We apply the genre tags to game movies on our own, instead than following what external sources claim, since often different sources make contradicting statements, or sometimes they don't even make sense altogether.
The problem is that I noticed that the current wording of the guideline for Adventure genre seems to be somewhat misleading, as it leaves room for some controversial conclusions. See how is currently written:
Movie Class Guidelines wrote:
Adventure
This genre commonly gives the player secondary goals and allows him/her to revisit earlier locations with no hard time limit.
If we follow closely what it's telling, then it would mean that games like Crash Bandicoot, Spyro, SM64, SMW, NSMB are Adventure games. However, I'm pretty sure that most people would agree that these are not. So I think that we need to add another requirement to the guideline, so that games like the ones I've mentioned would be excluded, while games like Tomba and Zelda would be included.
In my opinion, Adventure games are such because there isn't a level list or a main room from which you can access the levels, like for the games I've mentioned. For example, in Crash Bandicoot you have a Warp Room from which you can access the levels, while instead in Tomba you can access only the places that are positioned near the one where you are in. (of course excluding the ability to teleport, as it's a feature often included in many Adventure games)
So, my idea is to add something like this:
"However, if the game consists in a series of levels that can be accessed from a level map or main room, then it can't be considered as an Adventure game because the different places of the game are not connected to each other depending of their different map location."
Opinions?
I'd also like to see if anyone can find other possible loopholes/flaws with definition of other game genres in our Movie Class Guidelines.
- Stick to the main objective:The goal of classes is to categorize movies based on game genre, movie goals, and various aspects of TASing (that may or may not be entertaining to an audience member). This gives visitors the freedom to group movies based around their particular interests. Therefore proper tagging is critical to the usefulness of this feature.- Meaning of the word:
If many people have different meaning of an Adventure game, than it does't fulfills the goal.
My own interpretation of the word Adventure as in real life:
I think that an adventure is more about experiencing something new you didn't already. It comes with risk and you probably don't plan the whole thing opposing to a trip/travel.
My own interpretation of the word Adventure as in video games:
Going through all the places that someone did/does, experiencing myself what he/she did.
- Regarding the current rule for Adventure:
Revisiting/backtracking/traceback/reenter shouldn't be a feature of Adventure. I mean that you aren't going for an adventure to revisit something.
- Regarding the proposed extra rule for Adventure:
You can't really decide objectively the connection of places. Just because it's visually represented in some way, it could come out differently in the game regarding it's plot or simply the similarity of the levels.
Overall, I think that either change the word or change the current rule. But at the moment, I think it doesn't fulfills what it should.
Some examples where different TASes on the same game having different/(edit) multiple genres:
NES Metroid current pubs http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-metroid.html first has 3 genres second has 2 genres third has 1 genre: action adventure platform, adventure platform, platform
NES Megaman action and platform http://tasvideos.org/Game/nes-mega-man.html
While N64 Super Mario is only platform http://tasvideos.org/Game/n64-super-mario-64.html
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
- Stick to the main objective:The goal of classes is to categorize movies based on game genre, movie goals, and various aspects of TASing (that may or may not be entertaining to an audience member). This gives visitors the freedom to group movies based around their particular interests. Therefore proper tagging is critical to the usefulness of this feature.
My objective is to define the genre so that a certain kind of games would be included in it, while other kind of games would be excluded, as I explained in the first post. Because that's the most functional approach.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
My own interpretation of the word Adventure as in real life:
I think that an adventure is more about experiencing something new you didn't already. It comes with risk and you probably don't plan the whole thing opposing to a trip/travel.
That's deep... Way too deep! Only games that use procedural generation can achieve this experience, like Minecraft or rouguelike games.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
My own interpretation of the word Adventure as in video games:
Going through all the places that someone did/does, experiencing myself what he/she did.
Mine instead is more or less: go wherever you want, gameplay is tendentially non-linear.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
Revisiting/backtracking/traceback/reenter shouldn't be a feature of Adventure. I mean that you aren't going for an adventure to revisit something.
But that's exactly the main feature of most games that are officially been recognized or presented as Adventure genre. It's just a functional way of recognizing them. It's not like we're defying the concept of adventure in a general way, we're just using it as a way of labelling a certain kind of games, regardless of the meaning that the word has outside of videogames.
MESHUGGAH wrote:
You can't really decide objectively the connection of places. Just because it's visually represented in some way, it could come out differently in the game regarding it's plot or simply the similarity of the levels.
It's not just a visual representation! In adventure games, you have to walk your way through a single, unified world, and that's what it makes it unique in its TASing aspects.
And I agree that Metroid is an Adventure game.
This discussion reminds me of this Who Shot Guybrush Threepwood video, which goes into a deep discussion on how exactly the Adventure genre should be defined: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMVl5U3SlS0
Joined: 10/12/2011
Posts: 6337
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Here's a list of Video Games that actually classify as Adventure so you can better understand the genre a bit better instead of plopping it on games that aren't that:
- Adventure (ha)
- Tomb Raider Series
- Uncharted Series
- Grand Theft Auto Series (and Bully)
- Sleeping Dogs
- Mafia Series
- Assassin's Creed Series -- Personally I'd argue that the PSP/DS titles aren't.
- Harry Potter -- Note: Not stating series as I only went through the first 3 games personally
- Metroidvania genre of games.
Personally, I just want to see you walk to the doors of SM64 and convince them that it's really an Adventure Game.
Cause Spoilers. It isn't.
WebNations/Sabih wrote:
+fsvgm777 never censoring anything.
Disables Comments and Ratings for the YouTube account.Something better for yourself and also others.
Here's a list of Video Games that actually classify as Adventure so you can better understand the genre a bit better instead of plopping it on games that aren't that:
It strikes me that all of those are Action-Adventures rather than Adventure Games. The term "adventure game" usually refers to games like Monkey Island, Myst, King's Quest, Shadowgate, or Nancy Drew.
And since this site doesn't have a tag for "action adventure", many of them get double-tagged as both "action game" and "adventure game".
Personally, I just want to see you walk to the doors of SM64 and convince them that it's really an Adventure Game.
Cause Spoilers. It isn't.
Please read my posts. I actually wrote that my line on reasoning brought me to the conclusion that SM64 is not Adventure genre.
Also, I noticed that you removed the Adventure genre from Tomba (again). Why?
In my opinion it features all the typical characteristics of an Adventure game:
you travel through an unified world where you can roam freely,
you complete secondary quests in a non-linear fashion,
you have an inventory for your items of choice.
I think that the whole concept of "adventure game" is poorly defined (not just here, but in general), even ill-defined, and too broad. Whenever I see "adventure game" in sites like tvtropes or Steam, it doesn't seem to have a very well-defined or clear definition, and the games listed there seem to be very random in genre, style and content.
The main problem, as you point out here, is that it's just too broad, and hard to define in a manner that would not include like 50+% of games out there. Even attempts at a stricter definition easily encompass games that belong quite clearly to some other category.
For example, are open-world RPG games "adventure games"? I think that whatever definition of "adventure game" you come up with will encompass the vast majority of RPG games.
If "adventure game" encompasses such wide variety of game types as western-style and Japanese-style RPGs, metroidvania games, open world games like the GTA series or the Assassin's Creed series, more open-world and story-heavy interactive first-person shooters, and so on, it's a bit too broad of a category to be really useful. It doesn't delimit game genres enough to be very useful. If such different games as Skyrim, GTA5, Super Metroid, Braid, The Witcher 3, Dark Souls, and Dishonored all fall into the "adventure game" category, it's a bit too broad. It doesn't really tell what kind of game it is.
Here's a list of Video Games that actually classify as Adventure so you can better understand the genre a bit better instead of plopping it on games that aren't that:
In general an "Adventure Game" is one who's primary mechanic of driving game progress involves collecting inventory items from various locations which are then used in other locations to solve some puzzle that is preventing progress in the game. Adventure games almost always contain some degree of mental/intellectual challenge in solving these puzzles through the inventory/puzzle based primary mechanic. As others have mentioned, the various Sierra "Quest" games are good examples.
In regards to free-roaming/non-linear play: This should not be a requirement for something to be deemed an adventure game. While some areas in adventure games may be freely roamed, many adventure games do follow a linear progression through the game. In these cases, backtracking either becomes pointless or impossible depending on how the game is coded. Again the "Quest" games are good examples of this forced progression/linearity within an adventure game.
EDIT: Another quick thought on backtracking/non-linearity. If the backtracking is only present to allow for secondary objectives that aren't necessary to complete the game, this level of backtracking alone isn't enough to qualify a game as an "Adventure" game. : END EDIT
Regarding RPGs as adventure games. The key differentiation here is in the primary mechanic that drives progression of the game. IMO Adventure games, have the inventory focused puzzle solving as their primary driving mechanic, where RPGs have leveling-up and character development as their primary driving mechanic. There are some games that appear mix these two genre's together (example: the Quest for Glory series), but even these tend to focus more heavily to one or the other. The Quest for Glory series does indeed use various character stats similar to RPGs, but it still drives the game primarily via inventory based puzzle solving. The character stats/classes only really serve to determine which path(s) a character is able to take in solving the progression of puzzles.
MetroidVania games as adventure games? While these games often have a similar situation where progress is limited until a certain item is acquired, the difference between these and adventure games lies in the use of the item. Items collected in adventure games tend to allow progression by enabling the player to solve one (or in some cases a small number of) specific puzzle(s) using that item. Items collected in Metroidvania games by contrast are more akin to power-ups that tend to allow for infinite uses to allow a more widespread exploration of the game-world, but not necessary allow solution of one (or a few) particular puzzles. Another key difference is that Metroidvania games quite often include developing skills of action/platforming as a primary means of progressing through the game. Adventure games rarely require a significant level of reflex based (hand/eye coordination type) gaming skills, but instead tend to focus on challenging the minds ability to think through a solution to a problem.
Regarding open-world platformer/action games like Assassin's Creed, GTA, etc: These games rarely have the 'get object in one place and use it in another to solve a puzzle' as the primary mechanic that drives the game, IMO. They are instead more non-linear disjointed objectives/quests that can be completed however the player chooses. In many cases, these games contain MANY objectives/side quests that are neither necessary nor required to progress through the game. Further, even when inventory items can be collected in these various disjointed objectives, they are either power-up in nature (similar to Metroidvania games) or they are rarely required (or even able) to be used in a different objective/side quest. In these games, the progression through the main game is usually accomplished by completion of a series of objectives that themselves are unconnected and in some cases un-ordered. Contrast this to adventure games that require collecting an item very early in the game in one location only to hold it in inventory nearly the entire game before it's proper use becomes apparent in a wholly different location where the action using the object is finally performed.
Comparison to classic text adventure games: Another way to help identify an adventure game is to compare the driving mechanic of the game to classic text adventure games from the 70's and 80's. These games usually followed the 'get inventory item/use inventory item' mechanic necessary to progress through the game. The difference between these and more modern adventure games was simply in input method (text vs. point/click vs. console controller) and game display (text vs. graphical); but the primary mechanic of solving puzzles with inventory items remains.
For example compare two shining examples of the Adventure genre: the early Infocom text based Zork series and Lucas Arts' Grim Fandango which is graphical and (originally) had a tank movement based control scheme.
TL:DR When differentiation between game genres is considered, the genre distinction should be based on the primary mechanic of game progression.
Adventure: Progress is based primarily on the collection/usage of specific inventory items to solve a specific intellectual challenges/puzzles. Hand/eye coordination and/or reflexive skills are rarely a main aspect of these games.
Action/platforming: - Progress based primarily on the act of movement through the game world, especially focusing on rewarding development of improved hand/eye coordination skills.
RPG: Progress based primarily on developing character skills/traits to be able to conquer tougher opponents as the game progresses.
MetroidVania: Progress based on finding and utilizing power-up based improvements to a character.
Open-World/Objective Progression: Progress is based on the completion of a predefined group of objectives which themselves are often unconnected to each other and can often be completed in a variety of orders.
Strategy (Real time or turn-based) Progress is often linked to wise resource management.
These categorizations aren't meant to suggest that a game can only belong to one genre. But what is identifiable as a game's primary progression mechanic should be the overriding factor in determining a game's primary genre.
Unfortunately, some games are enough of a blend of these categories that it makes it hard to determine the overriding primary mechanic. For example the Zelda series is a combination of Action, Metroidvania, and adventure genres.
MetroidVania games as adventure games? While these games often have a similar situation where progress is limited until a certain item is acquired, the difference between these and adventure games lies in the use of the item. Items collected in adventure games tend to allow progression by enabling the player to solve one (or in some cases a small number of) specific puzzle(s) using that item. Items collected in Metroidvania games by contrast are more akin to power-ups that tend to allow for infinite uses to allow a more widespread exploration of the game-world, but not necessary allow solution of one (or a few) particular puzzles. Another key difference is that Metroidvania games quite often include developing skills of action/platforming as a primary means of progressing through the game. Adventure games rarely require a significant level of reflex based (hand/eye coordination type) gaming skills, but instead tend to focus on challenging the minds ability to think through a solution to a problem.
I think that the distinction that you are making here is that in metroidvania style games you search for (sometimes literal) keys to open (sometimes literal) doors, which usually require zero effort to open once you have whatever objects acts as the "key" to it, while in adventure games you search for puzzle pieces, which then have to be used in a non-trivial manner in order to be able to advance in the game.
In this sense I would actually classify most Zelda games, even the 3D ones, as metroidvania, because almost the entire game (except for some sidequests) consists pretty much of obtaining objects which, once gotten, act as keys to trivially open obstacles. (Even beating bosses is usually done just to get an object that the boss drops, which allows advancing in the game. Although sometimes in these types of games it's not always a literal object, but just merely defeating the boss opens a new path that was previously blocked eg. by an NPC or other such thing.)
I also think this classification principle would make The Talos Principle and adventure game. Maybe it is?
I see your points regarding Zelda being a primarily metroidvania game series based on my above distinctions; I don't disagree with those perspectives.
Warp wrote:
I also think this classification principle would make The Talos Principle and adventure game. Maybe it is?
I'm not personally familiar with The Talos Principle, but I watched a youtube clip of the game. It strikes me as more of a Portal type game; or a series of environment manipulation puzzles.
Perhaps that's too nitpicky of a distinction from an adventure game for some people.
I guess the distinction I see between Portal/The Talos Principle type games and adventure games again comes down to item use.
Management/use of multiple inventory items to solve challenges (especially when there's nothing in the game that teaches what each item is for) = adventure game
Manipulation/management of environmental objects (especially when the use of the items is obvious or deliberately taught by the game) = Portal type sequential puzzler. Another example of this type of puzzler (also 1st person) would be Quantum Conundrum
I agree with Radiant and andypanther about adventure games are The Secret of Monkey Island, Myst, King's Quest, Shadowgate, or Nancy Drew, similar as what Wikipedia mentions.
DrD2k9 also nicely encompassed the main features that can be used to distinguish adventure games from others. Let me rephrase them with different wording:
- Gameplay is presented through narrative/interactive story
- Progressing by finding, collecting items and using them to interact with the environment
- Player uses mostly mental/intellectual skills to read the story, find solution to puzzles rathen than physical skills to react and (edit) use movement skils with the controller
From the Who Shot Guybrush Threepwood youtube video, there's a thesis that talks about defining video games:
Final Fantasy VII, The Legend of Zelda:
Phantom Hourglass and Psychonauts may have narratives with a similar quest-like
structure. However, all these games belong to different, though related, genres—Final
Fantasy VII is a Japanese Computer Role-Playing Game, The Legend of Zelda is an
action-adventure, and Psychonauts is a platformer. Referring to quest alone to define the
adventure game genre is far too general a concept and would yield a corpus of games
beyond the scope of this dissertation. Defining genre based on the structure of the story is
also limiting, since it would exclude adventure games that follow the detective story
structure, for example.
Also I like DrD2k9's suggestion, (edit) because probably this should be the real genre of a TAS of a game. When differentiation between game genres is considered, the genre distinction should be based on the primary mechanic of game progression.
From the same thesis:
Adventure games are story-driven videogames, which encourage exploration and
puzzle solving and always have at least one player character. The basic interaction of
adventure games is based on object manipulation and spatial navigation. Their challenges
usually appear in the form of concatenated puzzles, which are integrated in the fictional
world.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
I'm not personally familiar with The Talos Principle, but I watched a youtube clip of the game. It strikes me as more of a Portal type game; or a series of environment manipulation puzzles.
Perhaps that's too nitpicky of a distinction from an adventure game for some people.
The Talos Principle is different from Portal in this regard because in the former you actually need to find and collect puzzle pieces, and then literally solve those puzzles in order to advance (often by literally opening doors by solving a puzzle). In Portal you don't collect anything.
This is why I mentioned The Talos Principle in particular, because of the "in an adventure game you search for and collect items which are then used to solve puzzles", which fits it perfectly.
After looking at two different The Talos Principle speedruns, the biggest differences between the already listed adventure game examples are:
- 3D view: The third dimension brings a marginally greater possibilities of different locations of objects
- Heavy usage of movement / Platformer: Progression is primarily done by moving the camera (mouse) and yourself (movement)
- The story seems only serve as a background. I mean non of your actions are driven by the story. You are doing whatever it means to go to the next level instead of listening and thinking. (edited)
I would say this is platformer + puzzle. Maybe this should be true to Portal too, didn't really investigated that one.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
So, if the definition of "adventure game" is "progress is based primarily on the collection/usage of specific inventory items to solve a specific intellectual challenges/puzzles; hand/eye coordination and/or reflexive skills are rarely a main aspect of these games", could someone give examples of very representative and archetypal adventure games, other than point-and-click ones?
So, if the definition of "adventure game" is "progress is based primarily on the collection/usage of specific inventory items to solve a specific intellectual challenges/puzzles; hand/eye coordination and/or reflexive skills are rarely a main aspect of these games", could someone give examples of very representative and archetypal adventure games, other than point-and-click ones?
I agree with Radiant and andypanther about adventure games are The Secret of Monkey Island, Myst, King's Quest, Shadowgate, or Nancy Drew, similar as what Wikipedia mentions.
PhD in TASing 🎓 speedrun enthusiast ❤🚷🔥 white hat hacker ▓ black box tester ░ censorships and rules...
So, if the definition of "adventure game" is "progress is based primarily on the collection/usage of specific inventory items to solve a specific intellectual challenges/puzzles; hand/eye coordination and/or reflexive skills are rarely a main aspect of these games", could someone give examples of very representative and archetypal adventure games, other than point-and-click ones?
I mentioned Grim Fandango earlier. It (at least originally) wasn't point & click; though that option for input has been added in the re-release of the game.
Another example is Dreamfall: The Longest Journey.
Obviously any text parser based yet graphically presented game where mouse input isn't present (many older Sierra games) wouldn't be 'point & click' but would follow similar mechanics.
I'm sure there are probably others, but I can't think of any more specifics off the top of my head. The bulk of archetypal adventure games do fall into the 'point & click' category.
For reference, here's a list of the top 100 Adventure games (at least according to that website). The bulk are point click.
That list does include games like Portal (which I've already mentioned is more of a 3d puzzle than an adventure IMO).
Games in the Myst series are also mentioned in that list. I'm not sure how to categorize them as they fall between 3d Puzzle and Adventure to me. They typically have little inventory management and are more a series of strictly intellectual puzzles. But if you consider information/clues presented in-game (like the various alphabets/numbering systems) as a kind of of intellectual inventory item that must be used elsewhere in the game world, they show some similarity to adventure games. This is often the case in the Myst games as the information is often obscure and some distance from where it is utilized; forcing the player to figure out what the information means first then use it (this again is like Adventure games). Contrast this to 3d puzzle/Portal-type games, where information is often presented directly to you, you know what it means almost immediately, and often use the information immediately as well.
Categorizing games is truly a difficult task...especially as developers find more and more ways to blend genres.
So from what I gather from this discussion, the features of an adventure game are the following:
* Usually relatively story-heavy, with a story narrative being in a significant, even primary role, often with lots of narration, dialogue or other type of information.
* Slow-paced. The player is free to interact with and advance in the game at any pace. Most usually there's no hurry to do anything in a given amount of time, there's no dexterity or skill required (eg. aiming and shooting at enemies), and doing nothing for a long time will not cause any sort of penalty or game over in any situation. If there are any game over conditions in the game, they are caused by wrong choices, not by not reacting soon enough to something or not being physically skillful enough. The difficulty in advancing in the game does not come from skill and timing, but from finding objects and solving puzzles.
* Inventory and puzzle based. Most often the player is required to find and collect items, which are then used to advance in the game, usually in a non-trivial manner. Quite often the items themselves have to be used in some kind of puzzle or other non-trivial way to advance. Usually these objects and puzzles make some storywise sense (rather than being completely abstract and detached from the setting).
* The focus of the game is precisely the collectables, the inventory and the puzzles, rather than them being just a secondary element (which would be the case eg. in RPGs.)
* Often, although not always necessarily, relatively open-world and exploration-based (which directly ties to the player having to find the objects necessary to advance in the game), and quite non-linear in nature (at least locally in each level/location).
* Usually has no combat mechanics of any kind (with the exception of some kind of puzzle dressed up as "combat", or some kind of humorous gimmick.)
Examples of games that are not adventure games because they don't fit into the above categories:
- Sokoban: Consists of puzzles, but there's not story, no collectibles and no inventory. There's no exploration element.
- Super Metroid: Quite open-world exploration, player needs to find objects to advance, but contains almost no puzzles and is heavily combat-based, skill-based and timing-based in many situations. Not very story-heavy.
- Final Fantasy: Open-world exploration, vast amounts of collectibles and a vast inventory, very story heavy. Due to turn-based combat, requires no fast-paced reflexes and skill. However, has a very big emphasis on its combat mechanics and has almost no puzzles to solve, and the inventory is only a secondary characteristic of the game (leveling up being the primary one).
- Dark Souls: Very open-world, and has collectibles and an inventory. However, is almost completely combat and skill based, with almost no puzzles of any kind. In many situations not doing anything is heavily penalized (eg. when being attacked by enemies.)
- Portal: Puzzle-based, relatively story-heavy, has no combat (with minor exceptions, as the player may be shot at). However, has no inventory and no collectibles. Very linear, has no exploration element. Some puzzles require timing and skill.
- "4X" games in general: Very open world, heavily inventory-based (at least if we consider resources to be inventory), and in the case of turn-based games, timing of actions is not an issue. Many games can be quite story-heavy. However, they have no puzzles, and the emphasis is in the combat system, with the collectibles being aimed at better combat, rather than solving puzzles.
Yea...that's a pretty good summary.
There are exceptions to the "doing nothing for a long time will not cause any sort of penalty or game over in any situation" generalization; but when present, the time limits allotted to accomplish a particular goal are typically very generous allowing the game play to stay relatively slow-paced.
I'm sure the features of Adventure games, which games qualify, and which ones don't belong could be discussed ad infinitum. And there will always be some subjectivity to it.
For the moment, I can't contribute further to the discussion, but I wanted to hop here and say that I agree with everything DrD2k9 wrote in his first post.
...so can we do something about this?
Such as adding an "action adventure" tag to prevent double-tagging all those games as "action" and "adventure" both? Or update the wiki?
...so can we do something about this?
Such as adding an "action adventure" tag to prevent double-tagging all those games as "action" and "adventure" both? Or update the wiki?
What would be the definition of "action adventure"?
Would it be an adventure game that has more (or even primary) emphasis on real-time combat?
