Posted: 12/8/2021 12:36 PM
Post subject: Do we really need Torrent for encodes?
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ThunderAxe31
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I'm currently trying to figure out improvements for the site code, specifically the interface for displaying the movie pages, and I have a lot of ideas that will submit to the staff for review. But before that, there is one thing that I think it should be removed, because it makes things unnecessary more convoluted: Torrents. In 2019, feos asked on the forum what's the main watching method that people use, and it turned out that only a minority uses downloadables compared to watching on YouTube. Over two years and half later, that is one month ago, feos asked again and the percentage of people using downloadables turned out to have become even smaller. Now, keep note that only an even smaller part of these people does download these files through Torrent, instead than using directly their internet browser. Then, keep note that most people that use Torrent do keep in seed these encodes only for a certain amount of time. Then, keep note that there are way more new publications that what most users are willing to watch at all... Do you see where I'm getting at? Torrent downloadables were introduced on TASVideos back in 2006 (or 2005?), when internet was still sloooow and streaming services were out of question. Now everyone get to watch their favorite TASes quicker by just clicking on the YouTube link, and even watching directly through movie file is quicker and simpler than setting up a Torrent client, opening and closing windows, cleaning up files and the settings, etc. So, why not removing this archaeological repertoire in order to make it less confusing for newcomers and simpler for encoders?
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Posted: 12/8/2021 1:00 PM
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despoa
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The only justification I can think of is in case the YouTube and Archive.org links go down, we have torrents as a final backup.
Posted: 12/8/2021 1:38 PM
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ThunderAxe31
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despoa wrote:
The only justification I can think of is in case the YouTube and Archive.org links go down, we have torrents as a final backup.
But how could that work, if there are no people seeding in first place? And even if there were, it would be a mess of many different people hosting different encodes, and the users would be forced to wait and hope for the right people to turn on their PC while they do, which sometimes is impossible due to timezones and personal reasons. If you need a "final backup" it makes more sense to store all the encodes locally, on a bunch of physical hard disks bought specifically for the purpose, so that in the worst case scenario the data can still be restored. If instead you need an emergency alternative for users to access the encodes right away in case of need, then it would make sense to start uploading now on other sites, in addition to YouTube and Archive.org.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Posted: 12/8/2021 1:54 PM
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P.JBoy
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Distributed backups have the plus that a rogue admin can't completely obliterate them. The YT channel can get taken down at the drop of a hat, and it's far from unforseeable. Archive, less so, but it could happen; content control laws only ever get stricter and more takedown-friendly. You can think of other mirrors to host on, but they'll all have this problem
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:03 PM
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ThunderAxe31
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P.JBoy wrote:
Distributed backups have the plus that a rogue admin can't completely obliterate them.
We can have multiple different people keeping local backups, that's still a form of distributed backup. Maybe not for every single publication, but at least for the most sync-unfriendly ones (Dolphin, N64, FBA-rr, etc). The rest can be restored from movie files anyway.
P.JBoy wrote:
The YT channel can get taken down at the drop of a hat, and it's far from unforseeable. Archive, less so, but it could happen; content control laws only ever get stricter and more takedown-friendly. You can think of other mirrors to host on, but they'll all have this problem
True, but if you use multiple different hosting services at same time, it's virtually impossible they all disappear at the very same time.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:09 PM
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P.JBoy
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So what's the argument against torrents anyways? I feel like they fulfil the role of being such a different hosting service
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:30 PM
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ThunderAxe31
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The argument is that no one is keeping torrents in seed. I'll say it for the third time: how can torrents work as a backup, if no one is seeding them? How many encodes are you seeding yourself right now?
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:34 PM
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feos
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NES TAS of 2011
Our torrents are only ever actually seeded by Archive. Nobody stores random encodes locally just to seed them. If archive takes it down, it will die, even if one has a torrent file for it. Even download speed via torrent is the same as direct download speed from Archive. So until our torrents start doing the thing torrent exists for, they're useless.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:39 PM
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P.JBoy
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Well fair enough then, if they have no value and they're a nuisance, no reason to keep them
Posted: 12/8/2021 2:57 PM
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ThunderAxe31
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I have nothing against allowing a de-centralized way of keeping backups of encodes. My problem is that as things are now, torrents are actually used as a watching option for casual users, which really doesn't make sense. And they don't work much as a form of backup, either; I'm in full favor of having additional and more reliable systems for backing up encodes, even via Torrent itself if that's preferred, but it needs to be a properly set up and maintained system, specifically made for the purpose of having a backup, and not as a watching option for casual visitors.
my personal page - my YouTube channel - my GitHub - my Discord: thunderaxe31 <Masterjun> if you look at the "NES" in a weird angle, it actually clearly says "GBA"
Posted: 12/9/2021 2:38 AM
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Dacicus
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I have no preference regarding what is done with torrents, but this is what I recall from my most recent stint as an encoder/publisher: My practice was to seed a torrent for at least one week after uploading the encode. It was rare that the torrent client recorded even transferring one byte to someone else. I don't remember which movies were the exception, but they were outliers in a mass of no activity. As far as backups go, I believe that I still have copies of all of the active encodes that I made for the site. Active meaning the most recent good encode if I had to redo one because of some error.
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