Given that for NDS runs currently even with BIOS support you cannot change the clock during a run, would anyone mind if a time based run was done by awkwardly "suboptimal" gameplay and/or standing for 2 hours just to wait for an event that depends on time to occur?
Edit: Game in question is Nanashi no Game 2 where the chests for 100% ending is RTC based, but without the ability to change in game clock you might have to wait for 2 hours.
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Please elaborate. You can set the time when starting a movie, I guess that doesn't help? Also if you just have to wait for 2 hours no matter what, how is that even a speedrun? What game? What goal?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Please elaborate. You can set the time when starting a movie, I guess that doesn't help? Also if you just have to wait for 2 hours no matter what, how is that even a speedrun? What game? What goal?
There's a collectable item in Nanashi no Game Me. They unlock platforming stages, which if you complete all of them, unlocks something special (extra stage + graphic iirc).
The game has 7 stages. In terms of real clock, 3 of the items ONLY appear if the DS clock was at 0:XX, 1:XX and 2:XX during stage 5. A fourth item needs the clock to be at 3:XX to appear on stage 6. XX is any arbitrary minute.
The game itself takes about 1 hour to complete, just like the first version. To unlock stage 7 (which gives a special ending), you need to complete the game twice. Even if it was possible to obtain the 0:00 and 1:00 item in the first playthrough, due to how the 3rd item appears at 2:XX, yet the 4th item appears at 3:XX on the stage right after it, we have the following choices:
1) Save the game, then change the DS clock to 1 hour later, then start again and proceed to stage 6. This is not possible to do right now in Desume (clock change doesn't register)
2) Save the game, then complete most of the unlocked platformers first. Then do literally nothing/mess around for the remaining amount of time until 3:XX is reached, then immediately start stage 6.
In a real time run, 1) would be the choice to do. Since that's not available, would 2) be valid?
Edit: Play "suboptimally" would be to spread the wait time for 1 hour between stage 5 and 6, since there's nothing else I can really do using the current emulator to advance the clock. (even if I finish the current platformers, they take like 1 min max to beat, so that's still 45 minutes of waiting).
Would it be possible to set the starting clock up such that you collect the first items in stage 5 at a time of around 2:59, then proceed to stage 6 on 3:00 and get its item then? Based on how I read this scenario, it sounds like that would be possible.
Don't think so; right now, it's set up to obtain the first 2 items on stage 5 to collect the 0:XX and 1:XX items in the first playthrough. Another hour would have passed on the 2nd playthrough and allow the 2:XX item to be obtainable. Unfortunately, this means 1 hour-ish wait for the 3:XX item between stages 5 and 6.
If the clock was changed to instead allow collecting the 2:XX item and 3:XX item, the earlier 2 items (0:XX, 1:XX) would be unobtainable until 24 hours later.
Joined: 4/17/2010
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If a item appears if you just wait, and then you can quickly complete the game after getting it, it doesn't looks like getting it is a sensible speedrun goal. As for unlocking, are there no codes of any kind? Can they at least be unlocked for a separate, save anchored movie? If additional levels are unlocked using codes, we allow them in Vault. If it's only possible via save carryover, it has to be Moons.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I recently discovered that Windows and Linux TASses don't need to start from power on. DrD2k9 provided a good explanation for why this is, but I do think the rules need to be updated to reflect this. Current rules say that "The movie must begin from console power-on" which is not true for Hourglass and libTAS movies.
On a related note, this is something that will need to be considered when defining how to compare libTAS vs. JPC-rr DOS runs.
Not a judge, but I’m pretty sure that rule is saying a movie cant start from something like a savestate. Starting from “power on” would usually mean when the game actually boots up, which can include the BIOS (if the emulator allows it to play)
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Not a judge, but I’m pretty sure that rule is saying a movie cant start from something like a savestate. Starting from “power on” would usually mean when the game actually boots up, which can include the BIOS (if the emulator allows it to play)
Hmmmm...
If this is the case, then perhaps we need to consider a new way of timing DOS/C64/etc runs for publication when they require longer booting/loading sequences.
It would be nice and better reflect the actual speed achievement of these runs to have just the time from when the game is executed to the final input instead of from power-on w/ boot and loading.
As examples:
While it would take more detailed analysis of the run, C64 games could be timed starting when return is pressed to send the "RUN" command to the CPU.
DOS games could similarly be timed from when enter is pressed to send the executable command to the CPU. This timing method for DOS would solve the issue of timing DOS in libTAS vs. jpc-rr (though it still doesn't solve CPU clock speed discrepancies...but that's another issue altogether and off topic)
This isn't perfect as a good number of C64 games continue to have further loading after the "RUN" command, but it would still be better than current methods for expressing accurate gameplay timing. It would also allow publications of C64 games to include only video from the execution of the program by the "RUN" command onward eliminating long boring loading screens from the published videos.
However
Due to the way times are automatically calculated, however, this all would definitely throw a wrench into the automated submission system. Then again we could always just go with the automated time while the run sits on the workbench and have the publications show the actual game-time. This would unfortunately require more working steps by the publishers.
c-squares points/concerns are legitimate.
We may not need to change anything regarding how submissions or publications are handled. This might be able to be cleared up by a rewording of the rules; perhaps adding something regarding "deterministic vs variable boot/loading sequences" simply for clarification.
This situation is probably best addressed/discussed by feos (as the senior judge) and other site administrative staff.
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Hourglass and libTAS are not emulators, so they don't emulate the hardware. They intercept the game workflow and control it. Since they only work with applications, their movies start when the applications start. It's impossible to include anything else.
JPC-RR and all the rest are emulators, so the movies start as soon as the hardware is turned on along with software we're running on it. There's no easy and obvious way to say "the game launches right here" about any moment in time.
For those curious, no one forbids posting movie time calculated from game startup, but the movie system (and therefore, submission system) have never been designed to account for the difference between bootup time and actual game startup time.
I'll see if the rule wording is outdated.
EDIT:
I think there's no ambiguity in the actual rule talking about starting point in the general sense:
http://tasvideos.org/MovieRules.html#MovieMustPlayTheGameFromTheBeginning
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I think I see where the rules support starting from application start:
That is, the following option must be chosen:
"Record from power-on/start"
It's that "/start" that covers this scenario. Do I have that right?
Where I got confused is that the header says:
The movie must begin from console power-on
I took the "console" to be the Windows or Linux machine.
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Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
When we can TAS machines for Windows or Linux games, we will require starting from power on too.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
has there ever been a case where a movie was accepted that improved the gameplay of the previous publication, but the new submission was done on a less accurate emulator?
like for example if a genesis movie made on bizhawk was obsoleted by a submission that used gens.
also how acceptable would a case like that be? where movies using less accurate emulation (on emulators still accepted) can obsolete those with better emulation?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
There's no rule against less accurate emulator as long as it's accepted. There's preference for users that can afford the better one, but for those who can't, we still allow submissions on less accurate ones. As far as obsoletion is concerned, there's no such restriction either, we just make sure the completion times are compared properly and emulation differences don't interfere.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
If a ghouls and ghosts game does not have a level select code to skip through the 1st cycle, is it required to play through both cycles to fully complete the game?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Past decisions seem to depend on whether any new content is present in the second playthrough. The NES version is exactly the same, just a bit harder. On SNES you fight the true final boss IIRC.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
For this game, there is a final boss after the 2nd cycle.
I just haven’t seen any proof that this version (SGX) has a level code to skip the 1st one.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't
12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!"
Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet
MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish
[Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person
MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol
Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Then just play from the start and beat the final boss.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Hi! I have question need ask how about use a old save file for make new run
My current run: http://tasvideos.org/3707M.html
This guy found new bug can start new game with old file save: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiULZ-z99rY
although I can't understand what he wrote in his video, but I can understand how this bug work, something maybe like this:
- start new game then save to slot 1
- load save game to final battle
- use bug skip battle for run out battle then overwrite save to slot 1
- load slot 1 for start new game with all old stuff having
if this is allow, then I can make new run can saves alot time
Hi! I have question need ask how about use a old save file for make new run
My current run: http://tasvideos.org/3707M.html
This guy found new bug can start new game with old file save: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiULZ-z99rY
although I can't understand what he wrote in his video, but I can understand how this bug work, something maybe like this:
- start new game then save to slot 1
- load save game to final battle
- use bug skip battle for run out battle then overwrite save to slot 1
- load slot 1 for start new game with all old stuff having
if this is allow, then I can make new run can saves alot time
A judge would have the final say, but this seems like there are two options you could take.
1) Do everything you've listed above in one TAS project. Then it would likely be eligible for vault if the resulting run couldn't attain moon tier.
2) Start a new save-anchored TAS project from "- load slot 1 for start new game with all old stuff having" and simply provide a secondary verification movie of how the used save file was generated. This verification movie would not need to be optimal; it just exists to provide proof of no cheating on the actual TAS. However, using this method would require enough positive response to warrant moon tier publication as runs beginning from a save file aren't vault eligible, IIRC.
Option 1 would be a longer total run, but would likely be vault eligible. Option would be a shorter run but likely not be eligible for vault.
Thanks your reply, but are you sure this things still following TAS rules?
This bug happen in verification movie file, the after file just enjoy from the before. Most pepole when watch the run will ask something "wtf, why this happened like as this", lol
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11475
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
As DrD2k9 said, if you just start a movie from a save file, you need a legitimate verification movie and your main run has to be entertaining enough for Moons. If it's not all that entertaining, it will be rejected.
If you want to guarantee that it's published, regardless of feedback, do everything in one movie. And as theorized, it might end up being longer overall than that published movie.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Thanks your reply, but are you sure this things still following TAS rules?
This bug happen in verification movie file, the after file just enjoy from the before. Most pepole when watch the run will ask something "wtf, why this happened like as this", lol
Here's the rule.
If you choose to try the save-anchored route using a verification movie, it's a greater risk of rejection. But due to the glitch opening up another way of playing through a "new" game, a TAS of just the latter run may still be allowed (provided there's a verification movie).
Again, if you do everything in 1 complete TAS, you will have played from boot with a clean SRAM. The question here becomes whether or not the second run is even worthwhile. It may be considered trivial after having already watched through a nearly complete first run (minus beating the final boss) even though only the second run actually beats the game. In my opinion, running the entire game a second time (even if significantly faster than the first run) is likely going to take longer than just finishing off the final boss during the first run through.
If the save-anchored glitched save can be created in a verification run, the staff may allow a TAS just the 2nd run through. This would result in the fastest single completion of the game. I repeat, this method would likely require moon tier response from the community to get accepted/published.
EDIT: oops. Was in the midst of typing this when feos responded.
For the last few weeks I've been struggling with Harvest Moon's (SNES) Fishing RNG.
The goal of the RNG is pretty simple: Get a grand total of 9 fish into the shipping bin by the end of Day 4, while collecting all the Power Berries. By doing things this way we cut out nearly 4,800-5,600 frames from the TAS by not having to make an extra trip into the mountians to collect either the Chicken/ Stump power berries during the night, or put off collecting the water sprite power berry until after we hit our Gold totals needed for cash crops. The RNG is important here as we have to manage it in a specific way to preserve our daylight timer in order to get all 9 fish to the bin, while still getting everything else done. These are the only scheduled fishing trips my routing requires. Once fishing is done, we never do it again. So long as we spend less than 4,800 frames directly manipulating the fishing RNG we are considered to have saved frames or come out frame neutral.
The fastest result I've been able to achieve spends has roughly 620-680 frames that can be directly attributed to getting fishing RNG seeds to line up:
1) If my frame counts are correct there is another potential 600 frame reduction thats possible until ideal / optimal conditions. Theoretically, there are up to 800 frames that could be squeezed out of it with "God Mode" RNG manipulations.
2) My fastest "Fishing" solution of 9 fish and all four power berries uses a sub-optimal startup. There is a 16 frame minor pathing mistake, and two swag name entries, roughly 15-20 frames each over optimal. So roughly 35-50 frames could be shaved at startup. An optimal 1st day pathing causing some bad fishing seeds starting with the second fishing trip on Day 2. To get back to the good rhythm I know is there I would need to add in a 50-60 frame pause before the end of day 1 if I "Optimized" the visual appearance of Day 1, by correcting the 16 frame pathing issues and only using "A" as the names for jack and the dog, (As opposed to TasB and DwAC recpectively).
In short I've allready spent nearly 100 hours trying to brute force faster fishing solutions. Of the 5 total solutions I've developed (All 3 days of fishing) the best solution I have is 1,400 frames faster, but has a 500 frame gap that could be trimmed out. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure at this point to get past that gap would mean exploring other entire fishing sequences. Meaning the entirity of all 9 fishing attempt would have to be re-explored, and each fishing attempt takes 30 minutes to an hour to optimize, and gets worse if we have to manipulate earlier attempts / timings to get a better seed.
My question is - At what point can RNG intensive sections of a game be considered "Good Enough"? Do I need to use my "Optimized" day 1 solution as opposed to my Non-Optimized "Swag" start, even though the SWAG start gives me a better RNG sequence on day 2?
Without help from someone in terms of RAM watch or RNG reverse engineering, spending another 100 hours trying to brute force a solution that /Might/ be faster than what I have doesn't sound like an effective use of my time considering I have another 1.5-2.0 hours of gameplay I need to do frame inputs on.
thanks sir feos and DrD2k9. I'm alway confuse with rules
I think should choose do all in one movie. Not sure it'll have entertaiment watch because must watch the game run 2nd times with nearly same ways, but it's safe with rules
