Submission Text Full Submission Page

Goals

Lode Runner for the NES has a speed setting, that can be accessed by entering the level select and pressing select + A or B to set the speed up and down. The speed amount setting is never visible on screen but can be monitored using ram address 0x00E5
This movie aims for fastest completion time on the fastest speed setting, using the level select to skip the end level animations. Using level select in this way greatly lowers the total completion time (about 10 seconds per level for 49 levels) while not actually affecting the game play. Level select is accessed at any time by pressing select. Select is only pressed after a level completion, which from input observation is a non-subjective goal. It would be the first input frame after leaving the screen sufficiently to cause level-end lag frames. For more discussion about using this level select behavior see the Ask a Judge discussion thread
While we do not have a completed TAS of regular speed (I did a rough test run before moving on to full speed), I can say this goal does differ in noticeable ways compared to a theoretical optimized regular speed TAS. Specifically, digging is just as slow in fast mode. As such, may strategies involve going significantly out of the way to avoid digging, since it is almost always faster. A regular speed TAS would involve significantly more digging in comparison. Also, this game is laggy, and can drastically slow down a fast mode TAS. Compared to regular speed, there are many sub-optimal routes (in terms of number of steps) that are faster because they avoid lag. The biggest lag contributor is enemy route calculation which is particularly slow when there is a ladder in the path from the enemy to the player.
I'll leave it up to the judges but a fast mode TAS may need to be considered a separate category from a regular speed TAS.

Tech

Climbing through enemies

Hit detection is weird in this game, particularly on ladders. Depending on the situation it is possible to stand still on a ladder, have the enemy pass through you, and at the right time, start climbing without ever being touched. This strategy is not easy, but is possible RTA viable (in theory, but in reality probably is not a good risk/reward at least on the later levels). This cannot always be done, it depends on the level and ladder if there is a spot on the ladder where this can be done.

Walking on enemies

You can walk and even climb on enemies. In almost all cases, it is a good way to get killed. But with TAS precision it is possible to walk on an enemy as they are walking. In a few places in the TAS, this was used for some small time savings
Also utilized is having an enemy fall through a fake floor, and walking over them at the precise time to cross over the fake floor. This is particularly useful in level 18 to save significant time.

RNG

This game is not just "50 short TASes". The global timer affects two elements of randomness, enemy spawn position when they die, and number of squares they will hold on to gold before dropping it (observed by ram addresses 0x0671-0x0673). Many levels depend on precise spawns and gold drops in order to save time. Level 1 and Level 11 are notable examples of manipulating enemies to move gold into more favorable positions. Unfortunately, the RNG needs to be manipulated by delaying the completion of previous levels. This is a huge pain and also excludes some small time savers due to the manipulation time being greater than the total time savings.

Lag

There is a lot of lag, including even in the level begin/end. Often frames are delayed to avoid lag at the end of the level or to avoid lag in the opening screen scroll. In addition, there is random lag throughout, often resulting in seemingly sub-optimal paths that are overall faster due to lag. Also, even if there is no RNG to manipulate, a level can be completed in significantly different times just based on the random lag. Delay frames are often introduced just to save a few extra frames on random lag. This was by far, the most miserable aspect to making this TAS

Erasing Gold

If an enemy falls into a pit, they will release their gold above them. If the square above them is a dug hole, they will not be able to place the gold there. If this happens, the gold simply goes away and the player no longer needs to collect it. This was used in Level 32.

Samsara: Get a lode of this runner! Judging!

adelikat: Cancelling, to pursue further improvements, see forum for details.


TASVideoAgent
They/Them
Moderator
Joined: 8/3/2004
Posts: 15544
Location: 127.0.0.1
This topic is for the purpose of discussing #7154: adelikat's NES Lode Runner in 18:15.20
Skilled player (1176)
Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China
I remember Takanawa has uploaded a run in 2015. But too bad I found he has deleted his movie. The nico number is sm27702953. The movie which I download is 30fps. Frames @65243. In some stages, this submitted run is faster. It means Takanawa's run can still be improved.
Post subject: Re: #7154: adelikat's NES Lode Runner in 18:15.2
Player (26)
Joined: 8/29/2011
Posts: 1206
Location: Amsterdam
What an odd version of the game. The level layouts look familiar, but on other systems the graphics are more tall rectangular tiles (instead of square ones) so it fits on one screen and doesn't require horizontal scrolling. The game strikes me as much harder if part of the level is off-screen all the time. Except in a TAS, of course. Also, yes vote.
Former player
Joined: 4/24/2015
Posts: 1
Location: Vietnam
Great, I like this games. If there have more time, please add TAS for Lode Runner 2. I vote yes
Player (52)
Joined: 4/1/2016
Posts: 292
Location: Cornelia Castle
With sound being all I have (since I am totally blind), I am giving this a no vote. The music is very repetitive. While it seems like a lot of work was put into this, the music and sounds don't make this TAS interesting for me.
DJ Incendration Believe in Michael Girard and every speedrunner and TASer!
g0goTBC
He/Him
Experienced player (750)
Joined: 6/11/2018
Posts: 110
Yes vote from me. I wonder... could the speed setting be considered a dev code? The fact that there's no visual indication of what it does while you're on the main menu and the weird combination of inputs that is used to do such a thing makes me believe that it wasn't meant to be used.
Banjo-Tooie runner, DTC 8, 9, 10, and 11 winner, but more importantly, "When's GR?" Current projects: Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge - 100% (50 minutes) Mario Party 1 - All Boards (est: 4-6 hours) Mario Party 3 - All Minigames (est: 40-50 minutes, not sure) "Ooooh, I saved some more subpixels. Look at those sweet subpixels. You can't look at them, because they're subpixels, but they look so good." - The8bitbeast "It's as if I knew what was going to happen. It's as if I had the plan written in front of me and I was reading it. I mean, I do have it in front of me, but I'm not reading it." -garagedooropener
Site Admin, Skilled player (1250)
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Char­gogg­a­gogg­man­chaugg­a­gogg­chau­bun­a­gung­a­maugg
We learned about it from the manual.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Player (163)
Joined: 10/13/2015
Posts: 10
I uploaded the movie file mtvf1 metioned for your info. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72622635263089159
Samsara
She/They
Senior Judge, Site Admin, Expert player (2108)
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
Takanawa wrote:
http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72622635263089159
Truncated version of the above file, as both runs end at different points: User movie #72623402701906978 I'll take a closer look at both runs later today. From a quick skim, though: adelikat's has about a second's worth more of loading lag over the course of the run. I haven't determined if this is an emulation difference or a version difference yet. Given the time discrepancy, it seems Takanawa has the majority of faster routes, though adelikat also has a good amount of faster routes of his own. I watched up to Stage 14, and after accounting for the extra loading lag, adelikat is actually ahead by a handful of frames at that point. Looks like the majority of route differences are later on. It doesn't seem easy at all to just splice the faster stages from both runs into a completely new one, so... This is going to end up being a fairly complicated judgement, huh?
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family. Now infrequently posting on Bluesky
warmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Emulator Coder
Joined: 3/9/2004
Posts: 4588
Location: In his lab studying psychology to find new ways to torture TASers and forumers
This seems like it shouldn't be possible at all. Nice job!
Warning: Opinions expressed by Nach or others in this post do not necessarily reflect the views, opinions, or position of Nach himself on the matter(s) being discussed therein.
Skilled player (1176)
Joined: 5/11/2011
Posts: 427
Location: China
Takanawa wrote:
I uploaded the movie file mtvf1 metioned for your info. http://tasvideos.org/userfiles/info/72622635263089159
Thank you for your share. Good job, you have improved it. In some stages, did you cost some frames for manipulate bombman of next next next stages? I found your new run is slower than your old run in the early stages until stage 14. edit: desync on normal rom at stage 17, sync on rom: Lode Runner (J) [b2].nes
adelikat
He/Him
Emulator Coder, Site Developer, Site Owner, Expert player (3570)
Joined: 11/3/2004
Posts: 4754
Location: Tennessee
It's unfortunate this movie wasn't uploaded to WIPs before. This situation is a great example of how it can really help with collaboration and getting the best quality TASes to exist. Had this been available, I would have used it throughout the TAS I made. Unfortunately this game isn't one you can simply splice levels together since the lag is so random, as is the enemy behavior. Thanks to Samsara, who made a spreadsheet showing the level by level comparisons. My movie was faster in 17 levels, Takanawa for 33. The best of both runs would big a good deal faster than either of these runs. Unfortunately it is going to be a complete redo, and it doesn't really save time to have these movies as an example. I'm cancelling this submission because I do not want it published. I'll work on an improved run, though it might be some time before I can get to it. Takanawa, if you want to work on it instead, or collaborate, let me know. If you take this on, please submit though, or at least upload to WIPs again, so the rest of the community can enjoy the run and learn from it. mtvf1, I was able to get Takanawa's run to sync on FCEUX 2.2.3 with the (J) version (good dump), did not desync in level 17.
It's hard to look this good. My TAS projects
TASVideosGrue
They/Them
Joined: 10/1/2008
Posts: 2784
Location: The dark corners of the TASVideos server
om, nom, nom... crunchy!
Player (163)
Joined: 10/13/2015
Posts: 10
I'm tied up, so you can use my movie file as you like.