Post by MUGG

Posted: 2/2/2020 4:11 PM

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Freezard

Joined: 2/2/2020
Posts: 3

Good to see MMM lists too. Some updated scores: btt doc 13.28 console PAL Demon9 (https://clips.twitch.tv/SparklingManlySquirrelKeepo) btt link 3.52 samthedigital (no video) btt pika 6.90 sockdude1 = emulator hrc marth 1352.9 PAL console hrctypo (https://youtu.be/JiZcoWSlWxs) hrc bowser 1369.6 NTSC console hrctypo (https://youtu.be/Uxl5LuN-nSg) hrc pichu 1471.8 PAL emulator freezard (https://youtu.be/2qg4UKHa81U) event 24 22.50 = emulator event 50 11.21 = emulator event 51 18.36 = NTSC 10MM mario TAS = NTSC 1.0 10MM mario 6.45 NTSC 1.0 console ssj4vegeto50 (https://youtu.be/hUNFYB6n0wo) 10MM bowser TAS = NTSC 10MM ice climbers TAS = PAL 10MM ness 7.28 TAS NTSC 1.0 Nintendude (https://youtu.be/9eDq3a2FRx8)

Posted: 2/3/2020 8:17 PM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2329)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3933
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Thanks Freezard. I updated the page with your changes. * A video will always be required in order to be added, so unfortunately I cannot add btt link by samthedigital. * For 10MM and 100MM I will add region icons at a later time. * For 10MM Ness, I recognize that it only works in NTSC 1.0 or 1.1 because of the difference in PK Thunder. However as far as I tested and notified you, in 10MM Mario, Mario's hitstun is different only between All NTSC and PAL. Mario's Up-Special has no hitlag (for the attacker) during some parts of the attack in all NTSC versions but it does lag at least 1 frame during all hits on PAL. I verified the MD5 hash for all versions I tested on; They match the sums listed on the regional differences ssb wiki. If you still think this is not true, then let me know so we can get to the bottom of this. I can try to offer additional video clips.

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Posted: 2/3/2020 10:28 PM

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Freezard

Joined: 2/2/2020
Posts: 3

Nice, just one mistake you put Ness 10MM TAS as RTA. Can you post a video with Mario up b in HRC on NTSC 1.2? Maybe there is a difference between NTSC-J and NTSC, I didn't test any Japanese versions. But on American version 1.2 and PAL there should be lag.

Posted: 2/23/2020 8:21 PM

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MUGG

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Joined: 5/15/2007
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Location: Germany

Freezard wrote:

Can you post a video with Mario up b in HRC on NTSC 1.2? Maybe there is a difference between NTSC-J and NTSC, I didn't test any Japanese versions. But on American version 1.2 and PAL there should be lag.

I just tested and you were right. Certain parts of Mario's Up-B have no lag on NTSC 1.0 and 1.1, but they have lag on 1.2 and PAL. Perhaps I did mix up the versions in my previous testing. As a result,

I added a note for 10-MM Mario on the SSBM records page, telling that it's 1.0 and 1.1 only.
I moved a note on the ssb wiki from PAL to NTSC 1.2: "Attacks that deal less than 1% damage, such as Mario's Up-Special, now cause stun for the attacker."

I'm still not quite certain if this difference is specific to all attacks or just Mario's up-b, though.

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Posted: 2/23/2020 8:31 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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Sounds like it's the same hitlag change that causes moves that do less than 1% not to be SDIable in NTSC 1.0 and 1.1. With that logic, I would assume it would apply to all such moves, not just Mario's up B.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 2/29/2020 5:14 AM

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Freezard

Joined: 2/2/2020
Posts: 3

Yeah it works on every attack that deals less than 1% damage like Mario Tornado etc. In the wiki there are now two lines that say the same thing: "Moves that do less than 1% are now possible to Smash DI." "Attacks that deal less than 1% damage, such as Mario's Up-Special, now cause stun for the attacker." I think the Smash DI line should be removed because it's really just a side-effect of there being hitlag for the attacker. "Moves that deal less than 1% damage now cause hitlag."

Posted: 3/6/2020 8:53 AM

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bonecrusher1022

Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 41
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

Dunno if they affect any thing for stadium but other moves that come to mind that are effected by this are Young Link's grounded Up Special, Pichu's Forward smash, Samus Up Special, as well i think a couple moves with Ice Climbers? Also, I noticed the Ness 10MM TAS video link redirects to the same one as the RTA run so here's that to fix when you get the chance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eDq3a2FRx8

Posted: 4/5/2020 5:20 AM

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Bloopiero

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Joined: 1/9/2017
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Another BtT record from Scott, although I'm sure it would've been added anyways. Link to video Also, GarySSBM has quite a few records that aren't on the sheet? Just from a quick look over his channel there are BtT Suicides, including one that beats mugg's TAS for Luigi, and a lot of Race to the Finish runs.

Whale eat again

Posted: 4/6/2020 9:29 PM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2329)

Joined: 5/15/2007
Posts: 3933
Location: Germany

Apparently, Captain Falcon can have a different ECB depending what skin you choose.

Magus420 wrote:

Normal 1088 White .1096 Blue ..1097 Red ...1099 Black .1100 Green .1102

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Posted: 4/6/2020 9:43 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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This has been known for more than a decade, but are there any instances in things like Target Test where this may be relevant? Thinking of something like maybe being able to walljump a frame sooner somewhere if you play as green Falcon. But there's also a good chance that the difference is too minor to affect anything relevant at all.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/7/2020 8:35 AM

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bonecrusher1022

Joined: 2/11/2015
Posts: 41
Location: Pennsylvania, USA

I saw this vid a couple weeks ago showing the mentioned thing in the thread as well as screenshot comparisons of all the collision. Maybe it'd be useful to help mess with it Link to video

Posted: 4/10/2020 1:28 AM

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Bloopiero

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Should the new Pika btt be on the sheet? Your rules say that you don't allow records performed in 20XX, which it is.

Whale eat again

Posted: 4/10/2020 10:22 AM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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For BtT it most likely doesn't really matter, as there are no AIs that would be influenced by 20XX's changes, and I don't know of any other 20XX changes/glitches that would otherwise impact BtT.

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 4/12/2020 11:14 AM

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MUGG

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Mothrayas wrote:

This has been known for more than a decade, but are there any instances in things like Target Test where this may be relevant? Thinking of something like maybe being able to walljump a frame sooner somewhere if you play as green Falcon. But there's also a good chance that the difference is too minor to affect anything relevant at all.

~~There is also the possibility that Green Falcon can die a frame sooner for Btt Suicide categories, since dying by blastzone is dependent on the character's projected ECB.~~ EDIT: Nevermind, it looks like the base point of the ECB is used which is located at the bottom of the diamond shape and it's always the same. But for things like "landing earlier" or "walljumping earlier" there is still hope.

Bloopiero wrote:

Should the new Pika btt be on the sheet? Your rules say that you don't allow records performed in 20XX, which it is.

I did not know this. I will ask PracticalTAS to do it on vanilla Melee. I would like to be careful after seeing that 20XX can have stuff like this occur. Mothrayas response to that can be found here.

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Posted: 4/27/2020 5:49 PM

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MUGG

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I'm fascinated to see a glitch like this exists Link to video I don't think it has anything to do with the actual rendering itself, but just some bug in the code related to Whispy's animation frame. Similar to how Sandbag can shorthop when attempting to jump on the 89th frame of his standing animation loop. Just some oddity that only happens on a very specific frame. Reminds me of this bug in Kirby's Dream Land. And again I think about the infamous super yoyo glitch. There is some information people wrote that it happened to them while playing against a CPU Ganondorf on FD ( smashboards thread ). What if there is an oddity related to Final Destination's background animation that allows for bugs to happen with characters' attacks? Similar to how Marth's and Roy's attacks are bugged by Whispy's animation, Ness' attacks could be bugged by FD's background animation. I'm really surprised to see things like Falcon's ECB difference and now this Marth and Roy bug. Is there anything else I didn't see yet?

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Posted: 5/3/2020 7:59 PM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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#6735: Noxxa's GC Super Smash Bros. Melee "Classic Mode" in 05:36.93 Link to video

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 5/4/2020 11:43 AM

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Noxxa

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A few weeks back, DyllonStej posted a video comparing run and wavedash speeds for every character. It's a quite useful reference video (especially for wavedashes), and I think it's useful to have its statistics compiled somewhere for easier reference. All numbers represent the number of frames it takes to move from one side of Battlefield to the other. All wavedashes use perfect timing and angles.

                    Run    Wavedash
Bowser              95     92
Captain Falcon      62     84
Donkey Kong         89     93
Dr. Mario           94     76
Falco               93     85
Fox                 65     77
Ganondorf           104    90
Ice Climbers        100    64
Jigglypuff          127    99
Kirby               100    85
Link                108    110
Luigi               105    63
Mario               94     76
Marth               79     78
Mewtwo              100    69
Mr. Game & Watch    94     76
Ness                100    78
Peach               99     94
Pichu               82     89
Pikachu             79     85
Roy                 89     84
Samus               99     73
Sheik               79     87
Yoshi               88     78
Young Link          88     84
Zelda               127    110

Run speed order: 1. Captain Falcon - 62 2. Fox - 65 3. Marth - 79 3. Pikachu - 79 3. Sheik - 79 6. Pichu - 82 7. Yoshi - 88 7. Young Link - 88 9. Donkey Kong - 89 9. Roy - 89 11. Falco - 93 12. Dr. Mario - 94 12. Mario - 94 12. Mr. Game & Watch - 94 15. Bowser - 95 16. Peach - 99 16. Samus - 99 18. Ice Climbers - 100 18. Kirby - 100 18. Mewtwo - 100 18. Ness - 100 22. Ganondorf - 104 23. Luigi - 105 24. Link - 108 25. Jigglypuff - 127 26. Zelda - 127 Wavedash speed: 1. Luigi - 63 2. Ice Climbers - 64 3. Mewtwo - 69 4. Samus - 73 5. Dr. Mario - 76 5. Mario - 76 5. Mr. Game & Watch - 76 8. Fox - 77 9. Marth - 78 9. Ness - 78 9. Yoshi - 78 12. Captain Falcon - 84 12. Roy - 84 12. Young Link - 84 15. Falco - 85 15. Kirby - 85 15. Pikachu - 85 18. Sheik - 87 19. Pichu - 89 20. Ganondorf - 90 21. Bowser - 92 22. Donkey Kong - 93 23. Peach - 94 24. Jigglypuff - 99 25. Link - 110 25. Zelda - 110 Overall fastest: 1. Captain Falcon - 62 (Run) 2. Luigi - 63 (Wavedash) 3. Ice Climbers - 64 (Wavedash) 4. Fox - 65 (Run) 5. Mewtwo - 69 (Wavedash) 6. Samus - 73 (Wavedash) 7. Dr. Mario - 76 (Wavedash) 7. Mario - 76 (Wavedash) 7. Mr. Game & Watch - 76 (Wavedash) 10. Marth - 78 (Wavedash) 10. Ness - 78 (Wavedash) 10. Yoshi - 78 (Wavedash) 13. Pikachu - 79 (Run) 13. Sheik - 79 (Run) 15. Pichu - 82 (Run) 16. Roy - 84 (Wavedash) 16. Young Link - 84 (Wavedash) 18. Falco - 85 (Wavedash) 18. Kirby - 85 (Wavedash) 20. Donkey Kong - 89 (Run) 21. Ganondorf - 90 (Wavedash) 22. Bowser - 92 (Wavedash) 23. Peach - 94 (Wavedash) 24. Jigglypuff - 99 (Wavedash) 25. Link - 108 (Run) 26. Zelda - 110 (Wavedash)

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 5/4/2020 2:17 PM

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MUGG

Editor, Expert player (2329)

Joined: 5/15/2007
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My testing

Green Falcon  
Running - 61 frames
Running Perfect Wavedashes - 77 frames

It came to my attention that there is a strange version difference about how the game treats move staling for Ness' PK Flash. This is the conclusion of my testing: In 1.00 and 1.01, if PK Flash hits someone and then on a subsequent frame more opponents are hit, those opponents will receive the staled version of the attack. In 1.02 and PAL, if someone is subsequently hit, that opponent will receive the same attack as the first hit opponent. More info in this pastebin: https://pastebin.com/SwFTaaJf I added this oddity to the version differences page.

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Posted: 5/24/2020 1:37 AM

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Noxxa

They/Them

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I TASed an Event again: ~~https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kLAcxCw5gY .dtm~~ EDIT: Saved 3 frames: Link to video (.dtm)

http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.

Posted: 5/27/2020 5:53 PM

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