http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=477159#477159
SmashManiac brought up the discussion regarding the ending sequence of certain Final Fantasy 6 movies in this submission. The staff response addressed why the SM64DS submission was acceptable but didn't comment on the FF6 example.
That being said, if ending sequence disruption is permitted for games where the ending doesn't even update the save file, shall [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 be moved to be branchless with the current branchless movie rebranched to be "glitchless" or something similar if applicable?
This is assuming the ending sequence of FF6 on SNES isn't meant to have effects. I don't know enough about this game to tell if that's the case.
feos wrote:
My first question is, are "warp glitch", "out of bounds", and "zips", the same thing?
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Fortranm wrote:
That being said, if ending sequence disruption is permitted for games where the ending doesn't even update the save file, shall [2725] SNES Final Fantasy VI by keylie & KadMony in 3:11:39.46 be moved to be branchless with the current branchless movie rebranched to be "glitchless" or something similar if applicable?
This is assuming the ending sequence of FF6 on SNES isn't meant to have effects. I don't know enough about this game to tell if that's the case.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
feos wrote:
My first question is, are "warp glitch", "out of bounds", and "zips", the same thing?
They're all related, but different enough to warrant the usage of separate categories in my opinion. Both zipping and the death glitch allow you to go out of bounds, but death glitch allows for a lot more freedom in where you can go. Basically, loading certain "rooms" out of bounds will crash the game, which limits how powerful zipping is as you're always going through room transitions. Death glitch completely disables room transitions, allowing for essentially unimpeded map traversal, including through OoB areas that would otherwise crash the game since they're not being loaded.
Death glitch and zipping are both used in the published "all souls" movie, where Kriole's movie avoids them completely, and the routes differ drastically between the two runs.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Samsara wrote:
They're all related, but different enough to warrant the usage of separate categories in my opinion. Both zipping and the death glitch allow you to go out of bounds, but death glitch allows for a lot more freedom in where you can go. Basically, loading certain "rooms" out of bounds will crash the game, which limits how powerful zipping is as you're always going through room transitions. Death glitch completely disables room transitions, allowing for essentially unimpeded map traversal, including through OoB areas that would otherwise crash the game since they're not being loaded.
Death glitch and zipping are both used in the published "all souls" movie, where Kriole's movie avoids them completely, and the routes differ drastically between the two runs.
Sounds like we want to resurrect it as "all souls, inbounds", with that label, so it's clear that it's a special limitation? Are there other branches avoiding OOB? And how does the warp glitch compare to those 2 other glitches?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
feos wrote:
Sounds like we want to resurrect it as "all souls, inbounds", with that label, so it's clear that it's a special limitation? Are there other branches avoiding OOB? And how does the warp glitch compare to those 2 other glitches?
[1478] GBA Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow by Kriole in 20:58.62 also avoids OoB glitches. I feel like if we revive all souls, this run should similarly be branched as "inbounds". "warp glitch" should also be rebranched to GEG, but that's not relevant to the discussion.
The death glitch is the warp glitch, my apologies for not being clearer about that. Prior to that glitch being discovered and used, the glitched Aria of Sorrow publication only used zipping, and was branchless. Holy hell did we really have two branchless runs of AoS published at the same time at one point, what is with this game ._.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
So only those 2 branches would be inbounds, and all the runs they obsolete?
Samsara wrote:
"warp glitch" should also be rebranched to GEG, but that's not relevant to the discussion.
Done!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
So only those 2 branches would be inbounds, and all the runs they obsolete?
Correct. There's a bit more to talk about with AoS branching, but I'll bring that up in the relevant thread.
Samsara wrote:
"warp glitch" should also be rebranched to GEG, but that's not relevant to the discussion.
Done!
Thank you!
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Samsara wrote:
Correct. There's a bit more to talk about with AoS branching, but I'll bring that up in the relevant thread.
Should I wait with unobsoletion and rebranching then?
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 11/13/2006
Posts: 2821
Location: Northern California
feos wrote:
Samsara wrote:
Correct. There's a bit more to talk about with AoS branching, but I'll bring that up in the relevant thread.
Should I wait with unobsoletion and rebranching then?
What I want to talk about only affects the "warp glitch" obsoletion chain, so these are safe to touch. I'd like to be the one to un-obsolete all souls inbounds, though, since I was the one that decided to obsolete it in the first place, and I like symbolism and accountability.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Go for it!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Once again, I am setting this to accepted, so long as it obsoletes the current Kirby's Avalanche run. I would also like to apologize to the encoder who put forth the time to publish the recent K. A. run while a decision was being made on this submission.
Basically, a movie of the second entry in the series was made to obsolete a movie of the first one.
We don't do this anymore, right?
But then there is the question of whether the release of the first game on Genesis (localized as Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine) is similar enough to the SNES version for cross obsoletion, maybe.
[2252] Genesis Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machine by Flip in 07:15.70
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Do those movies have identical gameplay? I think that should be the only reason for cross-game or cross-port obsoletion, not whether they are "close enough".
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Kirby's Avalanche and Dr. Robotnik's Mean Bean Machin have the same number of stages as we see in the movies. I'm not sure if this counts as apparently identical gameplay.
Of course, this is on the basis of them being localizations of releases of the same base game. Puyo Puyo 2 shouldn't obsolete a localization of Puyo Puyo for sure, even if the core mechanism is identical. It's not like glitchless, gimmickless, plain old Tetrisgames are made to obsolete each other on the same platform.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
I'll watch them ASAP but the article about the second game lists the new mechanics, that are also hopefully there in the port. And yeah, less levels is a silly reason for obsoletion.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
As copied from my message on discord, requested from feos...
"in the snes puyo puyo 2 movie, whenever you see this (left), it's an all clear. basically if you get an all clear, your next puyo pop will have 5 rows of nuisance puyo added to it
margin time doesn't really apply here - after 30/60/99/etc seconds, all nuisance puyos sent between players will be increased
180 flipping puyos doesn't really apply either, since the TASer tends to favor a low board as opposed to making tall columns
nuisance puyo countering happens a few times in the movie - basically, if there's nuisance puyo waiting to fall into your board, you can create a chain to mitigate or even counter it completely. sometimes the AI is able to make a 1-chain just before the nuisance puyo falls in, cancelling about 1 or less nuisance puyo from the TASer (needless to say, not enough to prevent being defeated). 1:29 is an example of this"
Additionally, in the kirby's avalanche encode, at 2:22, you can see that the opposing AI clears puyo while they have nuisance puyo waiting to fall. The cleared puyo go to the TASer instead of cancelling any of the waiting nuisance puyo.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Unobsoleted Kirby's Avalanche.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
They are completely different indeed. And 1p doesn't even look like some sloppy 2004 crap at all! Unobsoleted.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
[434] NES Air by Genisto in 09:12.42[1063] NES Air 2 by mushroom in 08:02.57
I've talked with adelikat and Memory about this and I think we've come to conclusion that romhacks shouldn't obsolete other romhacks anymore. However, Samsara brought up that Air and Air 2 are very similar to each other, Should both romhacks be removed from the obsoletion chains or just Air 2?
Yeah, Air 2 is basically Air, but without the infinite jumps and with the hidden blocks being translucent. So I'd agree to just have Air 2 removed from the obsoletion chain.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
That obsoletion chain features old approach to hacks, but we haven't decided what we want to do with hacks in the future, especially considering the level of freedom Playground is going to give. I'd leave this obsoletion as is for now.
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
While I'm in no particular hurry to have a Super Metroid hack published, enough people seem to find this one entertaining to warrant acceptance. However, both Nach and I were less than impressed with the overall level design and "polish" of the hack, so I would suggest that a future run of a more impressive hack should probably obsolete this run. Anyway, congrats to the author for the first accepted Super Metroid hack on TASvideos
This should be un-obsoleted if different hacks are no longer supposed to obsolete each other.
I kinda wonder whether this hack in particular would meet the technical requirements for Standard and whether the movie would still be considered entertaining enough for Moon if it were submitted today, but what’s published is published I guess.
Joined: 4/17/2010
Posts: 11473
Location: Lake Chargoggagoggmanchauggagoggchaubunagungamaugg
Fortranm wrote:
This should be un-obsoleted if different hacks are no longer supposed to obsolete each other.
I kinda wonder whether this hack in particular would meet the technical requirements for Standard and whether the movie would still be considered entertaining enough for Moon if it were submitted today, but what’s published is published I guess.
Hacks don't have to be Moons anymore, so they just go to Standard if the movie goal is eligible. And yeah we want to unobsolete hacks that have unique levels.
Also done!
Warning: When making decisions, I try to collect as much data as possible before actually deciding. I try to abstract away and see the principles behind real world events and people's opinions. I try to generalize them and turn into something clear and reusable. I hate depending on unpredictable and having to make lottery guesses. Any problem can be solved by systems thinking and acting.
TASvideos Admin and acting Senior Judge 💙 Currently unable to dedicate a lot of time to the site, taking care of family.
Now infrequently posting on BlueskywarmCabin wrote:
You shouldn't need a degree in computer science to get into this hobby.
Additionally, in the kirby's avalanche encode, at 2:22, you can see that the opposing AI clears puyo while they have nuisance puyo waiting to fall. The cleared puyo go to the TASer instead of cancelling any of the waiting nuisance puyo.
