(Link to video)

Game Description

“Zool – Ninja of the Nth Dimension” is a platformer released in 1993 for various consoles including the Sega Master System. The game varies drastically across platforms. The Game Gear version has similar mechanics to Master System, but entirely different level layouts.
The Master System version was exclusive to Europe, hence the PAL settings were used (sorry encoders :P)
The objective of each level is to collect 99 objects. These objects could be food, z-tokens or items such as super jump. Once you collect 99, the arrow will point to the exit. The exit does not exist until you have 99.
It turns out none of this matters because this game is beatable within 32 frames of actual gameplay. This is the game end glitch category which obseletes #6572: The8bitbeast's SMS Zool: Ninja of the "Nth" Dimension "game end glitch" in 03:10.05 by 8373 frames (a time save of 2:47.46)!
The final time for this TAS is 21.609 seconds, making it the fastest Master System TAS on TASvideos!
This TAS is a 9.88 second time using RTA timing as on https://www.speedrun.com/zool_sega_master_system/full_game It is possible to get a 9.84 time, but that would result in a later final input, meaning a slower TAS timing.

The New Credits Warp

My current published TAS uses a credits warp in 2-1 which involves being hit by an enemy onto a bouncy surface. The earliest this warp can be done is in 2-1 (level 5) as there are no bouncy surfaces in levels 1 to 4. After this TAS, an RTA community for this game emerged. During a run, cxrnxr encountered an earlier credits warp in 1-2 https://youtu.be/pUnCy4g7G08
After this credits warp was found, a gold rush to push it earlier begun. With lots of help from the community, I was able to pull back the credits warp to the start of level 1.
The key to the credits warp is to have Zool teeter on an edge and press up (Note that you can also press P2 Up or P2 Down). Pressing up appears to reset/affect Zool’s teetering animation and doing this with specific positioning at specific spots of the animation will cause the game to warp you to the credits.
There is also a third method of credits warp that has been found by Phozon, but it is slower than the teetering method. In the clip Phozon gets hit by an enemy into a bouncy surface, then grabs a wall. The game warps him to the credits upon him grabbing the wall. It is currently unknown if this is possible without the bouncy surface. https://clips.twitch.tv/WildPunchyStapleAMPTropPunch

Optimizing the Game End Glitch

As the game end glitch has to do with Zool’s teetering animation, causing certain things to happen with the animation can trigger it.
One option is to wait for Zool to teeter and experiment with pressing up at certain points of the animation. This is bad as you have to wait for some time before he will start teetering.
The alternative is to press up on the frame you reach 0 speed. Simply reaching 0 speed from not pressing buttons doesn’t work, but reaching 0 speed through pressing L, R or L+R gives potential to cause the glitch. Therefore, in the TAS, I aim for the fastest time for Zool to be:
-In the teeter range of the edge while
-Pressing L, R or L+R and
-Reaching 0 speed on the same frame (I’ve never seen the glitch occur with nonzero speed)
As such, I hold L at the start of the TAS until Zool has moved to the left enough that letting go of L will allow him to reach the edge. Here is a list of acceleration values with the buttons that are pressed shortly after letting go of L:
Buttons PressedAcceleration to the right
Neutral0x48
Right0x40
Down0x15
L+R0x00
L-0x40
It is important to note that shortly after letting go of L, pressing R, L+R or nothing will all have the same effect on speed, which is equivalent to the acceleration of letting go of L. The R or L+R accelerations from the table only come into effect once you have a speed below 0x0200, which occurs 9 frames after letting go of left at top speed (0x400). Despite not affecting speeds when at high speeds, pressing R or L+R has some affect on the glitch as it affects the teetering animation.
Counter intuitively, pressing R actually causes Zool to decelerate slower, making him go more to the left! This can be used to potentially make it to the edge while letting go of left a frame earlier.
This TAS reaches 0 speed on frame 1073, at which point it presses up as it’s last input. The previous input was a R input with some speed about to hit 0. As discussed previously, this can lead to the glitch.
My main concern is that it is possible to reach the edge with 0 speed on frame 1072 by utilizing down presses. However down presses have an acceleration of 0x15, which misaligns your speed value modulo 8 and there is no way to restore the alignment other than hitting 0 speed (using neutral inputs) or using 8 down presses. Unfortunately, it doesn’t seem possible to trigger the glitch by pressing up on the frame you hit 0 speed if you achieved that 0 speed through a neutral d-pad input.

Jumping

Jumping causes faster acceleration and deceleration, but it is not useful as the smallest jump lands later than the last input of this TAS and there does not seem to be a way to trigger the glitch in the air.

Brute Forcing Attempts

In a desperate attempt to save that potential extra frame, I wrote some scripts to brute force this TAS. As mentioned above, we can remove jumping from the search, but each frame we have any combinations of U,D,L,R, shoot to choose from. From here I noticed that down has the highest priority and up has the lowest priority, meaning that I didn’t include any inputs in my brute force that had combinations of up or down with left or right.
I also didn’t do much brute forcing with bullet shooting because it didn’t seem to have a serious impact. Most of my attempts only pressed up at the end of the inputs, since it doesn’t seem to do anything in game apart from messing with your teetering animation and triggering the glitch.
My method for detecting a game end glitch was to look at the level value and check that it wasn’t 0. The glitch always corrupts your level value to something different.
Below I’ll summarize a number of different approaches that I took to brute forcing, but it is likely that I missed some attempts that I’ve forgotten about.

Brute force attempt 1

My first attempt literally started searching the whole d-pad and shooting space before I realized the search reduction methods above. I got about 5-6 frames in with the brute forcing and did not trigger the game end glitch.

Brute force attempt 2

I started the run by holding left for a bit, then went 1-2 frames before this TAS lets go of left and searched the space with the minimizations above. I got 6-7 frames in without triggering the glitch.
I also only allowed neutral and R within 7 frames of letting go of left. Both neutral and R do the same thing to your speed, but have different effects on your teetering and hence the glitch. L+R and R have identical effects in all aspects within 7 frames of letting go of left.

Brute force attempt 3

I held left until the frame before I let go of left in this movie and searched the whole space. I noticed that L+R, R and neutral did the same thing within 7 frames of you letting go of left. Once again, I got 8-9 frames in without triggering the glitch

Brute force attempt 4

Here I assumed that left wouldn’t be used after I let go of left, so I removed this from the search

Brute force attempt 5

I let go of left 1 frame earlier than this movie and removed down from the search space as down results in the speed misalignment. I did not find a solution that was faster than this TAS

Brute force attempt 6

Same as attempt 5 except that I let go of left on the same frame as this movie. Here I reproduced the glitch at the same speed as this movie through the brute forcer. Interestingly, last input was on the same frame as this movie, but the fadeout to the credits happened 2 frames slower. This was because the brue forcer stumbled across a slightly different pattern of pressing right vs pressing neutral in the 7 frame window after letting go of left.
At this point I concluded that the brute forcing attempts were finished and I had not found any improvements to my original solution by hand (this submitted movie). It’s possible that the fadeout could happen quicker than this movie, but not the last input.
I’m extremely confident that I exhaustively searched the space of left, right and left+right inputs. However it was too computationally intense to search the space including down inputs fully. I did however search a large portion of that down input space.
This means that I’m relying on my understanding of the glitch triggering conditions to conclude that this it optimal. Although, the elusive potential frame save still bothers me a lot, hence all the brute forcing attempts and delayed submission.
My original script can be found at this link, but I ended up with about 10 different scripts in the end for different phases of testing. This is just my first script: Userfiles/Info/61050675887497989

RTA Community and “Console Verification”

Shortly after my original TAS, an RTA community popped up for this game. This led to many discoveries including the new game end glitch that allowed me to save so much time with this TAS.
After finding the new game end glitch, I quickly made a TAS which matches this submission’s TAS timing. I realized that this would be possible to match RTA as it only relied on hitting 2 frame perfect inputs. After some trying, I managed to get the WR of 9.88 seconds RTA timing. Note: RTA timing starts from pressing 1 on the title screen and ends on the first fully blue frame after the level fades out to the credits.
I made a tutorial on how to achieve 9.88 and we eventually had 40 people tie my RTA world record of 9.88!
Of significant note is btrim who achieved 9.88 on console https://youtu.be/RNwVmRxMNXw Considering he held the 1 button from bootup, he actually completely matched this run in timing from power on. This makes this *technically* the first console verified Master System TAS!

A Faster Run in RTA Timing (9.84)

It’s possible to make the game fade to the credits 2 frames faster than this TAS. You need to pause and unpause frame perfectly within about a 10 frame window near the glitch. This is a general glitch which will make any level fade out 2 frames faster. This is not used in the TAS because it causes your last input to be 2 frames later.
A button file of this 9.84 can be found here: Userfiles/Info/61050567104901897
Note: It’s quite possible that there’s an alternate method to trigger the glitch that fades out much faster. As I said in the brute forcing section, I found one with an almost identical setup that fades out 2 frames slower. I haven’t put heaps of effort into finding a faster fade out as that wouldn’t affect the TAS timing.

RAM Addresses

AddressDescription
0x0AB5,0x0AB4X Vel
0x0AF8,0x0AF7,0x0AF6X Position
0x0AB7,0x0AB6Y Velocity
0x0AF5,0x0AF3,0x0AF4Y Position
0x0A92HP
0x0A80i-frame timer
0x0ADDDObject count
0x0A84Level
0x0B95,0x0B85Boss HP

Final Thoughts

Thanks again to Revenged2, greysondn and Synahel for making sure the original game end glitch wasn’t lost. It was finding the post in the TASvideos forum where I actually found out about this amazing TAS game.
Thanks to cxrnxr and the rest of the RTA community for helping to find the faster credits warp
Thanks to EZscape for bringing more attention to this game and the Master System

ThunderAxe31: Judging.
ThunderAxe31: Setting to Delayed, in view of a possible improvement.
ThunderAxe31: Sadly, this movie fails to meet one important rule: a speed-oriented movie must beat all existing records. This rule is strict, since one of the main basis of this site is to represent TAS records. What's worse, is that those already existing records were played without using TASing tools, which means that this submission doesn't feature superhuman play.
Before proceeding with the verdict, I've considered the possibility to let the author replace the submitted movie with a version that triggers the ending 2 frames earlier, at the cost of having additional movie inputs, if that resulted faster than all known records. This could have been taken into consideration, in light of a recent precedent that preferred a movie that beats the game earlier by using more inputs, as opposed of a counterpart that beats the game later with less inputs. However, it turned out that the RTA community tied the faster ending movie as well. The author mentioned the hypothesis of triggering the ending even earlier, but he in the end he wasn't able to do so.
So in any case, this submission is rejected for failing to beat known records.
Beside the judgement itself, I have an additional note. First, I want to thank the author for making and for submitting this movie, despite the fact that it somehow could have appeared unacceptable from the start. Failing to beat known records is usually considered as an obvious mistake, however this is a special case because it opens to a new problematic scenario that has not really figured out yet. While the gameplay execution is considered trivial for this submitted movie, it isn't the case for the currently published movie, as it well featured superhuman gameplay and did beat all known records at the time. Submissions that get rejected for trivial gameplay are usually the result of a bad game choice, as it's the game itself which is not able to feature superhuman gameplay in any form. However, in this case we have a typical game that allows for developing and showcasing plenty of superhuman play, except when the specific game end glitch technique present in this submission is applied. As I mentioned at the beginning, beating all known records is considered a strict requirement, but I wonder if an exception should be raised for the usage of glitches that produce a trivial movie for games that would otherwise be suitable for featuring tool-assisted superplay. Otherwise, the currently published movie would remain perpetually not obsoleted, despite eventual discoveries that could improve it without making use of the trivial glitch used for this submission. The very same situation also applies for this game, so we're not talking about an isolated case and we may see more games falling into this limbo, in future.
In any case, the aforementioned problem doesn't concern this submission, as in itself doesn't affect the current judgment, so this matter should be duly discussed in the Ask a Judge thread, or in any future submission thread that will aim to obsolete the currently published movie, without making use of a specific technique that could render a whole movie trivial to match with real-time play attempts.

ThunderAxe31: After reading some opinions in the submission thread and discussing with other staff members, I decided to reconsider my current verdict for this submission and start over this judgement process.
ThunderAxe31: At first, I was sure that this submission shouldn't be accepted because it doesn't stand out from unassisted speedrun play. However, after extensive discussion with other staff members, I've come to change my mind about it. I used to think that a TAS should be considered as such only if it's impossible to be matched by real-time attempts, but in the end we can't really draw an objective borderline for defining what it's within human possibilities and what is beyond that, as we've seen over time speedrunners breaking the limit multiple times over history. And on the other hand, trying to enforce such requirement would also uselessly limitate TASing possibilities, as the TASing community did also repeatedly surpass the previous feats, to the point of reaching paradoxical results. In this specific case, the paradox consists in having optimized gameplay so much that it actually turned out easier for human play attempts, to the point that they could in fact match its timing.
So, since the staff come to agreement about allowing these kind of movies, the Movie Rules and Vault pages have been updated accordingly. Specifically, submitted movies are not required anymore to beat all known records, but just to at very least match them. Note that this rule change wasn't made just for the sake of accepting this submission, but rather because it was considered as more appropriate for its original intent.
Another important rule change was the introduction of a better definition of triviality. We want to restrict triviality on a game-by-game basis, depending on if a game can or not produce TASes that aren't too easy to make or to match in RTA. This basically means that even if a new submission results easy to make or to match in RTA, it will be accepted anyway if that game was previously known to feature at least one TASing record that wasn't trivial to match in new TASing attempts, with the tech knowledge available at that time. Please note that this new rule is referring to edge cases like GB The Adventures of Pinocchio, which isn't exactly the case for this submission, as it required some extensive research in order be made, as well as appreciable efforts in order to be matched by real-time attempts.
Lastly, I want to note that the requirement of being "distinguishable from the best real-time speedruns" was removed from Vault and implemented to Alternative and Stars tiers.
Now that we sorted out the technical matters about rules and policies, and come to the conclusion that this submission should and is acceptable, let's look closer at the movie itself. Even though this movie was considered to be matchable by real-time attempt by its own author, even before that it was submitted, I have to remark that this is a TAS in all aspects. It features proficient use of the TASing tools, as well as a deep understanding of the specific game mechanics and quirks. Also, a lot of efforts have been put in order to make it optimized as much as possible, given the currently available techniques and knowledge. So even though it's matchable by human play, it wasn't trivial to make. And now that the Movie Rules are officially not requiring anymore to beat all known records, there isn't any issue on the technical side to be found.
Regarding entertaining, we've seen mixed reactions from the audience. There have been a relatively enthusiastic response, but this doesn't change the fact that there is little to be watched, as gameplay visually resulted extremely short and basic.
For the rest, I have to note that we already have a published movie that beats the game by triggering the credits routine early via a glitch. Since the movie goal is the same, this submission has to obsolete it.
Accepting this submission for Vault and obsoleting the current game end glitch publication.
feos: Pub.
feos: Fixed rerecords.

Judge, Skilled player (1289)
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ViGadeomes wrote:
Could we consider the RTA runs starting on power-on ? then a TAS will be always faster on the menuing part when pressing pause to make the in-game loads faster.
A couple of frame-perfect inputs are not enough for making a run impossible to match with real-time attempts, see this video. Specifically, at 4:57 says: "they are extremely difficult to perform and usually require multiple frame-perfect button pressed to work". Yet, the techniques described in that video are well known to be viable for human players.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Blazephlozard
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I have a couple main thoughts on why rejection seems wrong that I don't think came up here 1. The time was first achieved in TAS, and later duplicated in real time thanks to the frame timings needed being discovered through TASing; so though it wasn't submitted yet (due to 8bit thoroughly brute forcing every possibility!), Zool in 21.61 beat all records at time of creation. (same situation as maxing Dragster's in-game time) 2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such In the end it doesn't reeeeally matter that much, but, I suppose the precedent is more important than the 8 second run. Though generally, "maxed" times will probably be this short.
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Blazephlozard wrote:
1. The time was first achieved in TAS, and later duplicated in real time thanks to the frame timings needed being discovered through TASing; so though it wasn't submitted yet (due to 8bit thoroughly brute forcing every possibility!), Zool in 21.61 beat all records at time of creation. (same situation as maxing Dragster's in-game time)
Nice thought, I'm adding it to the aspects I should keep in consideration.
Blazephlozard wrote:
2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such
What about the Pinocchio submission? Should that be accepted too, even if it's extremely trivial?
Blazephlozard wrote:
In the end it doesn't reeeeally matter that much, but, I suppose the precedent is more important than the 8 second run. Though generally, "maxed" times will probably be this short.
Well, it does matter, since The8bitbeast did put actual efforts for making this movie. But I agree that setting a precedent is more important, and that's why I'm grateful for this submission, even if it could remain rejected.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
EZGames69
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Blazephlozard wrote:
2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such
What about the Pinocchio submission? Should that be accepted too, even if it's extremely trivial?
how easy and fast can this be performed in real time?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
Noxxa
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Bloopiero wrote:
If we're talking purely about gameplay speed, surely the famous [3662] A2600 Dragster by MrWint, Omnigamer in 00:08.39 submission would also fall under the triviality umbrella? RTA runners had achieved the time in this movie long before it was ever made, and there were no questions about it back then.
The "famous" submission would actually be #5517: Omnigamer's A2600 Dragster in 00:08.49, which was submitted and published months before a properly verifiable 5.57 was recorded.
http://www.youtube.com/Noxxa <dwangoAC> This is a TAS (...). Not suitable for all audiences. May cause undesirable side-effects. May contain emulator abuse. Emulator may be abusive. This product contains glitches known to the state of California to cause egg defects. <Masterjun> I'm just a guy arranging bits in a sequence which could potentially amuse other people looking at these bits <adelikat> In Oregon Trail, I sacrificed my own family to save time. In Star trek, I killed helpless comrades in escape pods to save time. Here, I kill my allies to save time. I think I need help.
Blazephlozard
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Blazephlozard wrote:
2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such
What about the Pinocchio submission? Should that be accepted too, even if it's extremely trivial?
I don't think Pinocchio is the same situation since it's comparing a full game run to a maxed "game end glitch" run. Though Vault rules don't generally care about that difference, one can say that the full game run is still the fastest completion that follows submission rules, and therefore there's no need to accept the trivial one for record-keeping. This is comparing a non-maxed "game end glitch" to a now properly maxed "game end glitch" run, so since it's the same glitch, the non-maxed publication is now no longer beating all (comparable) records.
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EZGames69 wrote:
ThunderAxe31 wrote:
Blazephlozard wrote:
2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such
What about the Pinocchio submission? Should that be accepted too, even if it's extremely trivial?
how easy and fast can this be performed in real time?
If you click on the post I linked in there, you'll see that only 3 perfect-frame inputs are required in order to match the execution time. I dare say that most average speedrunners could manage to do that in less than 50 attempts. Now, compare that with the best SMB records, that consist in many more frame-perfect inputs, often much close to each other, and needed in many tech instances through almost ~5 minutes runs. If humans managed to do that, then matching the Pinocchio movie I linked would be obviously RTA-viable as well.
Blazephlozard wrote:
I don't think Pinocchio is the same situation since it's comparing a full game run to a maxed "game end glitch" run. Though Vault rules don't generally care about that difference, one can say that the full game run is still the fastest completion that follows submission rules, and therefore there's no need to accept the trivial one for record-keeping. This is comparing a non-maxed "game end glitch" to a now properly maxed "game end glitch" run, so since it's the same glitch, the non-maxed publication is now no longer beating all (comparable) records.
The point is that the Pinocchio submission is aiming to obsolete the published movie, because they're both aiming for fastest-completion. So it's not "comparing a full game run to a maxed game end glitch", but instead it's simply "comparing a slower run to a faster one". And this isn't just a matter of Vault being strict, because even for Moons we still have an additional requirement for categories to be accepted as separate branches, that is: featuring different movie contents. On speedrun.com each category is considered as independent from each other, but here instead we have a branching system of movie goals that, if necessary, may even obsolete each other or branch again.
Blazephlozard wrote:
2. There is a slower movie published, so publishing the maxed out time is important to Vault's mission of record-keeping. If there wasn't a previous movie, rejecting would make more sense, but as it is, the game has been maxed and deserves to be recorded as such
If a submitted movie is breaking a rule, it doesn't matter if there is an already published movie. A judgement should not depend on whatever there is already a published movie or not, but instead on whatever the previous judgement precedents are, which is a different thing.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Alyosha
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There has to be a better solution here then to have the 'published ' run be the slower one, that doesn't make sense.
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Alyosha wrote:
There has to be a better solution here then to have the 'published ' run be the slower one, that doesn't make sense.
I agree to that we have to figure a better solution for that, but first we have to make sure if this submission is or isn't trivial, which is a separate matter.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Alyosha
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How will that effect anything?
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I'm considering the idea of reverting my current judgment, that's what I mean.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
EZGames69
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What do you need to be convinced of in order to revert it?
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
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EZGames69 wrote:
What do you need to be convinced of in order to revert it?
You need to convince me that: 1) This submission is a speed-oriented movie that beats all existing records 2) This submission isn't too trivial for being considered as an example of superhuman play Regarding the first issue, Blazephlozard gave a great argument in this post. Specifically, it's about the fact that the submitted TAS has been tied by RTA attempts after that it was made. So, technically speaking, the TAS has been the actual record from the start. About the second issue, I simply think that we could draw a more relaxed borderline for defining triviality, so that TASes could be considered acceptable even when it's clear that they could be matched by human attempts. This would mean that some judgements that I used as precedents should be revised. For example: #5218: FatRatKnight's NES Overlord in 03:57.34 If you think about it, there are a lot of TASes, especially A2600 ones, that can probably be tied with RTA attempts. No one did it yet just there aren't enough people interested in trying challenge them, for the moment. Also, the fact that a TAS was tied by an RTA attempt doesn't necessarily mean that the TAS was trivial, since the RTA runner could have managed to tie the same timing by implementing new techs or optimizations that weren't discovered by the author of the TAS. In any case, the movie rules are considering the triviality about a game as a whole, and not about specific TASes that could be made on them. So my reasons for rejecting this submission were more about not beating known records and because of some precedents I followed. But lately I'm beginning to see that both these could be seen from a different perspective. I just need to discuss with other user and with the rest of the staff, for making sure.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
EZGames69
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ThunderAxe31 wrote:
EZGames69 wrote:
What do you need to be convinced of in order to revert it?
You need to convince me that: 1) This submission is a speed-oriented movie that beats all existing records 2) This submission isn't too trivial for being considered as an example of superhuman play
The first issue I think needs to be re-looked at for cases like this. I don't have the authority to really say anything on this so I'll leave it up to staff. As for the 2nd part, I will link EZScape's video of him trying to learn and pull off the trick. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YEC5Qz7CNs If this really was trivial to achieve then it shouldn't take effort to learn and perform this trick consistently. EDIT: I even have tried to pull off the glitch myself and still havent achieved it. I am doing my best to understand how it work, but I believe the effort needed to learn how to do it is enough evidence that this is not trivial at all. EDIT 2: I managed to get it by doing the easier jump method but I have not been able to get it the way the TAS does it, it is incredibly frame perfect to get. EDIT 3: I got it exactly how it is in the TAS, but only after trying to get it after 30 tries. I was then able to get it every 5-15 tries afterwards. The fact that so many people can get this time doesnt make it Trivial, because it just a frame perfect trick that is short enough that people can try and try it again until they get it. If it was Trivial, then I would be getting this trick consistently with every try.
[14:15] <feos> WinDOES what DOSn't 12:33:44 PM <Mothrayas> "I got an oof with my game!" Mothrayas Today at 12:22: <Colin> thank you for supporting noble causes such as my feet MemoryTAS Today at 11:55 AM: you wouldn't know beauty if it slapped you in the face with a giant fish [Today at 4:51 PM] Mothrayas: although if you like your own tweets that's the online equivalent of sniffing your own farts and probably tells a lot about you as a person MemoryTAS Today at 7:01 PM: But I exert big staff energy honestly lol Samsara Today at 1:20 PM: wouldn't ACE in a real life TAS just stand for Actually Cease Existing
g0goTBC
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As an RTA WR holder of this game, I'll give my point of view on that. For the 9.88s strat (the one used in the TAS), it took me 10 minutes to do, 5 of them was about setting my emulator and the recording. In my opinion, 5 minutes is among the fastest people that people have took to get the strat once, as I do know that some runners took multiple hours to get it for the first time. Is that as trivial as some people think it is? I don't think so. For the 9.84 strat, it took me 5 hours to get. While I do know that some people may also consider this "trivial", keep in mind that while doing roughly the same inputs for the 9.88 strat, you need to do a perfect pause-unpause at 50 FPS, which is really, really hard to do consistently. All that being said though, if you want to go by the "trivial" point of view from a TASing perspective, yes, it's trivial. just press the buttons on the frames that RTA runners use for their setup, and voilà, you have yourself a TAS that ties the RTA WR. If you want to look cool, you could record an RTA run, trim down the inputs, and you've got yourself a TAS with 1 rerecord. But keep in mind that this setup was found while TASing, not by messing around RTA. It's a glitch that seems to be really unlikely to happen during a playthrough, much more unlikely than the method that is used in the current publication. So is this trivia? From an RTA and technical standpoint, no; but from a TAS execution standpoint, yes. Choose whichever definition of "trivial" you choose to go for, as it would pretty much give the answer as for if this movie deserves its publication or not.
Banjo-Tooie runner, DTC 8, 9, 10, and 11 winner, but more importantly, "When's GR?" Current projects: Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge - 100% (50 minutes) Mario Party 1 - All Boards (est: 4-6 hours) Mario Party 3 - All Minigames (est: 40-50 minutes, not sure) "Ooooh, I saved some more subpixels. Look at those sweet subpixels. You can't look at them, because they're subpixels, but they look so good." - The8bitbeast "It's as if I knew what was going to happen. It's as if I had the plan written in front of me and I was reading it. I mean, I do have it in front of me, but I'm not reading it." -garagedooropener
Memory
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honestly the whole process of research is what makes TASing difficult to begin with. If you already know the inputs then obviously TASing this outcome would be easy
[16:36:31] <Mothrayas> I have to say this argument about robot drug usage is a lot more fun than whatever else we have been doing in the past two+ hours
[16:08:10] <BenLubar> a TAS is just the limit of a segmented speedrun as the segment length approaches zero
g0goTBC
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But 8bit found that strat as he was messing around to get a deeper understanding of the mechanics for his TASing, could that part of him doing the research make it not trivial from a technical standpoint?
Banjo-Tooie runner, DTC 8, 9, 10, and 11 winner, but more importantly, "When's GR?" Current projects: Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge - 100% (50 minutes) Mario Party 1 - All Boards (est: 4-6 hours) Mario Party 3 - All Minigames (est: 40-50 minutes, not sure) "Ooooh, I saved some more subpixels. Look at those sweet subpixels. You can't look at them, because they're subpixels, but they look so good." - The8bitbeast "It's as if I knew what was going to happen. It's as if I had the plan written in front of me and I was reading it. I mean, I do have it in front of me, but I'm not reading it." -garagedooropener
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Thank you for your insight, g0go. I have an important question though: who was the first to discover the 9.84 strat? I'm asking because The8bitbeast uploaded the movie file after that it was officially achieved by RTA runs, so I think I'm missing something.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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I found the 9.88 strat. I TASed it then I was also the first one to replicate it RTA. I also found the 9.84 strat. I made a tutorial on it, then someone else did it RTA
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The8bitbeast wrote:
I found the 9.88 strat. I TASed it then I was also the first one to replicate it RTA. I also found the 9.84 strat. I made a tutorial on it, then someone else did it RTA
Excellent. Now I only need to wait confirmation from feos, about what are the actual policies for determining triviality, since I seem to have found an inconsistency with this judgement.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Arc
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Are you defining 'trivial' as a movie that can be done without tool assistance? I'd call that 'reproducible' rather than 'trivial.' In theory every TAS is reproducible, just with varying degrees of difficulty (this one is easier than others). The triviality rule exists to filter out movies that are so straightforward, obvious, and easy to complete that they're not interesting. Like if this movie were just 21 seconds of holding right, it would be trivial. But I'd say that it's not trivial because it requires special non-obvious knowledge of the game to complete it in 21 seconds.
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The rule about triviality and standing out from unassisted play is about acceptability of games, not movies. It's logical suicide to declare a game trivial retroactively, after there was already a movie that clearly showed the game was fine, and then to try solving the artificial problems that come arise. When Pinocchio happened I didn't dig deep enough to realize this, now it's kinda clear. The submission was beating the unassisted records when it was created, and there's no rule saying "if you get tied by RTA before you're published, you're rejected". Getting beaten by RTA during that period would indeed be a problem, because it's known improvements. But so far there are none. This improvement doesn't stand out from unassisted speedrun anymore, but once again, it's a game requirement, not a movie requirement. Let alone legitimate improvements to published movies.
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Post subject: Unrejecting.
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Thank you for confirming, feos. Also thank you to anyone else who contributed to the discussion. This submission is now being re-judged... I need to handle a different matter now. As it was already mentioned, we can accept movie files that aim for the fastest real-time completion, rather than shortest input length, so both are acceptable. The8bitbeast, which one would you prefer to use? In my opinion, the file that aims for the RTA-oriented timing record is more notable for both record keeping purposes and for technical value. Still, the decision is up to the author. I also have a new question for the audience: how much did you find this movie entertaining, and why?
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
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I was expecting to have such a rules-defining discussion from the moment this was published and wasn't let down. Seems like we've come to a good conclusion! I think the RTA-oriented timing record is more interesting too. And completely destroying a game by skidding on a cliff is extremely novel. Though I do pine for a non-glitch TAS now after remembering all the gameplay that got cut out, haha.
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Would that Pinocchio run be accepted then since the game was accepted before? Rather than "acceptability of games, not movies", it may make more sense for it to be "acceptability of categories". New game end glitches can definitely retroactively make a fastest-completion trivial. This movie, well, I would say it's not entertaining. Particularly because there's no music during the credits...