldn't be controversial at all. Many people claimed that the vote result (once and for a long time less than 80% "yes" votes) makes sense because it's "subjective". My question is, what changed?
I think at least part of the answer to your question here is that you under-estimate how much TASVideos itself changes over time. I briefly looked at profiles of the people who posted in your SMBJ2 run, and about half of them haven't even logged in since this run was posted. Several have not even logged in in 2018. I would be quite surprised if there was >50% commonality in voters between this one and your 2012 run. Even between this one and SMBJ2 I would be surprised if the commonality was more then 85%. Newer people I would expect less likely to find SMB highly entertaining, just due to having not grown up with it (it's 30+ yrs old after all.)
By the way, I don't think it's really relevant, but since some people seem to care so much about votes, let me clarify that I haven't voted for either submission.
AzumaK wrote: I swear my 1 year old daughter's favorite TASVideo is your R4MI run :3
xxNKxx wrote: ok thanks handsome feos :D
Help improving TASVideos!
I love your posts because they are well articulated in general and usually include interesting points and arguments. That's why I am dumbfounded after reading the quotes above. It's like you read a different topic from the one I linked...
I really appreciate that you like my posts, Zeupar. I hope this discussion does not change that. All I can tell you is that I am completely sincere that I see absolutely no controversy in these topics. Since HappyLee agreed with me, I think my description of his intentions was accurate.
If you're interested in seeing where I come from, I recommend reading this book, about a rather extreme case. It's about a guy who was deliberately faking all his results and most people were simply not considering this possibility because his results were claimed to be revolutionary.
If you read the book in detail, you'll see that his fraud was rather bad, and most people who doubted the results did not accuse him of cheating directly. They first assumed they were true, but difficult to reproduce . Then, they thought the measurement was in error, only when they could not think of any honest error that could produce the results they started suspecting deliberate fraud. Nevertheless the managers were giving bad reviews for people who questioned because they were not "good team players".
Now, is it impolite to say the managers were ignorant when they messed up the whole thing? Perhaps, but this is a very accurate description, because that's exactly what they did! Sometimes, when you're an expert on something, it is your job to contain the hype, even if that goes against most people's expectations.
That's why I strongly recommend that people don't jump to conclusions when they see something like this. All that this thing has generated is several pages of nonsense and unnecessary tension between MrWint and HappyLee.
I'm one of the masses eating watermelon.
