Attributes

  • Collects all items
  • Aims for lowest real time / frame count
  • Forgoes major game breaking glitches
  • Forgoes out of bounds
  • Forgoes memory corruption
  • Abuses minor glitches and exploits
  • Takes damage to save time
  • Manipulates luck

Terminology

  • Energy Tank = E-Tank
  • Super Missile = Super
  • X-Ray Scope = X-Ray
  • Speed Booster = Speed
  • Charge Beam = Charge
  • Plasma Beam = Plasma
  • Mother Brain = MB
  • Continuous Wall Jump = CWJ

Tools Used

Overview

The ultimate TAS of the 2D realm has finally crossed the finish line, incinerating Cpadolf's previous iteration into ashes. The total improvement is 23360 frames, or approximately 6 minutes and 28 seconds in real time, and 3 minutes and 22 seconds in game time. Of those 23360 frames, 4118 were from lag reduction.
With an extremely unconventional route, even more new techniques than before, tons of updated room strategies, and a healthy amount of lag reduction, this TAS aims to outdo my previous works in terms of optimization and entertainment.
A secondary encode is being provided with fixed graphics, thanks to the creation of a LUA script for Bizhawk by PJBoy that alters the VRAM. All Super Metroid TASes created with Bizhawk and Lsnes are compatible with each other.
More specifically, this LUA script automatically:
  • Centers misaligned doors (to prevent permanent graphical issues)
  • Allows graphics to scroll & update while using X-Ray
  • Prevents graphical errors that would occur if Samus moved faster than 16px per frame
  • Follows Samus while she is off-screen (doesn't work yet, but will soon)
Fortunately, VRAM doesn't impact a Super Metroid TAS's ability to sync.

Route Outline

Perhaps only somewhat surprising in the context of 100%, Kraid -> Ridley -> Phantoon -> Draygon was determined to be optimal, with a 'one-trip Norfair' being possible through the assistance of various X-Ray exploits, and Phantoon being handled before Draygon to acquire Gravity Suit, of course.
The route itself was produced in cooperation with EternisedDragon, and as the saying goes, "well begun is half done".
Thanks to moonfall, almost all of the items from Green/Pink Brinstar can be acquired in one pass - the one unfortunate exception being the E-Tank behind Charge (commonly referred to as the "water tank") as it's shielded by many layers of Speed blocks.
All other areas, such as Kraid's Lair, Norfair, Wrecked Ship, and Maridia are completed in one visit, with a brand-new exploit performed to access Maridia immediately after reentry into Red Brinstar.
After Maridia, the aforementioned water tank is collected before sweeping the rest of (blue) Brinstar and Crateria. MB is then promptly dethroned in a lag-free duel to the death.

New Techniques

Grapple Speedkeep

Normally, all dash (run speed) is lost whenever Grapple makes contact with a Grapple block or Grapple-able enemy. However, if you do so on the same frame when the knockback period ends, all dash will be maintained.
With careful maneuvering, it's also possible to land and continue forward movement with this prior dash maintained. (see Post Crocomire Farming Room)

Grapple Supersink

If Samus releases from a grapple swing in a manner that the starting vertical speed exceeds 6 pixels per frame, it becomes uncapped and is allowed to increase forever, similar to moonfall.
If this specific release is combined with a pixel-perfect soft unmorph ("slopekiller"), this speed can be stored while in a crouch pose. From there, turning with either or both angle buttons held will increase the speed further, eventually allowing Samus to sink through objects (16+ speed required). (see Bowling Alley & Aqueduct first visit)

Unused Doors

There are a few rooms in the game which contain unused doors / areas within their boundaries. The Plasma beach is one such area, where a door - which has the same ID as the bottom right door of that room - exists behind the door leading to the Plasma area, effectively serving as a shortcut.

Pausing to release inputs

When the game pauses, it considers all inputs to be released, making it possible to, for example, morph without needing to wait a frame before being able to press down a second time to morph. This was crucial in being able to properly soft morph during the Bowling Grapple supersink. (That's why there's a seemingly unnecessary pause there, but it was definitely necessary!)

Midair-stuck Moonfall

Certain conditions can make Samus seemingly stuck in midair, in one of her midair poses. One method for this is to freeze two enemies with the correct distance between each other, and then jump between them. Now, what happens if you moonfall between those two enemies? Well, it allows a massive amount of vertical speed to be built up without needing any falling distance beneath you.
This was originally going to be applied as part of the means to access Maridia through Red Brinstar, but a faster strategy was found, thus limiting application of this technique to the Green Pirates Shaft before Tourian, using both of the Beetoms.

Phantoon Double Super

If Phantoon is struck with a Super on the same frame he initiates movement after the first Missile volley, he won't enrage.
This trick saved nearly a second compared to the typical single Super fight - albeit still slower than an X-Plasma fight, but this obviously wasn't an option in this run.

Soft Crumbling

Performing a soft unmorph atop a crumble block (to maintain vertical speed) and then performing a frame-perfect morph when the block vanishes can save time in very specific situations. (see West Sand Hole & Blue Brinstar E-Tank Room)

Snailtool

Yards (snails) can consume the same blocks of sand that Shaktool plows through, so a Yard can be directed to tear through part of the sand before Shaktool is able to reach it, allowing a quicker escape.

Continuous CWJs

Normally, all dash is lost as soon as the jump button is released, but if Screw Attack or Space Jump are active, it's possible to perform multiple CWJs in a row without losing dash.

Sand moonturns

By initiating a moonfall right before entering a room filled with sand, Samus will sink at about double the speed during turnaround animations, which makes this much faster than the traditional morph-unmorph-ing.
And finally, all techniques and glitches applied in the Any% TAS from 2018 were also applied in this project. You can read more about those on the submission page of that run.

Improvement Breakdown

Yes, very much improved...
...placeholder

Special Thanks

  • EternisedDragon a.k.a. Aran;Jaeger for helping create this route and for reviewing my progress
  • Cakemaphoneige a.k.a. Cake5 for finding a 3 frame improvement to MB's head manipulation during the stand-up glitch
  • PJBoy for his amazing LUA script
  • Dan for various disassemblies
  • Cpadolf's previous TAS for comparison material
  • Overfiend for being my editor

feos: This run as it is is somewhat easy to judge, it's just an improvement to the existing full completion branch, coming from better routing, optimization, and new tricks. I watched them side by side to confirm this.
However, the thread proves that we're having quite some questions to be answered about Super Metroid TASing and branching in general. Those questions started appearing a few years ago, and since there was no answer that'd satisfy the whole community and get its approval, I'm going to generate it now.

Out of bounds

I watched all the recent "game end glitch" movies using this script that I found on google and tweaked a little bit. Here's what it looks like.
From reading some resources I can conclude that Super Metroid's out-of-bounds area is special if we compare this game to, say, Mega Man, which was brought in the thread a few times. In MM the map is continuous, even if only on the index level, so by leaving one room, you enter another, even if they are not meant to be near each other level design wise. In Super Metroid, a room is what is currently loaded into memory, and leaving its layout bounds brings you nowhere else than garbage area. What this garbage area will be is determined by what layout was previously loaded, and whether or not the current layout loops in memory. So you either enter a copy of the current room, or utter garbage area with garbage blocks, which in turn have a variety of garbage properties, including calling non-existent routines. What routine a block calls upon touching can be manipulated to trigger arbitrary code execution, this is what's happening in the most recent "game end glitch" branches.
Just like with the current Super Metroid trunk (or labelless branch, or no-major-glitches category), some people feel disappointed by what looks like being out of bounds in this submission. Technically the room bounds are never escaped in either movie. What looks like OOB is just scrolling glitches where the camera isn't able to follow the character's movement due to bugs. As a result, it's impossible to know where the character is actually going during such segments, and that damages entertainment.
It's worth mentioning that it would technically be allowed to visit out-of-bounds areas in all SM branches as long as that's not used to fill completion counter via memory corruption and ACE techniques. It just seems to be the most entertaining solution for the NMG branch to avoid OOB along with ACE and memory corruption. Since that branch is unvaultable, we want it to be as entertaining as possible, and the current rule set used in it makes it reasonably entertaining. For full completion, it doesn't even have to be entertaining at all to be published, but that could downgrade the movie to Vault, and the audience doesn't want that. So it's a common agreement that SM 100% should avoid all the techniques SM NMG avoids, while also collecting all items as implied.

Entertainment

Despite of having quite some complaints in the discussion thread for [3653] SNES Super Metroid by Sniq in 35:58.31, that movie's rating is overwhelmingly high. I don't have an explanation for that other than people not caring about ratings once they have expressed their position in the thread. Despite of that rating, all the same complaints are now back and vocal in this submission's discussion.
I could of course rely on the NMG branch ratings and ignore the complaints, just accepting this branch to Stars the same way that other movie was accepted. But firstly, I'd prefer to make sure the audience generally doesn't mind starring this run; secondly, there should be some agreement on how to manage glitch avoidance within SM branches; and thirdly, I can expect some more negative ratings this time, since this subject is seemingly getting more annoying to some viewers.
As I said, I watched this movie side-by-side with cpadolf's work. I tried to match all the similar areas and watch them so that the changes are the most apparent to me. After having read the thread, I expected the second half of the movie to be a complete mess where you can see neither Samus nor the level layout at all. And this expectation was completely false. Aside from very few occasions, it was clear or at least easily deducible where Samus has navigated even during X-Ray dashes. What I didn't like at all though was segments where you can't possibly understand where Samus is at the moment. This is closely tied with scrolling glitches, and it does indeed visually look like out-of-bounds navigation.

No X glitch

The situation around the previous two chapters is that people are confusing major glitches with major skip glitches. Whenever something looks like heavy corruption, it's considered a major glitch, even though we only count glitches as major skip ones if they skip major parts of the movie.
But even though we mostly separate runs with and without major skip glitches, we also can separate runs with and without heavy glitches just fine. Time difference doesn't have to be all that big, but the way gameplay looks without such a glitch is significantly different. Avoiding this glitch also results in a more human-like (although still super-human) look: the action becomes more comprehensible, and as a result, it's far easier to relate to and enjoy. Note how glitch avoidance is called out in the "no X glitch" manner: this is because it avoids glitches that are common among other branches of that game.
Okay so how do we apply this to Super Metroid branches?
It's been said a number of times that having alternative branches for each of the current ones, separated by glitch usage, doesn't make too much sense because of huge content overlap between all the potential resulting branches. For games that have two or three branches, having this difference is mostly fine. It branches either as "major skip glitch" / "no major skip glitch" / "no heavy glitches at all", or as "heavy glitches" / "no heavy glitches". But Super Metroid always has at least 4 branches published together, so any new branch is going to resemble others, and that's especially true if there are 4 fundamental, primary routes, and on top of that there are versions of them without heavy glitches. Adding a "no heavy glitches" alternative to any of the current branches is unfeasible.
Then, banning heavy glitches right in NMG or 100% makes those branches too arbitrary. We don't have enough support in the community for such a step. In addition to that, comparing speed improvements would become a hell, because the line tends to be getting thiner and thiner between visually appealing and distracting heavy glitches, all of which save time, but none of which results in a major skip. So it won't be possible to properly account for this limitation in obsoletion chains.
There's also a point to be made about really insignificant time difference in either scenario.
Anyway, camhack encodes are possible that fix the scrolling glitches. Having low-glitch branches that look exactly like alternative encodes of high-glitch branches is silly.
So as I said in this submission's thread, one's best bet is avoiding all the "bad looking" glitches in a fundamentally unvaultable branch. To be specific, the only current unvaultable branch that would suit for this limitation seems to be "low%".

Attempt to define this esoteric goal

It's worth noting that the ammo underflow glitch that was used in the previous NMG branch, can count as memory corruption. You partially change the logic controlling some address, and what would properly work in proper situation A and in proper situation B, doesn't work right in improper A-B hybrid. resulting on writing to unintended logical address those 2 situations share. But even then, whether we want to define this strictly as memory corruption or not is not that clear: all the X-Ray glitches used in this run and in NMG could arguably fit the same definition, yet they aren't avoided alongside other memory corruption techniques.
Regardless, the undeflow glitch is banned in low%, and I fully agree with this decision, because it avoids route and execution trivialization, resulting in a more entertaining movie. But how do we account for other recently applied techniques that damage entertainment?
In addition to banning the underflow glitch, I suggest banning all the scrolling glitches in the low% category. Sure, in its current form it probably doesn't have them anyway. But after all, it's the only category among the current ones where this approach is still possible (and desired).

Conclusion

Every decision made in this movie makes the most sense, and represents the most solid of the available options. Any tweak theorized by the audience would make it worse, either in terms of entertainment (the majority still likes this run), or in terms of definition solidity.
Even though this movie looks stylistically identical to the NMG branch that is starred and has great ratings, I'd like to see this run's ratings. After all, this movie inherits all the problematic aspects of [3653] SNES Super Metroid by Sniq in 35:58.31. Then there's arguably less difference between this and the current NMG than there was between the previous 100% and previous NMGs. As a result, I'd prefer having a Star related discussion separated, and well after this run gets published and gains enough post-publication feedback.
Otherwise, accepting to obsolete [2436] SNES Super Metroid "100%" by Cpadolf in 1:08:15.74 while going to Moons for now.
Spikestuff: PUB-LISH-ING


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Wow. You guys are so close to achieve the sub hour mark... Hopefully you'll be able to accomplish that goal one day.
Here, my YouTube channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/dekutony
Joined: 5/23/2014
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EZGames69 wrote:
Habreno wrote:
No vote. Impressive from a technical perspective, but the constant graphical glitching is even worse than in Any% (where I already made my opinion clear) and heavily detracts from what would be a great run otherwise.
Uhh, you DO realize there is a graphic fix encode that DOESNT show the vomit that you dislike right?
No, I would have never guessed that the second encode that says "fixed graphics" has fixed graphics. /s I watched that version to actually understand what's going on, since the normal version isn't watchable. I was being very simple since I'd already made my opinion of this technique clear in Any% where it was first introduced, and you and I both know this is likely going to Stars regardless because the majority of people on this site just enjoy seeing games broken more and more (unless it's from a version change, god forbid) so the people who don't actually enjoy it are going to get shut down regardless. But feedback is feedback and if I'd just silently voted "No" then someone would have inevitably asked "why the no vote/who's the silent no voter". I have no qualms tying my online name to my opinion, so I man up and make it clear when I take an opinion that is not the "norm". I don't want to go down that path of conversation again regarding superjumping (it was annoying the first time), and out of respect for Sniq (and any other potential authors) on an excellent technical achievement I won't bring it up either even if you want me to. This is an excellent TAS. It's just not an entertaining one to me.
EZGames69
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Habreno wrote:
you and I both know this is likely going to Stars regardless because the majority of people on this site just enjoy seeing games broken more and more (unless it's from a version change, god forbid) so the people who don't actually enjoy it are going to get shut down regardless.
No, you’re being shut down for complaining about something in this movie that makes it unwatchable, despite the fact that a separate encode was made with the soul purpose of Combating this issue. This has nothing to do with me saying you shouldn’t dislike the movie, but that your criticism is just unjustified. This is no different to if you were to complain about how in sonic tases you cant see sonic because he’s so far off screen, yet camhacks exist to combat that issue.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 5/23/2014
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EZGames69 wrote:
Habreno wrote:
you and I both know this is likely going to Stars regardless because the majority of people on this site just enjoy seeing games broken more and more (unless it's from a version change, god forbid) so the people who don't actually enjoy it are going to get shut down regardless.
No, you’re being shut down for complaining about something in this movie that makes it unwatchable, despite the fact that a separate encode was made with the soul purpose of Combating this issue. This has nothing to do with me saying you shouldn’t dislike the movie, but that your criticism is just unjustified. This is no different to if you were to complain about how in sonic tases you cant see sonic because he’s so far off screen, yet camhacks exist to combat that issue.
To quote from the Any% thread:
Memory wrote:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
You are correct I just want someone that Votes No to give a reason. It is perfectly fine to Vote No everyone has an opinion. I just feel like its someone who just hates Super Metroid and didn't even watch this TAS.
If they HAD to give an opinion why would the poll be anonymous to begin with. Also again there are very valid reasons to not like this specific Super Metroid TAS. For example they may be fans of less glitchy prior TASes.
And just to remind you, that thread had seven pages (on my posts/page count, IDK about yours) and multiple people expressing the same viewpoint. You can call me out all you want but my opinion is not alone here.
EZGames69
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Just because you’re not alone with your opinion doesn’t make it any more justified
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Joined: 5/23/2014
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EZGames69 wrote:
Just because you’re not alone with your opinion doesn’t make it any more justified
Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's any less justified.
Alyosha
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Seems like a pretty justifiable criticism to me. The first encode is what an actual snes would output, why should someone base their opinion on what not-a-snes would output? You wouldn’t judge someone’s singing talent based on a digitally ‘fixed’ version of their singing. But there are lots of aspects of the movie that someone may find entertaining , and perhaps the ‘fixed’ encode just removes the distracting parts, but the run itself is the first one, not the ‘fixed’ one.
creaothceann
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EZGames69 wrote:
This is no different to if you were to complain about how in sonic tases you cant see sonic because he’s so far off screen, yet camhacks exist to combat that issue.
And yet it wouldn't be wise to show this and similar movies at SGDQ.
Spikestuff
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All I know is that I'll be publishing this, much like I've done in the past for SM. Sniq just get in contact with me about when and what is required for the fixed graphics. Yes Vote.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
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Yes vote. I really liked the run and it's a shame we can't see what happens in some ocasions where the camera doesn't follow Samus. As there is the fixed graphics it would be cool to have some kind of editing that would show what happens offscreen. Given that the idea of the fixed graphics scrip is to get rid of the mess and help to understand better what's going on I don't think it would be a problem to even have some kind of video editing to show what's going on during the offscreen moments if the script can't show it for itself.
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well that's a technical behemoth we got there, impressive run, incredible routing and .. x-rays everywhere. i voted yes on entertainement and improvement values BUT the xray strats are very gray area, and while you technically stay inbounds of the MAP; you don't stay inbounds of the rooms themselves; maybe adding "of the map" on the "Forgoes out of bounds" would apease a bit the dilema
EZGames69
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creaothceann wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
This is no different to if you were to complain about how in sonic tases you cant see sonic because he’s so far off screen, yet camhacks exist to combat that issue.
And yet it wouldn't be wise to show this and similar movies at SGDQ.
They could barely get the game end glitch to work on console, I highly doubt this one would even work.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Memory
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Habreno wrote:
To quote from the Any% thread:
Memory wrote:
lxx4xNx6xxl wrote:
You are correct I just want someone that Votes No to give a reason. It is perfectly fine to Vote No everyone has an opinion. I just feel like its someone who just hates Super Metroid and didn't even watch this TAS.
If they HAD to give an opinion why would the poll be anonymous to begin with. Also again there are very valid reasons to not like this specific Super Metroid TAS. For example they may be fans of less glitchy prior TASes.
And just to remind you, that thread had seven pages (on my posts/page count, IDK about yours) and multiple people expressing the same viewpoint. You can call me out all you want but my opinion is not alone here.
To be fair, in that quote I was actually referring to Superjumps etc. The glitched graphics are handled by the secondary encode well enough. The whole point of the secondary encode is to help people to be entertained by the movie that might otherwise be distracted by the glitched graphics.
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
EZGames69
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Alyosha wrote:
You wouldn’t judge someone’s singing talent based on a digitally ‘fixed’ version of their singing
Not a good comparison. It’s more like being a good singer but the microphone you’re using has a loud static noise to it, and you judge the singing based on that.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Aran_Jaeger
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I. On the topic of ''glitchyness'' & graphical disruption in the context of entertainment: (1): [quote moozooh] abusing the X-Ray results in glitches that are for most intents and purposes "major" and "game-breaking", but just a notch short of crossing the hard definition line, weaseling into the legacy categories basically on a technicality [/quote] (2): [quote moozooh] and it [Superjumps] also breaks graphics in a way that badly interferes with perception and compounds over time [/quote] (3): [quote moozooh from the Any% TAS thread] Note that while the letter of the definition listed very particular types of abuse, its spirit has been to keep egregious abuse out of the category. Bigger and badder glitches are being found and abused while the accepted definition has remained the same. And so while this run indeed doesn't violate the accepted definition, it definitely contains glitches I consider major and would like to keep out of the category. Superjumps in particular are plain awful, and X-Ray tricks, while not necessarily harmful to entertainment, leave a bad taste (I mean, what it does to boss fights is just... boring). Thus, while I am glad that this run exists, I would not like it to replace the current one. Underflow is major enough in my book, but this takes it further imo. Even the fixed graphics version is too much for comfort, and it's not even the one to base one's decisions off of. [/quote] (4): [quote moozooh] but the overall experience is irrevocably marred by glitches evidently too powerful for a legacy category. [/quote] (5): [quote moozooh] If I go by the unadulterated emulator output, it's not as entertaining as cpadolf's, sadly. It's more entertaining in multiple places, but the overall experience is irrevocably marred by glitches evidently too powerful for a legacy category. [/quote] [quote Habreno] I was being very simple since I'd already made my opinion of this technique clear in Any% where it was first introduced, and you and I both know this is likely going to Stars regardless because the majority of people on this site just enjoy seeing games broken more and more (unless it's from a version change, god forbid) so the people who don't actually enjoy it are going to get shut down regardless. [/quote] [quote Habreno] EZGames69 wrote: Just because you’re not alone with your opinion doesn’t make it any more justified Just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean it's any less justified. [/quote] [quote Habreno] To quote from the Any% thread: Memory wrote: lxx4xNx6xxl wrote: You are correct I just want someone that Votes No to give a reason. It is perfectly fine to Vote No everyone has an opinion. I just feel like its someone who just hates Super Metroid and didn't even watch this TAS. If they HAD to give an opinion why would the poll be anonymous to begin with. Also again there are very valid reasons to not like this specific Super Metroid TAS. For example they may be fans of less glitchy prior TASes. And just to remind you, that thread had seven pages (on my posts/page count, IDK about yours) and multiple people expressing the same viewpoint. You can call me out all you want but my opinion is not alone here. [/quote] Back then in the Any% TAS submission thread I already said I would at some point come back to it and give a response, and I kept this issue in mind over a while, and it is about time now, aswell as it is a more fitting point in time currently than just via necro-posting, so now I'll deal with all of the above quotes at once (and if one wants, one can also lump in similar statements from the Any% TAS submission thread, which I will not list in here, however): On the Starman Guidelines page ( http://tasvideos.org/StarmanGuidelines.html ), under the therein so-called Qualities of starred movies section, regarding the topic of entertainment listed in there, one can find the following 2 factors specifically for entertainment, no less nor else mentioned: [quote Starman Guidelines] * Starred movies should above all else have very high entertainment value that can be seen from these factors: [...] ° Good game choice, featuring intense action, fast pace, reasonable quality for the platform. ° Amount of glitches involved, and whether they merely break the game, or change the game into something never before seen. [/quote] Hence my logical take from this is: If suggestions from this page meant for starred movies display any guidelines on how a movie preferably should be like, and if one strives to abide by this for decisions made for a TAS, then as long as these 2 listed factors do not or do estimatedly not sufficiently much contradict other factors listed in there, which expliclty would be [quote Starman Guidelines] ° High entertainment ratings from many people, with little to no negative entertainment ratings. ° Solid movement style throughout the run, that can be called god-like from a viewer's perspective. Good artistic choices, doing many things at once, without ruining the pace. [/quote] (aswell as potentially further unmentioned factors), the act of choosing to incorporate Superjumps as extension of the set of glitches meant for turning the game into something never before see, aswell as for the purpose of enhancing the fast pace is under the above assumption of lack of intrinsic contradiction to be seen as strictly positive bonus on the side of factors relevant for entertainment of a movie, provided one goes by these and only these guidelines for this aspect. Furthermore, alongside the entertainment aspect, the technical aspect, and the aspect of looking too impossible to be real, one can also find the following point in the section Qualities of starred movies (which, mind you, is also marked as bold and as consequence makes it seem to be at least on a comparable level of importance as the previously mentioned aspects): [quote Starman Guidelines] Starred movies should be highly innovative and do things most players would not expect, nor even considered [/quote]. And regarding this, it was and is our viewpoint that the introduction of Superjumps and other (frequently X-Ray related) exploits would greatly benefit towards the innovativity aswell as unexpectedness of various contents of the 100% movie, and at very least more so than any alternative in which some or all of these exploits would have been foregone, i.e. we thought the movie then would contain more expected and considered/anticipated choices for room traversal & routes and would contain less innovative material. For example without G-mode, one would have had (at least up to current knowledge) to enter Lower Norfair at the usual entrance and the route would almost certainly lead out of Lower Norfair at its usual exit, and Maridia would have had to be entered from a more common access point, too; and a significant amount of room movement likely would have been much closer to long known approaches for these rooms from past movies. Therefore I'm highly confident in our choice in this matter having been the most conform to the above guidelines among the known options we had, and I must say I would be surprised if the general TASing audience would have a contrary view on this matter. Facit: This circumstance is either rather to be seen as "user error'' than as TAS decision error, or if anything, those that complain about it should talk to TASVideos' staff about the guidelines rather than arguing over 1 specific TAS case in which those guidelines' consequences are apparent and in use! - - - Specified, individualized responses: (1): TASVideos goes by its definitions from the Movie Class Guidelines ( http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html ) for the categorization of TASes, so if what you are saying, moozooh, is meant to say the TAS is close to not satisfying some of the definitions' criteria anymore, then I could imagine you might be thinking of some more or less slight variations of some of these definitions. One could try to think up variations e.g. of the heavy glitch abuse or rather the major skip glitch definition to obtain definition cases where Superjumps would not fulfill their criteria anymore, but I'm inclined to think that if one then would blame the Superjumps being so close to this borderline (of barely satisfying the conditions), then surely for many other games one would find parallel exploits that alongside Superjumps would also have to be forced to be in a situation where they don't anymore or barely satisfy the conditions for not counting as major skip glitch (with slightly changed definition). (2): Yes, Superjumps contribute to graphical disruption, but the major part of the problem stems from doors being entered before the screen could catch up, which (as entertainment trade-off) could have been done in a way to let the screen adapt if one chose to do so, but since there was the option to make a version with qualitatively almost entirely fixed graphics (with door tubes being an exception), it appeared to be the better choice in the end, and frame optimization beats entertainment in priority anyway, as obsoletion chains in general clearly show, with the only exception to the rule being when an author can convincingly claim to have known about a frame-improvement and chose otherwise, so doing it this way is safer. (3),(4): I'm not sure why you are repeatedly calling the SM 100% branch a ''legacy category'', moozooh, when it according to the Movie Class Guidelines ( http://tasvideos.org/MovieClassGuidelines.html ) is just a normal and frequently occuring real-time optimized 100% completion category movie with an attributed set of so-called time-saving techniques usage/avoidance consisting of heavy luck manipulation, heavy glitch abuse, takes damage to save time, and foregoes major skip glitch, turning this movie into a that way classified movie according to TASVideos' definitions; instead of e.g. being chosen to be the same except substituting the attributed heavy glitch abuse with foregoes time-saving glitches, and if you would like to see an optimized real-time optimized 100% completion category movie with heavy luck manipulation, foregoes time-saving glitches, takes damage to save time, and foregoes major skip glitch attributed to it, then I don't know if or when such a movie might be made, nor to what extent the foregoing of certain glitches would be applied in it, but I'd estimate that a future in which one would go this path, there likely would a lot of debating occur when TASes start beating each other by loosening up the restrictions that correspond to the foregoing of time-saving glitches, and might even end up running back to the current situation eventually at which we are now. Regarding the major skip glitch definition, [quote Movie Class Guidelines] Most of the time more than half of the game is skipped, compared to the fastest movie that avoids this technique. [/quote] , according to Sniq, without the Superjumps, the TAS would finish at a time around 1:04 or 1:05, but would still beat the previous 100% TAS. Most of the time means at least half of the time and at most at all times, and it refers to either the new movie or to the previous movie that it is compared to. And it makes little sense to measure the amount of time that a new TAS spends in sections that it skips due to the nature of a skip spending little to no time in those sections, whereas measuring in the previous TAS how much time it spends in skipped sections does make more sense. So if one qualifies superjumping through a room as ''skipping part, or let's say even all of the game (for the section affected by a Superjump)'', then in this context, one is meant to take a current fastest movie and check for all time periods in there that correspond to (with Superjumps) skipped sections in the new TAS and then add up those time periods from the previous TAS and compare this accumulated time that corresponds to skipped sections with the previous TAS's total time to see if it is at least 1/2 of it, is how I understand this definition. Now, half of Cpadolf's TAS in 1:08:15.74 would be about 34:07 which according to Sniq's estimate on time saved due to Superjumps (of which there are in total 23 in use, by the way) would be a large multiple of about 8.5 to 11 times the actual amount of time (namely 3 to 4 minutes, going by 1:08 - 1:05 = 3 min, and 1:08 - 1:04 = 4 min) that is skipped from the previous TAS (since 8.5*4=34, and 11*3=33). So maybe it is just the fascination coming with the Superjumps, aswell to parts the difficulty of estimating how much of a difference they actually make together, that is the source of the resulting big discrepancy between the perceived influence and the actual influence, and I doubt a further 100% TAS using Superjumps could apply them in about 10 times larger magnitude of effect to get closer to this borderline set by the definition of major skip glitch. (5): Regarding this, it made me wonder/curious what in particular the "Did you find this movie entertaining?" question refers to/means, and since I don't think there's further specification on this on any page on TASVideos, I'd want to ask if this question is meant as ° ''overall/summed up entertainment'' (alongside the stance described by "Did you find this movie entertaining overall/on average?"), or as ° ''there exist entertaining parts in this TAS, but this might not apply to all of it'' (as in ''Did you find this movie entertaining in parts of it?")? Which of the 2 is it (or maybe it is meant in a third, other way)? Considering moozooh's statement, if it were the 2nd case, then that'd be a ''yes'' from him, and in an overall sense, as he stated, a ''meh''. So I assume the question might be meant in the sense of the 1st case, going by conformity with moozooh's choice. Regarding what seems to be something that worries moozooh, namely the TAS being further away from what an RTA run looks like, I think that is part of what TASes on TASVideos should even be like and what one should strive for, according to the guidelines for starred movies on the Stars page ( http://tasvideos.org/Stars.html ): [quote Stars] Starred movies are the premium/popular/unique movies on this site, of incredibly high quality and entertainment value.[/quote] [quote Stars]Aims to fulfill the site's goal of exposing as many people as possible to Tool-assisted Speedrun/Superplay movies as an art form. [/quote] [quote Stars] Shining example of entertaining the audience, being impressive, showing a mastery of TAS techniques, using unexpected/seemingly impossible ideas, expertise of the game. Game choice must be one that allows for a variety of TAS techniques, strategies, and ideas. In other words, it must be difficult to make an optimized TAS. [/quote] Especially since moozooh was a Starman himself (to my knowledge), he should be well aware of these factors (and maybe shouldn't cling as much to nostalgic times and ways in which the game was TASed before). - - - II. On the topic of optimization: [quote moozooh] the run was submitted with a relatively large known improvement at MB2 that harkens back to the pre-TAStudio era [/quote] From the Low% submission text: [quote Submission #5291] Tourian * Further PB lag reduction in Metroid rooms and improving their death positions while still receiving the appropriate drops. * Further lag reduction of all phases of MB? * Up to 75-77 frames by reducing MB2 rainbow beam timer as much as possible. ° Manipulation for this would have to begin at some point before redbeam phase. [/quote] For the Low% TAS submission ( http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18579&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=75 ), moozooh didn't complain at all about MB2. So it is somewhat surprising and out of the blue that with about 17 remaining frames that might or might not be possible to be reduced entirely (compared to the 75-77 in Low%) now make him decide this way (even though the Low% TAS was also already part of the "Tastudio era" and was made that way, except with less chances of finding someone to deeply look into MB2's behavior back then), which seems somewhat inconsistent, but maybe back then for the Low% TAS with it cutting 1% off, it was more clear and in a sovereign position compared to the previous 2 SM Low% TASes than how the situation is now with 100% and Cpadolf's work with which the new 100% TAS is compared. Edit: Additionally, according to Sniq, Cpadolf's MB2 fight was/is improvable by about 30 to 40 frames and is aswell from the ''Tastudio era'', but Cpadolf chose to not use an input editor while TASing with Bizhawk, while lsnes existed since 2011 with input editor by that time already, and moozooh didn't complain about it at that time, but on the other hand side, the improvability wasn't mentioned in the submission text or known either at the point. - - - III. Sidenotes: [quote moozooh] superjumping past the obstacles or traversing them offscreen makes me feel cheated out of tasting TASVideos's finest wine. [/quote] I have a hunch that you might be criticizing Superjumps too much possibly for their perceived simplicity in thinking they trivialize rooms too much, I think, and if that is part of the reason for your feeling cheated, then maybe Sniq or I should elaborate on the various hard to notice details in which the optimization of Superjumps themselves isn't an easy task at all. Also, horizontal X-Ray-Sparks are not Superjumps either (they don't have the speed bonus and are just normal sparks except of the spark crash animation taken out), so the amount of Superjumps isn't quite as overly high. Other than that, for the record, from 00:00 to 19:36 into the TAS, there is no broken graphics, and from 19:36 on to the end at 1:01:47 of the TAS broken graphics occur, so the relative amount is bit more than 2/3 of the total TAS time. Considering that moozooh stated to have voted with a ''meh'', I'd like to point out that (as I have elaborated elsewhere in the past) under the assumption that the TAS will be accepted, this choice is worse in effect than taking the 4th, invisible option of not voting at all (independently of giving feedback on the TAS via posts, anyway). [quote moozooh] but there's no arguing it [G-Mode] makes the routing far more convenient. [/quote] Well, the process of routing 100% initially got harder due to its existence, since there being more options to be considered, especially with the Red Brinstar gate skip versus going down Red Tower and then up through the gGlasstube instead, and if one couldn't enter Lower Norfair from both sides, then the routing options for that would have been more restrictive, but yes, once compared to drastically different routes it stood out as favourable, and as bonus (which one can justifiedly label ''convenient''), going to Lower Norfair reversely allowed for the 2 quick elevator Superjumps (which otherwise wouldn't have worked in both cases but only once). [quote dekutony] Wow. You guys are so close to achieve the sub hour mark... Hopefully you'll be able to accomplish that goal one day. [/quote] Well, at least if one would use the timing method that is used for unassisted, normal speedruns, the TAS by that timing would be shorter than an hour, so a related goal has been achieved with this TAS. [quote Nicos] BUT the xray strats are very gray area, and while you technically stay inbounds of the MAP; you don't stay inbounds of the rooms themselves; maybe adding "of the map" on the "Forgoes out of bounds" would apease a bit the dilema [/quote] For inbounds questions, I suggest reading up on the matter here, but there shouldn't be any issue on this side regarding the 100% TAS: ( http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=433442&highlight=#433442 ). - - - Remark: Since I've in the past been told to be hard to understand at times, I introduced bold and italic writing styles (aswell as an attempt to structure my post further) this time for the purpose of making my points more clear to the reader.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
dan
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Yes vote from me. I understand that some people don't like the glitched movement, but I think there was good movement for both vanilla and "glitched". For vanilla movment, the jump through the room after Crocomire and the moonfall to the waterway E-tank were both extremely satisfying to see. For the so-called glitched movement, the red tower "climb" and the post-Shaktool spark were also satisfying, at least for me. I will say, that I got to see preview some of the strats ahead of time, with days of buffer in between. When I watched the full TAS back all at once, I kind of realized just how much happens so quickly. Lag reduction was also entertaining for me. I liked how the zeelas died during the entry into Kraid's Warehouse. The Mickey mouse room "clean-up" was absolutely amazing. I am a fan of seeing enemies that are out of the way suddenly exploding. Also, I would like to talk about the grinding for item drops, because I think that was the most time-consuming portion of this TAS. Some sections had to be re-done to pick up extra health, and then be re-done a second time because it still wasn't enough health. I remember thinking at one point "Sniq is pushing Super Metroid to it's limits, but grinding for RNG is pushing Sniq to his limits". Finally, let's talk about the routing of this run. There are notable routing improvements:
  • 1 less trip to Norfair (two elevator rides)
  • Spineshark up two elevators
  • Removed both pauses to refill health from reserves
    • Added one pause to skip the Wrecked Ship Bowling statue
  • Botwoon and Golden Torizo skip
There is not much backtracking in this route, and the number of potential routing improvements are minimal:
  • Early collection of the waterway E-tank
  • Green gate glitch for right facing gates (Reverse Maridia entry and possibly Crocomire escape item)
Alyosha
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EZGames69 wrote:
Alyosha wrote:
You wouldn’t judge someone’s singing talent based on a digitally ‘fixed’ version of their singing
Not a good comparison. It’s more like being a good singer but the microphone you’re using has a loud static noise to it, and you judge the singing based on that.
No, it's not like that. The output a SNES provides for a SNES game is the correct output. Personally I would even consider the word 'fixed' a misnomer in this case, but whatever.
EZGames69
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Well my earlier point remains, I think some of the criticism comes from people not liking this “godgame” to look like a broken mess.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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Considering I think this is supposed to be "No Major Glitches", yeah, I think you can see why some people think that. And if this isn't supposed to be NMG, then why not use spacetime + duping expansions + escape warp to make it faster? (for the record, that is a rhetorical question, since I know this is NMG)
Aran_Jaeger
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[quote Habreno] And if this isn't supposed to be NMG, then why not use spacetime + duping expansions + escape warp to make it faster? (for the record, that is a rhetorical question, since I know this is NMG) [/quote] I think I understand what you mean, and I think the short answer to this would be: Because the addition/incorporation of spacetime + duping expansions + escape warp would satisfy the criteria stated in the Movie Class Guidelines for the definition of major skip glitch, namely it would satisfy and fall under the following: [quote Movie Class Guidelines] Major skip glitch Such movies have a glitch (or a combination of glitches) that allows to skip major portions of the game without satisfying the in-game requirements. Most of the time more than half of the game is skipped, compared to the fastest movie that avoids this technique. Glitches involved are also quite elaborate and often include memory corruption. [/quote] It would circumvent (by repeated, quick item-duping and collecting) the (under usual circumstances existing) in-game requirement of travelling to every individual item pick-up (in order to also collect all individual 100 items, including ''100%'' being shown at the end, as opposed to only achieving the latter), and likely would most of the time skip more than half of the game, compared to the fastest movie that avoids this technique. And as consequence of this, ''major skip glitch'' would be attributed to it, and then from the prevailing branch diversity perspective, in which (as far as I know) minimal overlap/similarity between movies for different branches but of the same game is wished, it probably would come quite close to the ACE TAS (by effectively being the same, except adding a long loop of item acquisition to it in the middle), which could cause a branch overlap conflict there.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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What about sit, grab some snacks and enjoy the movie instead of complain about some graphic glitches? thats why the second encode exist, just watch it, and then the movie explanations. I enjoyed every detail of this movie (despite im not familiar with the game), the music syncs, the insane super jumps, routing and breaking the game as much the TAS can offers, yes vote of course.
You can see more TASes on my youtube channel
DrD2k9
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Regarding duping items: Wasn't it discussed somewhere else that duping doesn't qualify as 100% even if it causes a game to show 100% in the credits? The argument being that the all items had to be collected from their proper locations for a 100% run instead of simply being duped into existence. My memory doesn't work near as well as some others here; but IIRC, it was in the discussion of one of the Zelda games.
Aran_Jaeger
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SUPERMETROIDFTP made an excellent Lua script video for the 100% TAS that can help understanding what actually happens in some situations where this is not visible: Link to video
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)
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Aran Jaeger wrote:
For inbounds questions, I suggest reading up on the matter here, but there shouldn't be any issue on this side regarding the 100% TAS: ( http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=433442&highlight=#433442 )
it's a bit too late for my brain (10Pm) now to have to deals with subpixels so i'll just quote this :
For branches that ban OoB, Samus´ body is not allowed to even partially enter or interact via collision-checks (like walljump-check, unmorph-check, and normal checks when bonking against an object) with the OoB area even just for a single frame (but projectiles may exit the inbounds area, as it is anyways often the case when Wave beam is used, so that wrap-around shots can be applied, but so far is also allowed for Grapple-shots which can even off-screen interact with tiles), except during non-loose (i.e. "normal") elevator rides and (door-)transitions, where it cannot be prevented that Samus exits the inbounds area.
and add the following time stamp : https://youtu.be/VQleOS3jtig?t=1183 at 19:49 samus is clearly going thru a solid ground ( white squares) inmap. are those white squares conssidered inbound or out of bound as the collision checks would normaly prevent samus from going thru ?
Aran_Jaeger
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[quote Niceos] are those white squares conssidered inbound or out of bound as the collision checks would normaly prevent samus from going thru ? [/quote] They are considered to be inbounds, and for the matter of inbounds or out of bounds, it is irrelevant if Samus can move through tiles that are inbounds or cannot move through them. For every room you can find listed on the Wiki for SM ( https://wiki.supermetroid.run/List_of_rooms ), every tile from every room rectangle is inbounds of the corresponding room.
collect, analyse, categorise. "Mathematics - When tool-assisted skills are just not enough" ;) Don't want to be taking up so much space adding to posts, but might be worth mentioning and letting others know for what games 1) already some TAS work has been done (ordered in decreasing amount, relative to a game completion) by me and 2) I am (in decreasing order) planning/considering to TAS them. Those would majorly be SNES games (if not, it will be indicated in the list) I'm focusing on. 1) Spanky's Quest; On the Ball/Cameltry; Musya; Super R-Type; Plok; Sutte Hakkun; The Wizard of Oz; Battletoads Doubledragon; Super Ghouls'n Ghosts; Firepower 2000; Brain Lord; Warios Woods; Super Turrican; The Humans. 2) Secret Command (SEGA); Star Force (NES); Hyperzone; Aladdin; R-Type 3; Power Blade 2 (NES); Super Turrican 2; First Samurai. (last updated: 18.03.2018)