There are so many great Mario games with submissions here at TASVideos.
However, the collection has not been complete without the greatest Mario game of all time*.
Until now...
*Opinions expressed are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of TASVideos.org.
Game objectives
Full-completion (100%: Maximum points)
Plays on Hardest Difficulty
Emulator used: JPC-rr 11.2 (Modified for added mouse support)
What the heck is this?
Mario Teaches Typing is an MS-DOS game made in 1991, which finally brought Mario to the PC. Many parents bought this for their (soon-to-be disappointed) children. It consists of four levels:
An overworld side-scroller, where players type letters to break bricks and stomp koopa troopas. This is most definitely the slowest-typing level in the game as you have to wait until the next letter appears on the screen before you can type it. The TAS ensures the most letters are typed by typing them on the first frame possible. You may notice there are some floating blocks with letters. Typing those plays a short animation of Mario collecting some coins, which gives human players a breather, but would only slow down a TAS.
Mario dives into the water... and doesn't do much else. The limits are off on this level as the game lets you type up to six letters per frame. The typing here is done so fast, the game doesn't have time to animate Mario or update any of the statistics. The TAS uses the keyboard buffer to keep three typed-keys ahead of the current frame, ensuring the maximum number of keys are typed for this level.
Heading underground, the player now types old and outdated sporting trivia. The typing speed here is capped, though not as badly as in level 1. What slows this level down are all the screen transitions. As in the first level, there are the "bonus" keys you can type for coin-collecting, which are summarily ignored. Once again, the TAS ensures the maximum number of keys are typed by typing them on the first possible frame.
Coming to the final level, the game eschews any illusion of being a typical Mario game, and you face the ultimate boss: 10 minutes of typing gibberish. Luckily, we're back to typing six letters per frame, allowing the TAS to whip through the letters. The TAS exceeds 2,000 words-per-minute (WPM), and you can see the final digit appear every once-in-a-while at the very top-left of the screen. Eventually, the game craps out and decides it can't handle keeping track anymore.
Okay, but why?
Apart from the fact it's one of the few Mario games left without a TAS, I mainly did this to build my lua-scripting abilities, specifically memory searching and input injection while running. The rerecord count is accurate, as all four levels were entirely run using lua scripts.
Is it publishable?
Of course! Any TAS is publishable if it makes moons!
No, seriously, is it publishable?
Yeah, if you're actually still engaged after watching 26 minutes of typing, you're either super-amazing or need to seek professional help. So, the real question is, does this qualify for the Vault? I think that can be answered two different ways. If this game is considered an educational game, then it doesn't qualify. The reasons for that have already been hashed out at length, and I certainly don't want to reopen that can of worms. However, if this game is considered a game of manual dexterity and skill, similar to StepMania, then it stands a chance.
So, not likely, right?
I'm not holding my breath. Even if this isn't published, it was a great learning opportunity. I couldn't have finished the QFG2 TAS or helped out on the SQ1 TAS without what I learned here, so the time spent was well worth it. I don't think typing games are all automatically destined to be rejected, and I am really hoping someone does a Typing of the Dead TAS in the future.
Happy April Fools!
Rise from your grave!
Wow. I never expected to revisit this submission, but a recent change to the rules has removed the ban on educational games, giving this submission new life. Now, the only barrier to publication is a nice under-the-table 'contribution' to the judges' discretionary spending account is to show this TAS passes the 'triviality rule'. I will present my arguments below for why I believe this TAS is publishable under the rules, and leave it for the judges to decide if they agree.
Here's the triviality rule in its entirety:
The gameplay needs to stand out from unassisted play, and must not be seen as trivial. Note that a game is considered trivial until proven otherwise. If getting perfect times everywhere is challenging, such a game is considered acceptable. If a game was considered trivial but a technique is found later that makes TASing it challenging, that game becomes acceptable.
Starting with the first sentence, "The gameplay needs to stand out from unassisted play". I'm going to assume there's no argument that the gameplay in this TAS is markedly different from unassisted play, performing feats only achievable by tools. That said, I'm happy to add my reasons for believing this if there's any question on this point.
I'll circle back to the second half of the sentence, "and must not be seen as trivial" in a moment. Instead, the last sentence actually gives us a way around having to figure out if the gameplay is 'trivial'. "If a game was considered trivial but a technique is found later that makes TASing it challenging, that game becomes acceptable." In other words, any 'trivial' game is acceptable as long as TASing it is challenging. This is where I'll make my first point:
TASing this game was challenging
This TAS required over 224,000 frame perfect inputs. This was entirely unfeasible manually and could only be practically done by creating automated scripts. Furthermore, as the levels behave differently, each required unique strategies and scripts to ensure the typing was optimal.
Level 1 is as you might expect from a game like this. Look for the memory state to acknowledge the typing of the previous letter, and then type the next one.
Level 2 and 4 remove all limitations on the speed of input, meaning that multiple keys are accepted per frame. This means that the strategy used in Level 1 does not work here, and a completely different strategy is required to make sure the script is keeping the input flowing just ahead of what the system can accept. A further complication involves determining what text is coming next. The levels begin pointed to a random starting point in a random preset list of words/letters in memory, and steps through them. When it hits the end of the list, it sets the pointer to the beginning of the same list and goes through it again. TASing these levels requires determining where the starting point is and figuring out when to loop around to the beginning.
Level 3 throws in another curveball. In addition to tracking the location of the pointer and knowing when to loop back to the beginning, now the script also has to know when to stop typing because the game has hit a transition screen and then know to begin again on the first possible frame once the transition is complete. This requires additional research, development and testing to ensure optimal play entering or leaving any transition screen.
It took many hours over the course of three months to build, refine and validate each level's script to ensure the output was optimal. feos wrote in judging #6345: MarbleousDave's NES Duck Hunt "All levels" in 1:15:12.15, "It is not a superplay puzzle to look at a memory address and press the button the frame before it changes, once, a hundred times, or a billion times." If every level had the same simplistic logic as Level 1, then I would agree this would be a simple TAS to make. However, given all the additional logic required to TAS levels 2, 3 and 4, I am confident in saying this TAS falls outside those bounds, and that TASing this game is definitely 'challenging'.
What about the game being 'trivial'?
As I mentioned above, the fourth sentence in the rule states that if TASing the game is considered challenging, then even 'trivial' games are acceptable. If you agree with my reasoning above that this is a challenging game to TAS, then we needn't go any further.
However, in case you disagree with the above, and believe that TASing the game is not challenging, this TAS can still be accepted if the gameplay is not 'trivial', as per sentence #1. Unfortunately, there's no definition provided for what constitutes 'trivial' gameplay, so I looked at a few online dictionaries and the closest thing I can find for what I think was intended was 'Simple', perhaps overly so. (Judges, please let me know if this is incorrect and I'll update the submission accordingly.) In this case, I could certainly see an argument that the gameplay in this TAS is 'trivial'. There is only one way to get an optimal run, and that is by hitting the right buttons at the right time. There is one unique solution, and there is no other strategy that could be taken. And I would fully accept that this would keep a non-challenging TAS from being published to vault except that there are already precedents of such runs being accepted. This leads me to my second point:
Games of similar triviality are already in the vault tier
Now, the games mentioned above are multi-player as compared to this one which is single-player. While I don't think that factors into whether the gameplay is any less trivial (especially because I find the computer player actually detracts from the quality of the TAS), I'll address it here just in case. [3480] GB Boxxle by Jigwally in 4:58:50.20 and [3620] GB Boxxle II by Jigwally in 3:26:07.54 are single-player games where the number of moves for the optimal solution are widely known and are easily solved for. Optimal Boxxle gameplay, therefore, is no less trivial than a typing game. There is a known optimal solution to each level, and it is simply a matter of pushing the right buttons at the right time to achieve it. Again, the fact that it is more fun to play or watch Boxxle is irrelevant at this tier. The gameplay has one optimal path and one way to achieve it.
So, for the last time, is it publishable?
I strongly believe it is. Given that this TAS was impossible to do manually, and because of all the effort required to handle the different gameplay behaviors of each level, this was a suitably challenging TAS to create. And, as per the rules, as long as it is challenging to TAS, a game is publishable. However, even if you disagree about the challenge, the gameplay in this TAS clearly stands out from unassisted play, and it is no less trivial than other accepted vault runs. As such, it belongs in the vault alongside them.
What do you think your chances are?
I don't know. We'll have to wait and see. But I'm certainly feeling more confident than I did on April 1st, three years ago. I want to thank feos and all the judges for this opportunity to revisit this run. It's reminded me how much I enjoyed making it, and I'm looking forward to the day when I have enough free time again to pick up and do my next one.
Files:
HDD, 16 tracks, 63 sectors, 16 sides.
Timestamp
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Nach: This software doesn't provide much in the way of entertainment, and educational titles are not acceptable for the Vault. Rejecting.
feos: Unrejecting to test the limits of the current triviality rule.
feos: Changed the branch to "maximum score" since there's no pre-determined amount of points you get all of, and you can probably gain more if you play better.
c-square: Cancelling until score attack becomes an accepted category.
c-square: With Score Attack now an approved goal for Standard, and the triviality clause removed, I believe (hope!) all barriers to publication for this run are now gone. Un-cancelling for judging based on the latest acceptance criteria for Standard runs.
feos: Even though this run could be improved by ~10 seconds if RNG was manipulated better, the rest seems to be a valid record in score (first) and and time (second). Accepting.
UPDATE: My apologies for the copyrighted links. It was late and I was tired, but I still should have known better.
I did some thinking, and what it boils down to is this:
This TAS is destined to be rejected again because it doesn't have the entertainment value to make Moons, and Vault doesn't permit non-speed-based runs. And I fully accept that.
What I want is, at some point in time when Score Attack runs are permitted, to have the opportunity to reopen this for judging. I ask that the question of triviality not be pre-judged here and now, but left open for discussion in the future. This way, the run is free to be adjudicated on its merits against the site rules at that time, and is not weighed down by any judgement of triviality made today.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
c-square wrote:
I ask that the question of triviality not be pre-judged here and now, but left open for discussion in the future. This way, the run is free to be adjudicated on its merits against the site rules at that time, and is not weighed down by any judgement of triviality made today.
That's a fair request! You can even cancel this until then, and uncancel whenever things change. Anything that would be put in the rejection note would basically repeat what is already said in the thread, and you won't be able to unreject it yourself if we reject it.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I ask that the question of triviality not be pre-judged here and now, but left open for discussion in the future. This way, the run is free to be adjudicated on its merits against the site rules at that time, and is not weighed down by any judgement of triviality made today.
That's a fair request! You can even cancel this until then, and uncancel whenever things change. Anything that would be put in the rejection note would basically repeat what is already said in the thread, and you won't be able to unreject it yourself if we reject it.
Thanks, that sounds great! Cancelling for now; to be brought out of stasis in the future!
I have a question about the canceling message. Isn't maximum score acceptable category? I'm pretty sure there are maximum score publications. I really think this could be one of them.
DJ Incendration
Believe in Michael Girard and every speedrunner and TASer!
I have a question about the canceling message. Isn't maximum score acceptable category? I'm pretty sure there are maximum score publications. I really think this could be one of them.
Thanks, DJ! I've been away from the site for a long time and for some reason I didn't get notified you posted this. I've reopened the submission and I've got my fingers crossed this will get published this time (third time's a charm!).
I voted yes.
Is the order of sentences in level 3 fixed? Or is it random? If RNG manipulation is possible, then it may be possible to optimize for real time by getting sentences that are as long as possible. My reasoning is that the timer doesn't count down during the pipe transition cutscenes, each of which takes about 10 seconds. The 5:00 timer takes 8:42 of real time to count down. The last pipe transition cutscene happens when the timer reads 4:59, which means that if any of the earlier active typing segments had lasted even 1 second longer, it would have saved 10 seconds of real time with the same high score.
But if the order of sentences is fixed, then it really is an autoscroller and I don't see any way to improve it.
I voted yes.
Is the order of sentences in level 3 fixed? Or is it random? If RNG manipulation is possible, then it may be possible to optimize for real time by getting sentences that are as long as possible. My reasoning is that the timer doesn't count down during the pipe transition cutscenes, each of which takes about 10 seconds. The 5:00 timer takes 8:42 of real time to count down. The last pipe transition cutscene happens when the timer reads 4:59, which means that if any of the earlier active typing segments had lasted even 1 second longer, it would have saved 10 seconds of real time with the same high score.
But if the order of sentences is fixed, then it really is an autoscroller and I don't see any way to improve it.
Thanks, Sand! If memory serves, level 3 chooses randomly from a set of pre-defined lists of sentences, and chooses randomly to start at one of the "start points" in the list. It then moves systematically through the list until it gets to the end and then jumps back to the beginning of the chosen list, repeating as many times as needed. So, while the answer to your question is "yes, the order of the sentences is fixed", one could manipulate which list is chosen or the starting point on the list, potentially resulting in a shorter time for level 3, which matches the spirit of what you were saying. That said, fastest completion time is not a secondary goal of this run, so I don't think it matters in this case.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
c-square wrote:
That said, fastest completion time is not a secondary goal of this run, so I don't think it matters in this case.
Wait doesn't it aim for speed at all?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I didn't mean to suggest more work for c-square. On further reflection, it may not be possible to continue satisfying the "maximum score" objective in levels 1 and 2 while also manipulating level 3. I guess it depends on how the RNG works and whether it is possible to manipulate without sacrificing score.
That said, fastest completion time is not a secondary goal of this run, so I don't think it matters in this case.
Wait doesn't it aim for speed at all?
No, it does not. In this game, aiming for both speed and score is impossible since the more letters you type, the slower the run is. This is primarily due to the transition screens in level 3, but there's also lag on at least level 1, and perhaps the others too. While I did strive to optimize inputs in boot up and menuing, the only goal of the run to attain the highest score possible at the expense of fastest completion time.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I mean isn't this what fastest time as a secondary goal means? You maximize the primary criterion (score), and then whenever it won't sacrifice the score, you also optimize time, no?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I mean isn't this what fastest time as a secondary goal means? You maximize the primary criterion (score), and then whenever it won't sacrifice the score, you also optimize time, no?
True. I guess in end I didn’t want to have to deal with considerations like RNG or perfect menuing, when what entertainment value there is in the run is totally captured by the super-human typing that is covered in the primary goal. I really don’t see having Fastest Completion as a secondary goal adding any more entertainment value than is already there.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11478
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'm still not sure. If the run was optimized for maximum score first (as it is) and then for minimal time second, how much shorter would the movie be, roughly?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
I'm still not sure. If the run was optimized for maximum score first (as it is) and then for minimal time second, how much shorter would the movie be, roughly?
It would be roughly 10 seconds shorter because, as Sand mentioned, it might be possible to find another RNG seed that would eliminate the last screen transition on level 3.
