huh guys, i hate to be that guy but, we're talking about TASBot there, not what or what not the charity might or might not do
Well, the question of financing the TASbot presentations on GDQ has become a big issue, because it's not free, and the issue that donations, and overall interest, by the community are waning. The point was brought up that one aspect of this might be, in some cases, that some people don't trust the charity organizations for which the donations are going to. This led inevitably to the discussion of why.
well that's the problem with charities, someone always has something to says agains (for diverses reasons) and of course since it's donations, they have the right to not donate they don't like the charity.
the only thing i can say is that to that is simply to do research on the charity and donate if you find the results satisfying. (sites like https://www.charitywatch.org are a good start)
now if peoples want to suggest a "TASBot block" to others events than GDQ supporting other charities, they are free to suggest those over there or even to dwango's if they want his participation; and if the community approves why not.
Thanks for the feedback, keep it coming. A couple of points - I don't think that TAS content at GDQ's has "jumped the shark" in the classic sense as we're not so desperate for views that we're trying anything and everything to retain them. Having said that, we're possibly in a midlife crisis. We're 5 years in to something that I anticipate will be a 50 year journey so perhaps that's not apt either, more like we're having growing pains, but you get the idea. And yes, I plan to be doing this for 50 years. Maybe not the same form, maybe not the same "traditional" consoles that we use now that will be archaic in 50 years when I'm in my 80's, but a continuing, evolving concept of using physical hardware and tools to create art.
I think this is a good explanation of the current situation. There isn't really a clear path forward from here. Even with LibTAS, only very few games are worth presenting in traditional TAS style that could actually be entertaining (Celeste being the current example.)
What comes to mind for me for a good direction to look in is things like 'Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing' or the similar thing Masterjun did a while back with Kirby's Air Ride. I think it's unintuitive and silly goals like this, yet still easy to understand and follow, that could provide the most entertainment.
Of course they are also much harder to come up with. And you have to be careful they don't become gimmicky and boring like Scribblenauts.
___________
On a completely separate note, there seem to be more and more dead ends lately in terms of getting things to actually work. Obviously I'm not privy to the details, but this seems to have eaten up a rather large amount of time. Maybe it's time to set out a semi-formal roadmap of things that need to be done / researched and what future work this could enable. Some focused R&D seems necessary, and not just for immediate needs, thinking a few years down the road.
What comes to mind for me for a good direction to look in is things like 'Luigi wins by doing absolutely nothing' or the similar thing Masterjun did a while back with Kirby's Air Ride. I think it's unintuitive and silly goals like this, yet still easy to understand and follow, that could provide the most entertainment.
I second that kind of content. Playarounds or exotic goals/categories that we can't see with unassisted runs. With big bonus points if the games are quite well known or easy to "get".
The TAS block can try to amaze people with technical prowess or make them laugh. If the viewers are amazed and laughing at the same time, you win big time, but the "amazing" part is more "hit or miss" than the "laughing" one, and needs more work, preparation, even maybe money, etc... I mean for Dwango and the people that go and do the presentation on site.
For example, with Brain Age, I'm not sure that many people were entertained by the fact that it was actually a DS console verification; but it was obvious that the whole intro sequence was fun to watch for everybody.
To go back way earlier in time, we had the Gradius TAS (the first time). Ok, it desynced (which was somewhat entertaining in fact ^^), but what we saw of the actual run was funny because of the absurd speed and movements of the vic viper.
In other words, my sentiment is that the technical side of the presentation is way less important than the in-game content for the average viewer. And that technical side is apparently the stressful part, what causes last minute tests, uncertainty during the show (which can prevent you from focusing on the commentary).
What I suggest is to put less emphasis on technical prowess: as long as you can show something that make people laugh, you're successful.
By the way, I don't remember if we ever had the ISS Deluxe TAS on a GDQ event. That's the prime example of what kind of content I think would work wonders, even without any console verification or fancy presentation. And we shouldn't worry too much about showing "old" movies, I think the majority of those events' viewers don't visit TASVideos and can appreciate the "old classics" we all know here.
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player
(3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
Sorry I didn't post this sooner, but I just wanted to say that this years TASblock was one of the best all time. In fact, I'm surprised by all the negative comments in this thread.
Mashbot was awesome, hilarious, and impressive all at the same time.
Funkmastermp was amazing. He was so into what was going on and I think everyone fed off his energy. Marathon blocks are at their best when someone has that kind of energy and passion for what they are doing.
I hope to see him again in future GDQ events :)
What I suggest is to put less emphasis on technical prowess: as long as you can show something that make people laugh, you're successful.
This actually delves into the irony of what I have been commenting about: GDQ is (for the most part) about completing games as fast as possible, ie. speedrunning. TASes, and what tasvideos.org is about, are (for the most part) about completing games as fast as possible. Yet, ironically, the TASbot block of GDQ is expected to do something "funny" rather than just completing games as fast as possible.
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that's a bad thing that needs to be changed. I just find it ironic. And perhaps, in a sense, a bit unfair. It's a bit unfair in that if we want to present TASes at GDQ, we are pretty much in essence obliged to create "funny" original content that's specifically crafted for GDQ, and which has little to do with what we normally do here at tasvideos.org. It's ironic that a good portion of the material presented at GDQ is not representative of tasvideos. It's ironic that simply showing "normal" TASes, as the ones published here, would be considered "boring", even though completing games as fast as possible, regardless of the means, is what GDQ is all about.
Sure, sometimes speedrunners will exhibit other kind of content, such as glitch exhibitions, but these tend to be just bonus content (typically after the actual speedrun of the game has been completed) rather than the main content. The standards seem to be different for the TAS block.
But, as said, maybe that's just how it is, there's nothing wrong with it, and there's no changing it. I just feel that it causes more work for the people creating the GDQ TAS content. Most of that work is simply presented at one GDQ event, and that's it. It's like an ice sculpture or a sand castle: It's made once, it looks gorgeous, but then it smelts away and it's gone.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Nicos wrote:
well that's the problem with charities, someone always has something to says agains (for diverses reasons) and of course since it's donations, they have the right to not donate they don't like the charity.
I realize that no charity is completely perfect but I do expect charities to at least spend the money where they say they will and at the percentages of overhead they say they attempt to achieve. As I've stated before, I've had conversations in person with both PCF and MSF/DWB representatives and I have no current concerns. I respect that others have different beliefs and concerns. To that end, if someone donates to help get TASBot and I to an event they can say they don't want me to tithe on it if they disagree with the event charity (whatever that may be, even if it's NAMI if I happen to attend RPG Limit Break).
There's a non-monetary aspect to this that should be considered. GDQ's regularly garner 200k simultaneous live views on the main channel not counting all the poverty / community restreams that probably add up to another 50k at any given time and the large number of views on YouTube after the event that usually equal about that number. In other words, it's not uncommon for something we do at a GDQ to be seen by half a million people. TASVideos does not get that many views for the vast majority of our content. The TASVideos YouTube channel has only 13 videos with more than 250k views, of which 4 are GDQ event videos. Meanwhile, the most viewed video on GamesDoneQuick's channel is micro500's Brain Age with 3.1M views. I hope the statistics speak for themselves - even if you are antagonistic about one or another charity there's something to be said about the monumental exposure this affords us.
One other note I'd like to throw out there. The "weakest" entry at AGDQ 2019 for TAS content was arguably Castlevania due to the sub-par commentary. Despite that, the comments in my own YouTube channel for Castlevania are largely positive. Yes, there are a couple of comments noting that the commentary was weak, but overall the response was not nearly as negative as here or on Reddit. This isn't to say I don't feel there's room to improve, on the contrary I'm quite embarrassed at the lack of polish - this is to say that in a different context this content that everyone here seemed to think was close to unusable is still being received well enough on its own merit when viewed through a different lens.
Some people really want to just see TAS's played back with good commentary (again, I'd point to Item Abuse 3 as a prime example of what good commentary can look like). Some people enjoy seeing things like MASHBot, and given the coverage at https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2019/01/meet-mashbot-the-touchscreen-tapping-nintendo-ds-playing-robot/ that includes at least one journalist. Some people like to see ACE content, either the process of getting there or the results after the fact. Some people like interactive segments where Twitch chat can get involved.
The real question is how to do each of those types of content on a rotation with a good balance and with exceptional polish as is fitting for a site like TASVideos and to do all of that without causing burnout to those involved. It's a challenge I've been trying to keep under check for over 5 years and while I'd like to think I'm getting better at it I've also continued to fail largely due to the sheer scope of such undertakings. And let's face it, I'm going to keep making some mistakes and things are going to go wrong because even the simplest thing we do is still monumentally complex. That's just the nature of this kind of content, even simple runs that should just be a matter of providing commentary because it's nearly impossible to explain everything in the time allotted, and adding more time to talk before or after the run often does more damage than good by appearing boring. People who are new to the project sometimes choke on camera (*you* try standing in front of a room with several hundred people in it and a camera with tens if not hundreds of thousands and see if you perform at your peak every time). This stuff is hard. Doing it well is hard. We do this *because* it is hard.
If this wasn't hard no one would be watching. So let's keep doing hard things, but let's try a little harder to do them better in a way that doesn't make people break down and burn out. Let's do less, better. Let's do variety better. Let's work together better. Let's try to find common ground around what unites us - using tools that assist us flawed humans to create art that we can show to other flawed humans in a public display. Let's go make some art together. If you don't want to help make art and just want to be a critic there's room for you too (but know that those of us making the art might have our own tastes.)
There is room for all who want to make art and do the hard things we do, even if you don't like a given charity and even if you only want to work on the kind of art that *you* want to make. Let us not be divided by what makes us different but be united by what we all find interesting: using tools to assist humans in making things of beauty that will still be remembered 50 years from now.
Your YouTube channel might be fine with how the Castlevania run was presented but on TASVideos or on GDQ you need to see what they're talking about to round it off.
You cannot stay in a single circle when there's another 2 waiting for you to see them and to reflect on their comments as well.
Your own channel will usually be more supportive to you and that's a given and that's usually a positive to keep on persevering but as people have pointed out in both the forums and mainly the GDQ upload it's not best to wrap around yourself around that.
Yes, you can have the one or two comments going about the commentary compared to the vast majority but on the official hub for GDQ they can and do have a different story to your own account.
This is the importance of compare and contrast. If you're only listening to a single hub, it's not the best indicator. Even Reddit won't be the perfect round off as even there is split to different sections.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Given that most of my comments in this thread have had a somewhat neutral-to-slightly-negative slant to them, I would like to balance that with a bit more positive feedback. Not just this one GDQ event, but the TAS block at GDQ in general.
I have commented now several times how it feels like the TAS block has created a kind of separate independent category of TASing, which is distinct from what we do here, and that the (mostly naturally formed, rather than imposed) requirements for the TAS block feel a bit unfair, given that they are so different both from the regular GDQ speedruns and the normal stuff we do here at tasvideos, which imposes a quite large burden on the people creating the content for the TAS block, and presenting it.
However, there are also quite positive things that have been created, which could perhaps never have happened if it weren't precisely for the above.
While, IIRC, console verification was being developed before and independently of GDQ, I think the GDQ TAS block has really boosted the development of that technology, taken it into levels that we could have never imagined before, and made it into an artform. The people involved in this research and work probably now understand console verification better than could perhaps have never been possible if it hadn't been for the incentive that GDQ provided. Completely new insight into, and new information about these old consoles has been gained due to this work.
The results have oftentimes been quite astonishing. Things that nobody could have even imagined in the past have been proven possible. (Who could have guessed that it would be possible to hack and insert a custom program into a game console solely via controller input, without the need for any hardware modification, nor any custom or modified game cartridge? Who would have guessed that the controller input could be used to effectively stream data into the console in real time in this manner?)
The payloads themselves have often been highly entertaining, amusing and interesting, which is not something to forget nor underappreciate. It's not necessarily very easy to create custom payloads that will entertain massive audiences, especially since this requires quite a lot of low-level programming for the console.
It can be safely said that the work done for the GDQ TAS blocks has not only contributed to the event, to the charities, and to the popularity of the tasvideos website, but in fact to the technological knowledge of society. This shouldn't be underestimated nor forgotten.
And, of course, the TAS block would have never become a reality, nor continue to be a reality, without the hard work of the people who are going to the event and presenting it to the public. This requires understanding of the underlying technology, planning, rehearsing and presentation skills. Your work is awesome, dwangoAC, and all the other people responsible. Please do not ever get the impression I'm not appreciative of it.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
Spikestuff wrote:
You cannot stay in a single circle when there's another 2 waiting for you to see them and to reflect on their comments as well.
I said on this thread in bold that I agreed with the negative comments there. I expressed off-forum to you that I felt like this was a bit of an attack but I'll try to be level-headed and assume you have honorable intentions. Here's what you get, doing my best to pick at least a few of the more constructive comments. Warning to Spikestuff: You asked for this.
Before I post these comments I want to reiterate that I don't ignore negative feedback, but I definitely try to look at what's constructive and what's destructive. I stand by my earlier statement I said in bold: I accept responsibility for what parts went wrong especially with commentary, particularly the extremely valid points raised by micro500 who has been in the arena and knows what this is like - he couldn't be more right that two years later we're still struggling with some of the same problems and it's time we "grow up". I've laid out a plan of action and only time will tell if we can successfully correct the repeating issues. But for now, let's get back to your request for viewpoints from the other sources, keeping in mind that this list is truncated because the comments for Mari0 were so toxic that GDQ disabled them on YouTube. Here are a few choice selections of the general sentiment of the less pleased denizens of the internet:
(Warning to others: The following views expressed by YouTube comments and Reddit viewers about TASBot related content and me as a person are here unedited and contain foul language. Do not read further if you are easily offended.)
"Upvoted for TASturbation because it's the perfect term for these segments"
"Considering how it was finished last second it almost seems as if they looked at the 100k goal and figured it wouldn't get reached, then shit themselves a few days before it was due and it became obvious it would be funded."
"I thought it would have been difficult to find a more boring run than FFIV randomizer but they did it"
"The tas segments are always meh"
"My only gripe with the show and scene in general is the staggering amount of autists ( I don’t mean to offend anyone, but you know what I mean and this is the best way for me to explain it) which turn this into such a messy cringe fest."
"That foot shit was fucking cringe"
"No one gives a fuck about ur fucking pie. Shit. U have the worst personality and narcissism. I hate how ur the person who has the tas bot.literally ur talking ruins this whole video but ur cheesy ass personality makes any watching of tas bot videos unbearable and cringy"
"I DONT CARE HOW YOU FEEL... FUCK, JUST TALK ABOUT TASBOT, WHO CARES HOW YOUR NIGHT IS... THIS ISNT A FUCKING VLOG YOU CUNT"
Put yourself in my shoes for a moment and imagine reading that after spending 6 months working on something and you'll have a small sliver of how difficult it can be.
Put yourself in my shoes for a moment and imagine reading that after spending 6 months working on something and you'll have a small sliver of how difficult it can be.
yeah we feel you man, sadly there's always that 1% who are just huge assholes who like to speak too loud. the only solution is simply to ignore these and focus on positive comments, and just not to misread all of our comments : you did incredibly well (as usual) and the block was GOOD; it's just that as usual we're only talking about improvement on a frame level
None of those comments surprise me. There’s a number of reasons I stopped using reddit forever ago, and the cesspool of useless and aggressive comments was one of them. I’ve never used YouTube for comments (except that one time to you dwango).
I didn’t catch TASBlock this year, but I know you and others work hard on it. I can’t tell you to ignore the brash negativity because that’s easier said than done, but what I can tell you to do is just continue doing what you do because there are more people who appreciate your contributions than there are those who want nothing but to comment pure bile.
Moderator, Senior Ambassador, Experienced player
(907)
Joined: 9/14/2008
Posts: 1014
These are randomly selected and only minimally edited for space. Yes, I'm picking comments that also are directed at me as a person along with the entire team behind the various TASBot projects but I ask that you not judge me harshly for needing my own personal palette cleanser as well.
"TASBlock remains one of the highlights of GDQs and you guys keep doing amazing stuff. There's always a couple stumbles for anyone doing anything. It's a bit frustrating to look back to when we slip but don't let that distract from all the good stuff, cause there was a ton of it. You keep being awesome and rest in the certainty that you have indeed been so this far =P"
"that TAS of Aria of Sorrow was crazy. Thank you for sharing this insanity."
MASHBot: "I thought this was great! It may not have been the fastest, but I was in awe the whole way through. There are so many technical challenges for something like this to work."
LoZ on my channel: "Thank you so much for being such a great parent. My own parents told me how I shouldn't talk to my children like that. That I shouldn't explain things that could be "too complicated"... if they had explained many many normal things in life to me I would've been so much more grateful. Let alone you're letting your children enjoy your very same hobby. Thank you so much, this video teared me up."
LoZ on my channel: "I was crying because of how adorable this is. Your love for your kids reminds me of my first gaming experience, a Link to the Past, with my dad. Thank you for sharing this with everyone, I think everybody needs to see wholesome experiences like this these days. And it's great to see great parenting mixed in with optimal gaming. Cheers!"
