Donkey Kong

for Commodore 64 (because the workbench needs more DK games).
This run uses the Atarisoft port licensed by Nintendo. There is also a 1980's port published by Ocean and a 2016 port by Oxyron.

Goal

  • Beat all unique sub-stages as quickly as possible.

Game Notes

  • This particular port of DK has all four sub-stages seen in the arcade version. This port, however, does not include the "How high can you get?" screen with stacked DKs.
  • Tricks
    • Ladder Boost - Only when traveling from left to right, climbing a ladder for 1 frame then immediately returning to the ground positions Mario further to the right on-screen than he would have progressed simply running past the ladder. This works with both ascending and descending for the first frame (broken ladders cannot be descended). This trick is used in both girder stage and rivet stages.
    • Spring pseudo-clip - While jumping normally loses a pixel of horizontal distance compared to running the same number of frames...On the top of the elevator stage, it is possible to jump toward an oncoming spring so that Mario can progress past the spring without being hit even though the spring would hit him if he were just running. This is not jumping over the spring (which I couldn't accomplish anyway), it's jumping through it. This trick is not used in this submission.
    • No other beneficial glitches were found in this port.

DK for C64 can be considered endless.

  • There's no kill screen (that I could find in my testing).
  • Once level 99 is beaten, the game drops to level 0 then back to level 1 and loops.
  • Contrary to the game manual, DK does not increase the rate of barrel rolling at higher levels.
    • In all levels there is a 90 frame wait for DK to turn to grab a barrel. DK turning back to center requires 39 more frames. At this point he will either:
      • Immediately drop the barrel and the 90 frame counter then starts over. The barrel will fall either straight down or along various angles downward.
      • Turn a second time (after 39 more frames) to roll the barrel along the girders. He then takes 24 more frames to return to center for the 90 frame counter to start.
  • There were, in fact, no discernible difficulty variations between various levels.

Determining game-end

There is no kill screen, so as per movie rules, we must determine where difficulty stops increasing and no new content is left to complete.
As with the arcade version, there are 4 different sub-stages in this port.
The game can be started on any of levels 1-5. Which level is chosen determines the cycle of sub-stages through the first few levels as follows:
  • Level 1 - Girders, Rivets
  • Level 2 - Girders, Conveyors, Rivets
  • Level 3 - Girders, Conveyors, Elevators, Rivets
  • Level 4 - Girders, Conveyors, Girders, Elevators, Rivets
  • Level 5 - Girders, Conveyors, Girders, Elevators, Girders, Rivets
Level 6 and onward are identical to level 5 even after the level rolls from 99 to 0 and back to level 1.
Since difficulty doesn't vary between levels. This chart clearly shows the shortest path to see all 4 unique sub-stages is by starting at Level 3 and simply playing directly through the 4 sub-stages to see all visually unique content. (This submission.)

HOWEVER!!!!

There are technically more than 4 unique sub-stages in this game.
In memory, there are actually 20 different unique values for sub-stages.
Starting from Level 1, every sub-stage has a unique memory identifier up through level 5. Level 6 and onward uses the same memory identifiers as level 5.
Levels with multiple girder sub-stages, use different identifiers for each girder sub-stage within that level.
  • There are 8 total values for the girder stage.
    • The only discernible difference between these is the direction of the first barrel throw; all other gameplay mechanics are the same.
  • There are 3 values for the conveyor stage.
    • I couldn't identify any specific variations.
  • There are 4 values for the Elevator stage.
    • The first spawning of a spring seems to have a slight difference in timing between these.
  • There are 5 values for the Rivet stage.
    • No identifiable variations.
So the question really becomes "Where do we start playing this game?"
  • Generally we allow/encourage starting at the highest difficulty selection available from the beginning of a game. Which would be level 5 in this port.
    • But as already mentioned difficulty itself doesn't vary between levels, so is starting at Level 5 actually a 'higher difficulty' than starting at Level 1, 2, 3 or 4?
  • Then there's the issue of unique content...rules state that the game must reach a point where no new content will appear. Thus it must be determined what is considered unique enough for publication purposes:
    • If unique can be considered visually unique, then this submission (starting at level 3) should qualify as the fastest method of seeing all visually unique content; even though it neither plays the 'hardest' difficulty available from the start screen nor plays the last available unique sub-stage memory identifier.
    • If however, unique content is based on the technicality of sub-stage memory identifier; the only way to truly have no further unique content is to complete Level 5. This approach however, results in a longer more repetitive run due to the 2 additional girder sub-stages which themselves offer nothing new or unique visually.
      • If it's determined by the community/staff that this is the necessary approach, I have also completed a run using this method available here. Some tricks are/aren't used in that run compared to those used in this submission.
As a side note, to see ALL technically unique content (in regards to sub-stages) would require the game to start at level 1 and progress all the way through level 5 resulting in a MUCH longer video.

Special thanks to Fortranm

Having recently submitted multiple ports of DK, he was struggling to get the C64 version working. I originally started this as way to help him use C64 in BizHawk, but ended up doing all the recording. He also offered some good insight to a few things in the run as well.

feos: More DK and endings! Judging...
feos: There's an ending, and this movie chooses the setting that shows all the 4 unique levels of the game, so we don't treat this as a looping game without an ending.
I tried out a few places where this run loses a bit of time to avoid things, and couldn't manipulate them to co-operate, so it's decently optimal.
Feedback was lacking, and even though this game looks quite similar to Arcade DK which is in Moons, all other ports of this game are in Vault, and there's less subjective nostalgia and whatnot related to those, so I do not expect this movie to be rated high either. Accepting to Vault.
feos: Until game version shows up on TVC, re-adding "Atarisoft" to the game title :(
Spikestuff: Publishing.


TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15577
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6218: DrD2k9's C64 Donkey Kong (Atarisoft) in 01:47.81
Spikestuff
They/Them
Editor, Publisher, Expert player (2642)
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6438
Location: The land down under.
I'm personally not a fan of TASes that jump to a set level and not complete the loop that's in the game which you happily pointed out. Much like this Submission which got rejected last year for well the reason I just wrote: #5950: Quibus's Coleco Galaxian in 00:22.97 Late Edit: It's worth pointing out these two submissions from last year that has concerns on the basis of the movie similar to what this one has. One was rejected whilst the other accepted (appropriately ordered). #5993: klmz's NES Donkey Kong 3 in 00:48.00 and #6077: Cyorter's NES Donkey Kong, DK Jr., DK 3 & DK Jr. Math in 01:18.39
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account. Something better for yourself and also others.
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1090
Location: US
Spikestuff wrote:
I'm personally not a fan of TASes that jump to a set level and not complete the loop that's in the game which you happily pointed out. Much like this Submission which got rejected last year for well the reason I just wrote: #5950: Quibus's Coleco Galaxian in 00:22.97
Thanks for your opinion, but please specify exactly what pathway you feel would be required for completion. Which of the following would you require? -Starting and completing just Level 5 -Starting from Level 1 and completing level 5 -Starting from Level 1 and completing all 100 levels to return to level 1 -Something else? The problem I have with any of those specific options is that none of them offer any additional unique visual content or harder difficulty compared to the current submission (unless you count the order of sub-stages as visual content). Adding a sub-stage doesn't make a game harder from a TAS perspective. Truly it doesn't make the game harder for a human player....it just offers more opportunities for a human to screw up before reaching a higher level. Thus the difficulty hasn't increased, it's just prolonged. It's true that the sequence of sub-stages varies between the current submission and level 5+ but there's no gameplay differences or difficulty variation within those sub-stages. These are my opinions. Thank you for yours. I fully expected the community's perspectives to be a bit split on this submission, which is why I noted that I have a completed run which begins at level 5 ready to go. I do not have a level 1-5 run prepared, but would be willing to make it if necessary (as boring as it would be to watch the various stages repeated 20 times). EDIT: I'm not interested in doing a level 1-100 run.
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
Yay, more donkeys monkeys! I agree with your reasoning. Since there is no harder content at higher-numbered difficulty levels, the run which visits all unique content as quickly as possible is the way to go. I don't think that the same level with a different random seed (as shown by the different "first barrel throw" on girder stages) counts as different levels. The same reasoning was used to accept [3452] C64 Congo Bongo by DrD2k9 in 00:32.58. FWIW the Galaxian submission linked by Spikestuff does in fact get harder on higher-numbered difficulty levels, whereas this game does not. Yes vote.
EZGames69
He/They
Publisher, Reviewer, Expert player (4460)
Joined: 5/29/2017
Posts: 2761
Spikestuff wrote:
Late Edit: It's worth pointing out these two submissions from last year that has concerns on the basis of the movie similar to what this one has. One was rejected whilst the other accepted (appropriately ordered). #5993: klmz's NES Donkey Kong 3 in 00:48.00 and #6077: Cyorter's NES Donkey Kong, DK Jr., DK 3 & DK Jr. Math in 01:18.39
I dont see how this is relevant since that’s an issue with DK3, not the original DK.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 1/27/2014
Posts: 181
1 to 5 would seem the appropriate order, given as the game presents them in that order.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
This game has an ending guys.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1090
Location: US
feos wrote:
This game has an ending guys.
Are you referring to the bit with Mario and Pauline up top at the end of the Rivet stage? If that qualifies as an ending, then simply playing through level 1 would be the absolute fastest way to complete the run. (And I'll gladly do it if that's all it will take!) I didn't expect that brief scene to be considered enough of an ending to not consider this an endless game. If only level 1 were played, there'd be potential future unseen content (conveyor and elevator stages) that would arise if the game was continued further. I always took that scene as a 'fooled you' by the developers, and didn't consider it a 'clear ending'. If for no other reason, because the happy music in that scene becomes suddenly foreboding over the last 3-4 notes suggesting that things aren't over yet. But hey, you're the senior judge, so I'll defer to you on when this game actually ends.
Site Admin, Skilled player (1254)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
#5325: £e_Nécroyeur's Arcade Donkey Kong in 01:29.94 About difficulty settings available from the start. If gameplay would look the same, use easiest. If more of the game would be shown or it would be objectively harder to play and to TAS, use hardest.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Fortranm
He/Him
Editor, Experienced player (878)
Joined: 10/19/2013
Posts: 1121
DrD2k9 wrote:
If that qualifies as an ending, then simply playing through level 1 would be the absolute fastest way to complete the run. (And I'll gladly do it if that's all it will take!)
Given the nature of this game, it probably doesn't deserve more than one runs. Therefore, IMHO, the best interpretation of this rule in this case is probably that the game CAN be considered completed whenever that cutscene plays and thus your movie beats the game after completing all 4 visually unique stages.
nymx
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2234)
Joined: 11/14/2014
Posts: 932
Location: South Pole, True Land Down Under
I'm in the opinion that if a game repeats and no level of difficultly occurs, then this is a complete run. In fact, I believe that Vault was brought in to the mix so that situations like this can be addressed. On a side note, my favorite systems were the Commodore computers (64 and Vic-20) and the Colecovision. Most of the games didn't play in the same fashion as we have today, where an ending is clearly identified. Sadly, I never purchased DK as a child. But, I'm voting yes for creativity in RNG manipulation to produce what seems to be an unbeatable time. Edit: I was also surprised to see a conveyor belt level for the C-64. I remember seeing something like that, but wasn't sure what system it came from. I wonder if I saw it on the version that Adam released.
I recently discovered that if you haven't reached a level of frustration with TASing any game, then you haven't done your due diligence. ---- SOYZA: Are you playing a game? NYMX: I'm not playing a game, I'm TASing. SOYZA: Oh...so its not a game...Its for real? ---- Anybody got a Quantum computer I can borrow for 20 minutes? Nevermind...eien's 64 core machine will do. :) ---- BOTing will be the end of all games. --NYMX
DrD2k9
He/Him
Editor, Judge, Expert player (2213)
Joined: 8/21/2016
Posts: 1090
Location: US
nymx wrote:
Edit: I was also surprised to see a conveyor belt level for the C-64. I remember seeing something like that, but wasn't sure what system it came from. I wonder if I saw it on the version that Adam released.
IIRC all three Donkey Kong ports on C64 have all four sub-stage.
Post subject: Movie published
TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15577
Location: 127.0.0.1
This movie has been published. The posts before this message apply to the submission, and posts after this message apply to the published movie. ---- [3887] C64 Donkey Kong (Atarisoft) by DrD2k9 in 01:47.81