Posted: 10/8/2018 7:28 PM
Post subject: Secondary game mode vs. Secondary character
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
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NES TAS of 2011
If there are several game modes available from the start, we allow every such mode to be published in Vault, counting each of them as vaultable any%. It's also possible to have a movie that beats all such modes in one go. http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#GamesWithAdditionalLevelSetsOrGames If there are optional characters available in the game (not necessarily from the start), we only allow the fastest one to be published in Vault as an any% branch. http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html#UsesASuboptimalCharacter The question is, how do we distinguish between them? If we have several chars from the start, and they play the same levels, but bosses differ, is it a secondary game mode? If some chars can access route deviations while the game otherwise remains the same, is it a secondary game mode? What if just a few levels are different? If the first release of the game had a char as a DLC, and then it was included and became available from the start, though it plays through the same levels, is it a secondary game mode? In S3&K, Knuckles plays different levels than Sonic, so he can arguably be called a special game mode. In Shovel Knight, the Plague character was a DLC, and then was included in the game. His movie is shorter. He plays the same levels as Shovel Knight. I would not dare to call Shovel Knight a suboptimal character for that game...
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/9/2018 12:40 AM
Post subject: Re: Secondary game mode vs. Secondary character
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Radiant
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Joined: 8/29/2011
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feos wrote:
In Shovel Knight, the Plague character was a DLC, and then was included in the game. His movie is shorter. He plays the same levels as Shovel Knight.
He doesn't, actually. There is overlap, but Plague Knight's levels (and side areas, and some bosses) are more different from Shovel's than Knuckles's are from Sonic. But yeah, tough question. While some games have all levels exactly the same for each character, and other games have them completely different, there's probably a gray area (i.e. judges' discretion) where the levels are slightly different, so different-enough according to some players and not-different-enough according to others. I don't see a practical difference between DLC, available from start, and DLC-then-later-made-available-from-start.
Indie game developer
Posted: 10/15/2018 4:50 PM
(Edited: 10/15/2018 5:04 PM)
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
After a short talk with Nach, we've agreed to set a cutoff like this: When the option to select an alternate character is available from the start, and it offers more than a half of unique levels or bosses (or otherwise majority of gameplay inherently becomes exclusive to that character), we count this char as an alternate game mode, and therefore allow for Vault as a side branch. If an alternate character results in less than a half unique gameplay, it counts as simply different character, and only the fastest character choice is allowed for Vault.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/15/2018 4:56 PM
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Memory
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Why half? Any particular reasoning behind that cutoff point?
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
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Posted: 10/15/2018 4:56 PM
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feos
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Because more than a half means majority.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/15/2018 6:03 PM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Added here http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#Vault_2
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/16/2018 2:16 PM
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Warp
Banned User, Former player
Joined: 3/10/2004
Posts: 7698
Location: Finland
Does "unique gameplay" also encompass a situation where the entire game is the same for both characters, ie. there are no levels or other content that opens up only when selecting one of the characters but not the other, but the game is a non-linear metroidvania type game and one of the characters has gameplay mechanics that allow for a drastically different route through the map than the other, effectively giving more than 50% of different content to be displayed during the run? Or is that still just a "sub-optimal character" situation? Edit: Reading the above, I find it a bit confusing. So, to clarify: In a metroidvania-style non-linear game there are two characters to choose. The optimal game completion for one character is quite different than the optimal game completion when using the other character (even though the entire map is accessible to both characters). These two paths are so different that they show more than 50% of different parts of the game. Is this situation still just a "uses sub-optimal character" for the slower path, or is this considered two alternate game modes as per this rule?
Posted: 10/16/2018 3:03 PM
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feos
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They key word is "inherently". If paths are optional, and any character can visit them, they do not inherently feature exclusive path variations.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 10/16/2018 5:03 PM
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Warp
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I don't think the word "inherently" implies that. Maybe it could be worded more clearly?
Posted: 10/16/2018 5:22 PM
Post subject: Re: Secondary game mode vs. Secondary character
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Radiant
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Off the top of my head I cannot think of any game with a character selection where one of the chars has as much as 50% unique levels and bosses. For instance, this seems to rule out all the Castlevania alternate characters for the vault. Of course that doesn't matter for Castlevania or Shovel Knight since they're in higher tiers anyway, but I would like to hear a couple examples of games that would still allow their alternate character in the vault, under this rule.
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Posted: 10/16/2018 5:25 PM
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Nach
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If it rules out all alternate characters from the Vault, that's fine. The point is to allow alternate modes which show different gameplay. Alternate characters are not different modes unless they significantly alter the gameplay.
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Posted: 10/16/2018 6:51 PM
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Radiant
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
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Nach wrote:
The point is to allow alternate modes which show different gameplay. Alternate characters are not different modes unless they significantly alter the gameplay.
Yes, we get that. Since there is a difference between "significant" and "more than 50%", I'm curious what games meet this 50% benchmark. If the goal is to flat-out ban alternate characters from the vault, then it would be more straightforward if the rule said so.
Indie game developer
Posted: 10/16/2018 7:53 PM
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feos
Site Admin, Skilled player (1236)
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NES TAS of 2011
Flat-out ban has been there for 6 years. The goal is to set a sensible cutoff for weird cases we weren't so sure about.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.