This topic is for the purpose of discussing #6972: DarkShamilKhan, ParadaxeTH, WST & marzojr's Genesis Knuckles in Sonic the Hedgehog "no zips" in 15:04.28

Going to need an author check / clarification as there's a lot of conflicting information: Author's nickname field: DarkShamilKhan & Shiro Paradox Submission Mentions: DarkShamilKhan, Shiro Paradox, WST, marzojr, JXQ & Aglar YouTube Subtitles Mention: "Played by me and 4 more" YouTube Description Mentions: Me (Shiro), DarkShamilKhan, WST, marzojr and jqx (typo of JXQ) To my understanding that's 5 authors (possibly 6) and only 2 are listed. (Scrapped Aglar's name since it's a trick that's mentioned, not any input provided) ----- Author procceded to update the nickname field after I pointed it out.

Looks good to me, I don’t see any issues with this TAS, pretty fun to watch. Yes vote Also, I will point out, in the encode, the boss fight’s music glitched out and a bunch of frames are dropped while spindashing in Final Zone. I’m dumb it was pause manipulation to get eggman to spawn faster Good job tho, it was entertaining to watch!

it's a pretty nice run but it kinda bothers me to see a "no zips" category while you go thru a wall in Labyrinth 2 (7:50 ) i'll abstain to vote for that but it'd be a nice yes vote for me

it's a pretty nice run but it kinda bothers me to see a "no zips" category while you go thru a wall in Labyrinth 2 (7:50 ) i'll abstain to vote for that but it'd be a nice yes vote for me

I checked myself. No zips were done there. There's a bit of ceiling you can fall through to get back inbounds. Here's a bit of game knowledge about collision with tiles. The game uses 2 different methods of keeping you out of tiles. Zipping when you're on the ground, and terrain ejection when you're in the air. Neither one works in opposite conditions. Zipping is the one this run aims to avoid. It pushes you the opposite direction of where you're going with actual speed. In normal senarios this does work fine, but when you initiate it while already inside a wall you get ejected out at ridiculous speeds. Terrain ejection however simply displaces you horizontally (ie without any speed). It always pushes you right if you're spot where the game would otherwise not be able to decide which way you should go. This is why that stair clip works. If you happen to end up inside a tile while in the air you get horizontally locked in place.

So I feel zips really aren't the way to show off a hack like this, with zips it feels not all that different to sonic. Admittedly I'm not in love with "X character in Sonic game they're not from" hacks to begin with and there have been some way more interesting hacks in recent years. However until we start receiving some of those, we're kinda stuck with what we got. I'd honestly lean towards obsoleting zips with no zips if voting was better but as is it's kinda borderline. As totally separate branches... it's very eh to me...

I'd honestly lean towards obsoleting zips with no zips if voting was better but as is it's kinda borderline. As totally separate branches... it's very eh to me...

If you ask me you'd be better off in the long run if you made a seperate branch. I'm in the process of making an improved zips run.

I see no reason to publish this branch. The appeal of a "no zips" run with vanilla Sonic is that it presents the game as it was "intended" to be played. When you add Knuckles into the mix, the game is already inherently broken; Knuckles gliding across stages is in the same realm of unintentional as clipping to the exit. I have no idea how to end this post. Cat kiss.

Yeah to me this branch is redundant with this hack when compared to the vanilla game. I'd rather see the vanilla game "no zips" get destroyed and not a character replacement rom hack, which just knuckles on through. Abstaining the vote.

I see absolutely no reason to have both zips and no zips for this hack. There's way too much redundancy between Sonic and Knux and Tails in these hacks/vanilla as it is. In fact we want to transition away from "character in vanilla game" hacks to more dynamic and extensive hacks. To the people that don't like "no zips", what about zips? Do you just not like this hack in general or would you prefer zips?

No zips over zips, definitely. The appeal of using a different character is completely lost when the majority of the run is spent with the character offscreen and the camera scrolling incredibly quickly. Ideally, though, a level hack comes in the future and obsoletes the character hacks in general.

Having watched all relevant TASes (Sonic 1 zips, Knux in Sonic 1 zips as well as Sonic 1 zipless and this TAS), I can say that at least for zips, there's just way too much redundancy between the base game and the hack. Matter of fact, some of the zips are practically the exact same. Zipless isn't much better, though, but at least it has more merit IMO. For instance, Knuckles skips over Marble Zone completely by flying over the stages instead of having to go through the zone normally. So in the end, I'd much prefer seeing a zipless TAS for this hack instead of a zips TAS, and thus this TAS should obsolete the zips TAS we currently have published. However, these "character-in-vanilla game" hacks are just not interesting at all IMO, and would much prefer seeing a Sonic 1 ROM hack that actually changes the levels instead of keeping the exact same levels from the base game.

However, these "character-in-vanilla game" hacks are just not interesting at all IMO, and would much prefer seeing a Sonic 1 ROM hack that actually changes the levels instead of keeping the exact same levels from the base game.

------------------------ I understand but that won't be accepted on tasvideos.org. Currently Kaan55 is doing any% speedrun. Zipless is entertaining than Zip ones. Just look Sonic 3 and Amy, the level design is the same. But you have amy and her abilities. And in the latest run. It is the same thing. Zips, unless you have a camhack emulator or a video to see what is the character doing.

I understand but that won't be accepted on tasvideos.org.

One, don't speak for the Judges. Two, you're wrong, any hack TAS has the possibility of being accepted. In fact, character hacks tend to be less well-received than hacks that actually drastically change the game, since for the most part "different character in the same levels" adds nothing of real value to the site. The character hacks we currently have were published at a time where our rules were much less defined than they are now, and should not be taken as precedents because of it.

Apologies mate as I thought it wasn't accepted before. Now I know

To the people that don't like "no zips", what about zips? Do you just not like this hack in general or would you prefer zips?

Speaking for myself, I do not like this category of hacks in general. The difference between the characters is not all that big in casual gameplay, the difference gets less discernible in TAS gameplay, and it essentially disappears when zipping is allowed. I can imagine that for several (but not all) categories of S3&K, doing the same goal but with a different character would be downvoted as "not different enough to be entertaining", and the same principle applies here.

I'd much prefer seeing a zipless TAS for this hack instead of a zips TAS, and thus this TAS should obsolete the zips TAS we currently have published.

I like this approach.

Checking the history, I find it interesting that the run for "Tails in Sonic 1" was initially rejected for being too similar to "Knuckles in Sonic 1" (as detailed here). And that was before the discovery of several zip tricks that made the newer versions of those runs more similar to each other. Considering the current Tails run uses heavy zipping, is there a case for this zipless submission to obsolete both Knuckles-with-zips and Tails-with-zips?

I watched the movie and I have some questions. 1. In GHZ 2 0:02 - I'm sure taking the speedshoes + the lower route is more faster than taking the upper route, I saw that you slowed down a little and taked the loop, was not faster skip him jumping upside? 2. The movie claims that is used Predict Animals script but I didn't saw animal manipulation in the capsules (perfect rng maybe?). In one hand Sonic games aims for IGT but on the other hand it's good trying to save every possible frame if it's possible. 3. Marble 1 0:09 - Climbing is more faster than landing here, remember when Knuckles lands he has immobility for 15 frames, with climbing you avoid that, you did this way the rest of the movie, maybe you missed this spot? 4. Marble 2 0:03 / 0:09 - Well... you did the same here at 0:03 but no at 0:09, even at normal speed you can see that is sighly faster. 5. Marble 3 boss - I don't know if it's because of Knuckles' jumping force penalty, but I remember Aglar fighting the boss with perfect frame hits. 6. JXQ was actively involved in the project? If not I think you guys need to revisit his stages, JXQ's movies are a little old and his input can be outdated. 7. Remember that Knuckles can use the slope glitch in every level using the monitors, I think you can skip Spring Yard 1 activating the slope glitch with the speedshoes monitor and glide jump to the sky using the badniks down here. Link to video 8. Is possible to skip robotnik cutscene in SBZ2 Link to video In my opinion, the run feels rushed but is good enough for a first try, Maybe you should check my points and verify they are valid and then you can resync the movie, you can ask the judges for a delay in the verdict if you need to fix these things.

Evil_3D 1. After posting this run, and now you reminded me, I said to Shiro too and he said we will obsolete it now. 2.That might be my script mistake. 3. I didn't knew that, I will advise Shiro to see this zone again. 4. I can't answer 5. I know this, I think it is possible by using Marzo and wst strategy. 6. JXQ's input were added. His name was added because his inputs were added. Me and Shiro will be seeing this soon. 7. Huh? I knew about the slope glitch in this hack. My request to the judge. Can we ask for time for improvements.

I appreciate the efforts here to keep the author list comprehensive, but I'd actually prefer to not be included in this (or any future) author list, even if some entire levels from my previous run are used in the finished product. Though I suspect as Evil_3D said, that they are improvable even without zips since a lot of Sonic engine knowledge has been gained by the community since this project. Still I look forward to checking this out later today. (And also exciting to hear kaan is improving this with zips!)

I watched this side by side with S1 zips, S1 zipless, and Knuckles in S1 zips. It's hard to tell where the most difference is: between this and zipless Knuckles, or between zipped Knuckles and zipless Sonic. Even though some zips with Knuckles are different from Sonic, and some levels in zipless Knuckles are similar to Sonic, I agree that the zipless approach allows us to see more of the game and more of the character movement and mechanics. I'm not sure if a new zipped run with Knuckles is gonna be more entertaining than this. And I don't think they can co-exist, because the nature of this hack is less than ideal in general: hacks with different levels would be preferred, as that introduces something we haven't seen before, instead of mixing up the same things in slightly different amounts..

Hey, guys. Here is fixed gmv. https://www.mediafire.com/file/f5w6yxug5hotswh/S1K_%252828%2529.gmv/file

Sorry for the delay! I've replaced the file. Two things for future reference: 1. Only Judges can replace submission files 2. It is much better to use our site Userfiles to upload improvements

Sorry for the delay! I've replaced the file. Two things for future reference: 1. Only Judges can replace submission files 2. It is much better to use our site Userfiles to upload improvements

Ok, I got it. Thanks